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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #5702
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    You've lost me then - why would a council tax be utilised any differently than a property tax? You're against any local authority funding then?

    A council tax like in the the UK (or rates in the six counties) are payable to ensure you receive services from the council.

    A property tax inn Ireland, we're told will go to services, yet we still pay for our services, refuse collection, education, health care, tolled roads etc etc etc.

    Insult to injury, we pay a higher rate of vat ON TOP of these charges.

    So, to answer your question, a council tax implies it will go towards a council to provide you with services.

    A property tax, is a tax imposed on someone that owns a property, (and does not bring any services we aren't already paying for separately)

    Question answered.


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    #5703
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    You would be subsidising my playing as a visitor - what's your membership cost each year? Doesn't really impact on my argument at all.

    http://www.johncradden.ie/2011/05/05/golf-on-the-cheap/

    Ha those are not public courses. There are only a few public courses. Corballis is one but it's not much better than a pitch and putt course and not even worth the 20e to play. I have played it.
    Mannan Castle is 660e per year for me as I have been a member from the start -

    http://www.mannancastlegolfclub.ie/visitors/join-mannan-castle/160-subscription-rates-2012


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    #5704
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    A council tax like in the the UK (or rates in the six counties) are payable to ensure you receive services from the council.

    A property tax inn Ireland, we're told will go to services, yet we still pay for our services, refuse collection, education, health care, tolled roads etc etc etc.

    Insult to injury, we pay a higher rate of vat ON TOP of these charges.

    So, to answer your question, a council tax implies it will go towards a council to provide you with services.

    A property tax, is a tax imposed on someone that owns a property, (and does not bring any services we aren't already paying for separately)

    Question answered.

    It's a property tax earmarked 100% for local authority services, and regardless of the VAT rates, you're still being taxed less overall than you would in the UK.

    Tax payers in the UK pay council charges towards local authority services, alongside general taxation, which is also directed towards local authority services.


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    #5705
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Ha those are not public courses. There are only a few public courses.
    From the link provided:
    Of course you can always pay to play at one of the country’s 100 local-authority courses for green fees starting at €20, but joining a private club is still the most popular choice for a serious golfer, offering familiar surroundings and social facilities.
    tayto lover wrote: »
    Corballis is one but it's not much better than a pitch and putt course and not even worth the 20e to play. I have played it.
    Mannan Castle is 660e per year for me as I have been a member from the start -

    http://www.mannancastlegolfclub.ie/visitors/join-mannan-castle/160-subscription-rates-2012

    So - the real cost for a visitor to play at Mannan Castle is subsidised by you to the tune of 660 per annum. Which was my point.


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    #5706
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    From the link provided:




    So - the real cost for a visitor to play at Mannan Castle is subsidised by you to the tune of 660 per annum. Which was my point.

    Not true. I don't subsidise anyone. You might as well relate that kind of argument to a shop or business. In fact people who paid their poll tax subsidised you if that is your argument.


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    #5707
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    It's a property tax earmarked 100% for local authority services, and regardless of the VAT rates, you're still being taxed less overall than you would in the UK.

    Tax payers in the UK pay council charges towards local authority services, alongside general taxation, which is also directed towards local authority services.

    you forget to point out that in the UK they get something in return for their money.


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    #5708
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Not true. I don't subsidise anyone. You might as well relate that kind of argument to a shop or business. In fact people who paid their poll tax subsidised you if that is your argument.

    You think they could charge 20 euro if they didn't have their membership fee revenues? What exactly do you pay those membership fees for then? :p
    Of course you're subsidising the vistor fees.

    Those who did pay their poll tax did indeed end up subsidising me - no argument.


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    #5709
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    you forget to point out that in the UK they get something in return for their money.

    As do we.


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    #5710
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    You think they could charge 20 euro if they didn't have their membership fee revenues? Why exactly do you pay those membership fees for then? :p
    Of course you're subsidising the vistor fees.

    Those who did pay their poll tax did indeed end up subsidising me - no argument.

    I pay it to be a shareholder and to have golf beside me, simple. I provide a service for myself.


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    #5711
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I pay it to be a shareholder and to have golf beside me, simple. I provide a service for myself.

    And you honestly believe that they could afford to charge 20 euro a shot for everyone - without the additional revenue that membership fees bring in?


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    #5712
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    And you honestly believe that they could afford to charge 20 euro a shot for everyone - without the additional revenue that membership fees bring in?

    We love to see them coming but we could survive without it.


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    #5713
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    We love to see them coming but we could survive without it.

    You're not getting me.

    Do you think that the course could survive on just charging everyone a green fee of 20 euro - without the additional income of the current membership fees?

    No membership fees - just a flat green fee of 20 euro for one and all.


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    #5714
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    i can tell you one thing Alastair. if i had a few extra people coming into my business every day and giving me a few quid extra for services that were already there, and not costing me anything more, i wouldnt have the cheek to tell them anyone else was subsidising them.

    id be damned appreciative of the extra business.


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    #5715
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    You're not getting me.

    Do you think that the course could survive on just charging everyone a green fee of 20 euro - without the additional income of the current membership fees?

    No membership fees - just a flat green fee of 20 euro for one and all.

    We don't need green fees to survive. We own the course and we pay our own membership fees annually. Members don't pay green fees but we pay a competition fee to pay for prizes. We also paid an initial "joining" fee but that is gone now.


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    #5716
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    i can tell you one thing Alastair. if i had a few extra people coming into my business every day and giving me a few quid extra for services that were already there, and not costing me anything more, i wouldnt have the cheek to tell them anyone else was subsidising them.

    id be damned appreciative of the extra business.

    Let me ask you this - do you acknowledge that the visitor green fees on that course are subsidised by the club member's fees?

    ...regardless of whether anyone tells their punters this or not.


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    #5717
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    We don't need green fees to survive. We own the course and we pay our own membership fees annually. Members don't pay green fees but we pay a competition fee to pay for prizes. We also paid an initial "joining" fee but that is gone now.

    That's all well and good but...

    Do you think that the course could survive on just charging everyone a green fee of 20 euro - without the additional income of the current membership fees?

    No membership fees - just a flat green fee of 20 euro for one and all.


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    #5718
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Jesus, I'm getting dizzy looking at alastairs posts, around in circles all the time.
    It's like he's been brainwashed. ****ing Rain man!


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    #5719
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    That's all well and good but...

    Do you think that the course could survive on just charging everyone a green fee of 20 euro - without the additional income of the current membership fees?

    No membership fees - just a flat green fee of 20 euro for one and all.

    Yes we could but we will always have membership fees. If we ever sell it we would make a nice little bit too as we are share holders. You won't get anything from a council course if it's sold.


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    #5720
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Yes we could.

    What's the running cost of the club and course annually?
    How many green fees would be needed to cover this overhead?


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    #5721
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    Let me ask you this - do you acknowledge that the visitor green fees on that course are subsidised by the club member's fees?

    ...regardless of whether anyone tells their punters this or not.

    i do see where you are coming from, but i would imagine that club members have more rights and say over the club than someone who walks in and gives E20 for a quick game, so no. im sure at E20 you could be refused if the club was busy.
    i would think the manager of that club would be very dissapointed if he lost 10 players at 20ea over the course of the day, thats E200 off the wage bill for the day. money for old rope


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    #5722
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Lets lighten the mood, I was watching Harry Enfield last night, he's very funny.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsFtiruIok


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    #5723
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Jaysus..... I never thought I'd see the day.
    No turf cutting, but golf courses, green fees, and property taxes.
    You may as well dunk the tricolour in grey paint and be done with it.


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    #5724
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    What's the running cost of the club and course annually?
    How many green fees would be needed to cover this overhead?

    Have no intention of looking that up tbh. We are self-sufficient.
    Going to watch Dublin v Meath now.


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    #5725
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Have no intention of looking that up tbh. We are self-sufficient.
    Going to watch Dublin v Meath now.

    Don't think that would be alastair's cup of tea:D


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    #5726
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    i do see where you are coming from, but i would imagine that club members have more rights and say over the club than someone who walks in and gives E20 for a quick game, so no. im sure at E20 you could be refused if the club was busy.
    i would think the manager of that club would be very dissapointed if he lost 10 players at 20ea over the course of the day, thats E200 off the wage bill for the day. money for old rope

    No doubt that members get advantage for their fees, and that the club would miss the visitor's green fees - but the reality is that the course couldn't afford to charge green fees of 20 euro without the subvention/subsidy that the members' fees provide.

    Whether Tayto believes it or not - he's subsidising visitors, just as he's subsidised as a visitor to other clubs.


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    #5727
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Have no intention of looking that up tbh. We are self-sufficient.

    Sure - on the back of member's fees. To the tune of circa a half million per year.


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    #5728
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,824 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    people in LA housing avail of more services and pay less, on the flip side people who already pay for there house availe of less LA services yet have to pay more.


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    #5729
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Hijpo wrote: »
    people in LA housing avail of more services and pay less, on the flip side people who already pay for there house availe of less LA services yet have to pay more.

    You think that annual rent in local authority housing amounts to less than what you're being asked to pay in property tax? A single occupant of a Dublin local authority premises will pay up to 5 grand a year in rent - a family twice that. Who's paying less for LA services in those cases - you or them?


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    #5730
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,824 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    them, 5k a year for a roof and the services that come with it? the money that most of them use to pay for the rent comes from a pot they contribute little to in the first place.

    are you going to make the "they buy mars bar's, mars bars carry vat, LA budgets are contributed to by other forms of tax so technically they still pay for the services" argument to show how they indirectly pay for things?


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    #5731
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    You think that annual rent in local authority housing amounts to less than what you're being asked to pay in property tax? A single occupant of a Dublin local authority premises will pay up to 5 grand a year in rent - a family twice that. Who's paying less for LA services in those cases - you or them?

    They pay less.
    Our taxes subsidise their housing......... a local authority service.

    Your line of thinking is very confused.


This discussion has been closed.
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