Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

bgrizzley

Quote:
An honest question; what is the difference between you evading tax, and those who shuffle money offshore to evade paying tax? Do you think either is morally acceptable?

hi blunt, ill give you my take on that if you dont mind.
this is E100(half pint per week, all that jazz) not multiples of millions offshore. its like comparing pinching someone, with murder.

yeah its morally wrong, but why should we adhere to morals when our government dont,
the very man who is bringing in this tax said it was morally wrong a few years ago. he didnt change his moral views on abortion or gay marriage, why this tax?
So why expect us to keep ours?

alastair

bgrizzley wrote: »

the very man who is bringing in this tax said it was morally wrong a few years ago. he didnt change his moral views on abortion or gay marriage, why this tax?
So why expect us to keep ours?

Just a guess: He's got a job to do that involves a completely changed economic reality since he made those comments on property taxes? FF were opposed to property taxes too - but introduced this property tax as part of the bailout.

I've no idea what Enda's moral views on gay marriage or abortion are, but he's certainly keeping quiet about the gay marriage issue, and he's offloaded the abortion legislation question to a committee.

You honestly look to Enda to decide how to engage with the world?

Ghandee

BluntGuy wrote: »

I'd be interested in your answer to this, which Ghandee avoided:



:

What did I avoid?

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

Quote:
An honest question; what is the difference between you evading tax, and those who shuffle money offshore to evade paying tax? Do you think either is morally acceptable?

hi blunt, ill give you my take on that if you dont mind.
this is E100(half pint per week, all that jazz) not multiples of millions offshore. its like comparing pinching someone, with murder.

yeah its morally wrong, but why should we adhere to morals when our government dont,
the very man who is bringing in this tax said it was morally wrong a few years ago. he didnt change his moral views on abortion or gay marriage, why this tax?
So why expect us to keep ours?

Enda Kenny is your moral compass?

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

Just a guess: He's got a job to do that involves a completely changed economic reality since he made those comments on property taxes? FF were opposed to property taxes too - but introduced this property tax as part of the bailout.

I've no idea what Enda's moral views on gay marriage or abortion are, but he's certainly keeping quiet about the gay marriage issue, and he's offloaded the abortion legislation question to a committee.

You honestly look to Enda to decide how to engage with the world?

so any morals are only to do with convenience?

and no, he makes me cringe.....

http://files.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/enda-kenny-nicolas-sarkozy-dimitris-christofias-2012-1-30-10-1-22.jpg

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

Not really - it was a simple enough statement. Not sure why you couldn't follow it.

Because it is rubbish. You are caught on it, and so revert to your usual tactic of trying to claim other posters are having difficulty reading, spelling etc, like you did before in this thread, to avoid the reality of your own nonsense.

Both sides here have valid points to make. But when a poster reverts to the reading level of others etc, as you have done many times with these silly comments to other posters about reading and spelling, it is usually to defer from their own frailties or weak points they made.

You refused to pay the tax in the UK. As a protest. The idea being, to have it abolished. Then you come to Ireland and preach to us about paying another new tax, claiming at least you knew you would end up paying it (poll tax) (which you didnt pay), as some sort of justification for your stance compared to ours. Such tripe.

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

What did I avoid?

When you've answered that man's question, mine is still waiting:

Ghandee wrote: »

Throw good money after bad.

You've lost me then - why would a council tax be utilised any differently than a property tax? You're against any local authority funding then?

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Enda Kenny is your moral compass?

i didnt say that, for the record i am pro choice and pro gay marriage

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

When you've answered that man's question, mine is still waiting:

i cant see that either would be used any differently. i would have no problem paying either(and multiples of what they are looking for) as long as they were attached to me personally, not my home.
Happy?

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

You refused to pay the tax in the UK. As a protest. The idea being, to have it abolished. Then you come to Ireland and preach to us about paying another new tax, claiming at least you knew you would end up paying it (poll tax) (which you didnt pay), as some sort of justification for your stance compared to ours. Such tripe.

You don't like it? Sorry about that - but it's not tripe.

I knew I'd have to pay - opponents of property taxes believe otherwise
I knew it was a tax - opponents of property taxes claim otherwise
I was quite open about my tax evasion - the same can't be said for opponents on this thread
The poll tax had an injustice at it's heart that doesn't apply to property taxation
I didn't delude myself as to where the revenues of the tax were going - which can't be said of opponents to the property tax.

alastair

bgrizzley wrote: »

i cant see that either would be used any differently. i would have no problem paying either(and multiples of what they are looking for) as long as they were attached to me personally, not my home.
Happy?

That's something of a change of position, but thanks for the answer.

alastair

bgrizzley wrote: »

i didnt say that, for the record i am pro choice and pro gay marriage

So - you actually don't care about Enda's morality? That was just a distraction?

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

That's something of a change of position, but thanks for the answer.

trawl back through my posts if you want, i havent changed position . i always said i would pay more tax , just not on my home.
i've had enough with their insidious control on everything. my home is their last stop with me

alastair wrote: »

So - you actually don't care about Enda's morality? That was just a distraction?

i can respect someones morals even though i disagree with them, you should try it. we have the same opinion on the morality of the HHC anyway (or do we, i can never tell with his flipfloping)

alastair

bgrizzley wrote: »

trawl back through my posts if you want, i havent changed position .

You seemed to say that the HHC revenue would be wasted, while a council tax wouldn't. I'm assuming you're not saying that now?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79842607&postcount=5509

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

You seemed to say that the HHC revenue would be wasted, while a council tax wouldn't. I'm assuming you're not saying that now?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79842607&postcount=5509

i think you are mixing me up with Ghandee .
for the record i think it will be wasted either way, i still dont mind paying it cause waste is what government is all about, im just not going to pay it via my home......

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

You don't like it? Sorry about that - but it's not tripe.

I knew I'd have to pay - opponents of property taxes believe otherwise

But you didnt pay, and that would be the intention of your refuse to pay protest.

I was quite open about my tax evasion - the same can't be said for opponensts on this thread

Not everyone that opposes a tax is evading a tax

The poll tax had an injustice at it's heart that doesn't apply to property taxation

What was that injustice?
I believe it is unjust to tax a persons family home. Just because you think it is just, does not mean it is. And I say that because you seem to believe you alone have the right to make that judgement. Whether people believe they will end up paying it or not, is not a factor in that belief, despite you claiming this as a factor that separates their view from yours.

I didn't delude myself as to where the revenues of the tax were going - which can't be said of opponents to the property tax.

To me, its all the same where it goes. Direct to local authority just means central have to pay them less (which is likely more efficient alright), so this ringfence stuff is simply watching where actual euro notes handed over a counter, end up going.

Local government or central government both get their monies from tax payers anyway.

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

i didnt say that, for the record i am pro choice and pro gay marriage

But you suspend your morals depending on what EK does. They're not really morals at all, are they?

BluntGuy

Ghandee wrote: »

What did I avoid?

An honest question; what is the difference between you evading tax, and those who shuffle money offshore to evade paying tax? Do you think either is morally acceptable?

hi blunt, ill give you my take on that if you dont mind.
this is E100(half pint per week, all that jazz) not multiples of millions offshore. its like comparing pinching someone, with murder.

yeah its morally wrong, but why should we adhere to morals when our government dont,

But does it not undermine one's argument when they're doing exactly the same thing as those they criticise. I've felt for a long time that the problems in the society transcend class divides. Greed, selfishness and lack of social conscientiousness is rife at all levels of society. Our political classes reflect much of the population - trying to get a quick buck at the expense of "the system", and then rationalising it as some kind of principled moral stand.
111
Not paying the household charge isn't hurting "the government" or "the bankers", it's hurting us. Our fellow taxpayers. You won't find me making arguments against the idea of tackling the inequality in society, because personally I don't see the increasing gap between rich and poor being sustainable in the long term. In all previous civilisations it hasn't been, and I see this being no different. But you will find me making arguments against the idea that a nebulous "they" should be made to pay for services, or that denying the government of the revenue it requires to provide services is particularly helpful or moral.

the very man who is bringing in this tax said it was morally wrong a few years ago. he didnt change his moral views on abortion or gay marriage, why this tax?
So why expect us to keep ours?

Eh, I don't see what Enda's personal views on those have to do with this.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

But you suspend your morals depending on what EK does. They're not really morals at all, are they?

???? this kind of circular argument is not what i expect from you, but ill play along.

go on DV, tell me how i suspend them.

Bruthal

We should all go for a few pints:D

bgrizzley

BluntGuy wrote: »

But does it not undermine one's argument when they're doing exactly the same thing as those they criticise. I've felt for a long time that the problems in the society transcend class divides. Greed, selfishness and lack of social conscientiousness is rife at all levels of society. Our political classes reflect much of the population - trying to get a quick buck at the expense of "the system", and then rationalising it as some kind of principled moral stand.
111
Not paying the household charge isn't hurting "the government" or "the bankers", it's hurting us. Our fellow taxpayers. You won't find me making arguments against the idea of tackling the inequality in society, because personally I don't see the increasing gap between rich and poor being sustainable in the long term. In all previous civilisations it hasn't been, and I see this being no different. But you will find me making arguments against the idea that a nebulous "they" should be made to pay for services, or that denying the government of the revenue it requires to provide services is particularly helpful or moral.



Eh, I don't see what Enda's personal views on those have to do with this.

you make some good points, but im not trying to hurt the government, and if your argument is that im only hurting myself by not paying then i cant see why it even bothers you.

maybe you are right on the personal views but enda brought up the morality, i didnt. if he can deal with his crisis of conscience on the HHC why cant he do it for other moral issues?

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

But you didnt pay, and that would be the intention of your refuse to pay protest.

The intention was to protest - the expectation was that I would have to pay.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Not everyone that opposes a tax is evading a tax

They are if they don't pay that tax.

robbie7730 wrote: »

What was that injustice?

A regressive tax that benefitted the most wealthy, while increasing the burden on those able to pay. Decrreasing the level of support for local authorities, and reducing their capacity to provide services.

robbie7730 wrote: »

I believe it is unjust to tax a persons family home. Just because you think it is just, does not mean it is. And I say that because you seem to believe you alone have the right to make that judgement. .

I believe no such thing. I'm just pointing out that no-one has been able to articulate a justice argument against property taxation. Stating 'It's MY home', or 'I paid stamp duty', or 'I don't want to support local authority housing' are not justice-based arguments.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Whether people believe they will end up paying it or not, is not a factor in that belief, despite you claiming this as a factor that separates their view from yours.

It is a distinction - one position is pragmatic, the other delusional.

robbie7730 wrote: »

To me, its all the same where it goes. Direct to local authority just means central have to pay them less (which is likely more efficient alright), so this ringfence stuff is simply watching where actual euro notes handed over a counter, end up going. .

You're not representative of many on this thread - who simply won't engage with the reality that the earmark is enshrined in law.

robbie7730 wrote: »

Local government or central government both get their monies from tax payers anyway.

Yep. But some of that non-earmarked money is going to pay off bank debt - which seems to be a big motivator for some.

bgrizzley

robbie7730 wrote: »

We should all go for a few pints:D

lol that would be the best session ever.
HALF PINTS ALL AROUND ON ME.............:p

tayto lover

alastair wrote: »

If you're going on the back of a member - or on open days - you're being subsidised - simple principle enough to follow.

I play other courses regularly for far less than 25e and not with a member signing me in at all. The facts are in the sites I quoted so read them. No piggy-backing at all. Where's the list of courses anywhere near North Louth then ?

Bruthal

bgrizzley wrote: »

lol that would be the best session ever.
HALF PINTS ALL AROUND ON ME.............:p

It would be some laugh alright. Talking about the hhc would have to be banned:D

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

I play other courses regularly for far less than 25e and not with a member signing me in at all. The facts are in the sites I quoted so read them. No piggy-backing at all. Where's the list of courses anywhere near North Louth then ?

I have never set foot on a golf course in my life, so I suspect you know better than I where your nearest public golf course is. There are 100 of them nationally - accessible seven days a week, with no need for piggybacking (even if they don't have to sign you in) someone else's membership ever. Aren't those courses you're going to in another state then? Private courses in your own county too expensive?

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

.
yeah its morally wrong, but why should we adhere to morals when our government dont,
[...]
So why expect us to keep ours?

bgrizzley wrote: »

go on DV, tell me how i suspend them.

See above.

tayto lover

alastair wrote: »

I have never set foot on a golf course in my life, so I suspect you know better than I where your nearest public golf course is. There are 100 of them nationally - accessible seven days a week, with no need for piggybacking (even if they don't have to sign you in) someone else's membership ever. Aren't those courses you're going to in another state then? Private courses in your own county too expensive?

You can play my course, Mannan Castle, for 20e as a visitor. I pay membership so don't pay green fees at all. That dispels your argument completely. Where is the list of 100 council courses because I don't believe there are anywhere near that many--
http://www.mannancastlegolfclub.ie/visitors/green-fees

bgrizzley

thats fair enough, i thought you were refering to my beliefs on marriage and abortion.
i am immoral, so endeth the lesson..........

alastair

tayto lover wrote: »

You can play my course, Mannan Castle, for 20e as a visitor. I pay membership so don't pay green fees at all. That dispels your argument completely. Where is the list of 100 council courses because I don't believe there are anywhere near that many--
http://www.mannancastlegolfclub.ie/visitors/green-fees

You would be subsidising my playing as a visitor - what's your membership cost each year? Doesn't really impact on my argument at all.

http://www.johncradden.ie/2011/05/05/golf-on-the-cheap/