Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

how many does that leave that will be made to pay?

Council houses (that cost the LA more than a private house, yet private houses are the only ones expected to pay there way) are exempt, anyone on the dole wont have a wage to hit.

This has the "shortfall" excuse writen all over it when the tax goes up and up and up each year.

I think it was reported iirc that Council tenants would have to pay something too. People on the dole will have their social welfare to hit too.

chainsawman

Following an example of great Politican Rev Ian Paisley of DUP of Northern Ireland... Never, Never, Never...:D

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

I think it was reported iirc that Council tenants would have to pay something too. People on the dole will have their social welfare to hit too.

Something is pretty vague lol

just not as much as the home owner that costs the LA a fraction of the council tennants costs, even though most council tennants have the pay less for everything.

All this uncertainty is further off putting, the only definite answer is "were taking it" but they dont know how much and very few are liable for the full charge, whatever that may be.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

Something is pretty vague lol

just not as much as the home owner that costs the LA a fraction of the council tennants costs, even though most council tennants have the pay less for everything.

All this uncertainty is further off putting, the only definite answer is "were taking it" but they dont know how much and very few are liable for the full charge, whatever that may be.

Well for the minute alls we know is we are going to pay something until we are told what that will be we can but guess.

My point was that I read somewhere that LA tenants will be paying also.

People are complaining that its not fair because the LA tenants dont pay anything which I agree with, so when they are told they must pay a property charge will these people stop complaining, or will they simply complain about something else?

darkhorse

Hijpo wrote: »

how many does that leave that will be made to pay?

Council houses (that cost the LA more than a private house, yet private houses are the only ones expected to pay there way) are exempt, anyone on the dole wont have a wage to hit.

This has the "shortfall" excuse writen all over it when the tax goes up and up and up each year.

I was just thinking along the same lines as you mention. In fact, I know a lot of people in council houses and I appreciate the fact that none of the decisions regarding exemptions are their decisions. However, as I stated in a post much earlier in this forum, why, when I am paying several hundred more per month for a mortgage than my LA counterpart, does the govt. believe that I might be in a better financial position to pay a charge/tax. According to the authorities, I am deemed to own my house because I am paying a mortgage. The reality is, I will not own my house for at least another twenty years, until I have paid the last payment. But because of the charges coming down the line, I will never own this house, which up to now, we have regarded as our home, I will have to sell, because I will not be able to afford any more charges on top of all the cuts that I have already endured, therefore I will find myself back to square one, having to put my name on the LA waiting list to be housed. Given the fact that at least a half dozen of my friends are worse of than me, it looks like I may not be on my own in my future endeaver to sell up. Now, I am not even in arrears with my mortgage as yet, but its getting tight. So, at the moment, I am saving the state money, but the state is going to change all that, because, I will, sometime in the future have to be housed, which means I will be exempt. So, please, one of you more educated, smart people out there, explain to me and everyone thats in my position, how does it make sense to tax and cut people into oblivion.

alastair

donalg1 wrote: »

People are complaining that its not fair because the LA tenants dont pay anything which I agree with, so when they are told they must pay a property charge will these people stop complaining, or will they simply complain about something else?

Tenants of any shade won't be liable for the property tax. Now private tenants will shoulder at least some of the burden in their rent, but if local authority tenants are going to be asked to contribute more, it'll be through some parallel mechanism - not the property tax.

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

According to the authorities, I am deemed to own my house because I am paying a mortgage. The reality is, I will not own my house for at least another twenty years, until I have paid the last payment.

You owned the house as soon as you got the papers for it. Your mortgage lender has a lien on your house - not any sort of ownership.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Well for the minute alls we know is we are going to pay something until we are told what that will be we can but guess.

My point was that I read somewhere that LA tenants will be paying also.

People are complaining that its not fair because the LA tenants dont pay anything which I agree with, so when they are told they must pay a property charge will these people stop complaining, or will they simply complain about something else?

Im not in the habbit of commiting into blind expenses, thats why im not in difficulty, at the moment.

Alot of people would be willing to pay the charge if it was collected from all who avail of LA services (some avail of more services than others, lets be honest) and that its evenly contributed to, by that i mean it shouldnt be that people in private houses(not much of a LA burden) pay €1000 a year (hypothetically) and people in council houses (huge LA burden) pay a tiny fraction of it like €100 just to say "people in council houses pay to".

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

You owned the house as soon as you got the papers for it. Your mortgage lender has a lien on your house - not any sort of ownership.

Until I can no longer afford to pay the mortgage. Does not matter which way you put it, it will never be mine. As you know, lien means "security in the interest of the item you are paying for", in my case it is my house. So, in broad terms, it means ownership in the end for the mortgage company.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

Im not in the habbit of commiting into blind expenses, thats why im not in difficulty, at the moment.

Alot of people would be willing to pay the charge if it was collected from all who avail of LA services (some avail of more services than others, lets be honest) and that its evenly contributed to, by that i mean it shouldnt be that people in private houses(not much of a LA burden) pay €1000 a year (hypothetically) and people in council houses (huge LA burden) pay a tiny fraction of it like €100 just to say "people in council houses pay to".

I understand where you are coming from, but knowing the way things work here and have done in the past I would imagine those in LA housing will pay less than the neighbour who has bought out their house.

Regardless of who pays what and why they have to pay the amount they do people will always be unhappy with the amounts they are told to pay and will complain about it, thats just human nature. There is no way to introduce a tax that will please everybody, chances are it wont please anyone except those that are collecting the money.

tayto lover

donalg1 wrote: »

Well for the minute alls we know is we are going to pay something until we are told what that will be we can but guess.

My point was that I read somewhere that LA tenants will be paying also.

People are complaining that its not fair because the LA tenants dont pay anything which I agree with, so when they are told they must pay a property charge will these people stop complaining, or will they simply complain about something else?

As long as it targets my home I will complain and do all in my power to twart them. To be punished for working hard all your lifetime and being a productive member of society with a good work ethic does not sit easy with me especially when those who leeched everything they could pay nothing.

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

As long as it targets my home I will complain and do all in my power to twart them. To be punished for working hard all your lifetime and being a productive member of society with a good work ethic does not sit easy with me especially when those who leeched everything they could pay nothing.

Unfortunately those that have leeched everything do get everything for nothing or for the bare minimum, however if you gave me the option to be a leech or to work for what I have I will choose to work for what I have.

Granted I may not have as much as the leech or as much disposable income as the leech but at least I will be happy that what I have done is the right thing to do, plus I will always assume the leech is less well off than me despite the fact they may have more money at the end of the week. Plus if I ever have kids they will end up better off having seen me making my own way in the world instead of doing nothing but living on handouts.

It does p1ss me off to see people do nothing and get everything but I just realise that I prefer doing things my way than that way.

Am Chile

tayto lover wrote: »

If they start that then they will just force even more people into the black economy. People will turn against the Govt even more and eventually they will topple in the same way that F.F. did. Dead men walking.

Good article in todays Journal about the Booming black economy-with yesterdays annoucement we can only expect it to boom even more-well done blueshirts.

THE IRISH SMALL & Medium Enterprises Association (ISME) has warned that
rogue traders, cash only merchants and racketeers are ‘killing’ tax compliant
small businesses and costing the state billions in unpaid taxes.


According to ISME Chief Executive Mark Fielding, the amount of taxes being
lost is conservatively estimated at €5 billion, with the cost on the economy at
least 14 per cent of GDP.


“The ‘nixer’ culture, in particular, is very much alive and well and there
has been a definite shift towards a ‘cash only’
shadow economy” said Fielding. “This is particularly
evident in the construction and maintenance sectors, where there are increased
incidences of ‘jobs for cash’, completely undercutting legitimate companies, who
in many instances report that potential clients are demanding that they pay ‘off
the books’ to save VAT.”


Fielding also claimed that because the social welfare system is not designed
to make it easy to receive payments and take irregular temporary work, people
ended up signing on and also working when they can, leading to millions in
illegitimate dole claims.


“With rising costs and taxes, there’s also an incentive not to work,
or to work but avoid
tax. The system itself therefore offers a significant
incentive to operate within the shadow economy, encouraging undisclosed employment without
taxes or regulations, while claiming assistance from
the state

http://www.thejournal.ie/booming-black-economy-killing-small-business-533041-Jul2012/

tayto lover

donalg1 wrote: »

Unfortunately those that have leeched everything do get everything for nothing or for the bare minimum, however if you gave me the option to be a leech or to work for what I have I will choose to work for what I have.

Granted I may not have as much as the leech or as much disposable income as the leech but at least I will be happy that what I have done is the right thing to do, plus I will always assume the leech is less well off than me despite the fact they may have more money at the end of the week. Plus if I ever have kids they will end up better off having seen me making my own way in the world instead of doing nothing but living on handouts.

It does p1ss me off to see people do nothing and get everything but I just realise that I prefer doing things my way than that way.

I'm the same and have had to pay every cent of putting my kids through university as i didn't qualify for any grant. Yet these people can get grants free, go on holiday, drink and go to the bookies and get other things for free.

Targeting my home is a bridge too far though. I'm not having it.

alastair

Am Chile wrote: »

Good article in todays Journal about the Booming black economy-with yesterdays annoucement we can only expect it to boom even more-well done blueshirts.



http://www.thejournal.ie/booming-black-economy-killing-small-business-533041-Jul2012/

Looks like a pretty good case for property taxes rather than increased income taxes.

tayto lover

alastair wrote: »

Looks like a pretty good case for property taxes rather than increased income taxes.

Are you not breaching your ban?

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

Are you not breaching your ban?

NEE NAW NEE NAW NEE NAW

Super-Rush

alastair wrote: »

Looks like a pretty good case for property taxes rather than increased income taxes.

Banned for ignoring mod instruction.

Am Chile

Hogan threatens to raise Income tax if people continue to refuse to pay the household tax.

Workers will have to pay more tax next year if 600,000 homeowners persist with their refusal to pay the household charge, Environment Minister Phil Hogan has warned

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/income-tax-hikes-to-pay-for-household-levy-shortfall-202040.html

Hijpo

Am Chile wrote: »

Hogan threatens to raise Income tax if people continue to refuse to pay the household tax.

Workers will have to pay more tax next year if 600,000 homeowners persist with their refusal to pay the household charge, Environment Minister Phil Hogan has warned

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/income-tax-hikes-to-pay-for-household-levy-shortfall-202040.html

will it be only home owners income tax? seen as weve been told people on the dole pay income tax, i couldnt see there being any need to up the income taxes by much seen as everyone will be paying now instead of the few who cost the least to support.

Am Chile

Hijpo wrote: »

will it be only home owners income tax? seen as weve been told people on the dole pay income tax, i couldnt see there being any need to up the income taxes by much seen as everyone will be paying now instead of the few who cost the least to support.

To say if people don't pay the household tax between now and the end of year they will raise income tax to cover the shortfall is just an excuse-income tax is gonna be raised anyway-then we have the property tax looking set to be deducted at source with revenue collecting it.

dvpower

Am Chile wrote: »

Hogan threatens to raise Income tax if people continue to refuse to pay the household tax.



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/income-tax-hikes-to-pay-for-household-levy-shortfall-202040.html[/QUOTE]

Not really. He says that services will be cut, and that income tax rises is an alternative to that.

The people that haven’t paid will be responsible for cuts in essential services
and local government if they don’t pay between now and the end of the year.


"The alternative to that is to put more taxation on work and working
people, including some people who have already paid the charge and do not want
to pay any more tax," he told reporters afterwards inside the hotel

Has anyone got any realistic proposals for making up the shortfall?

donalg1

Am Chile wrote: »

Hogan threatens to raise Income tax if people continue to refuse to pay the household tax.



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/income-tax-hikes-to-pay-for-household-levy-shortfall-202040.html

Nice so those that have paid the HHC will be penalised because others didnt pay it, what a wonderful country we live in, let those that break the law away with it and let those that abide by the law pay for the law breakers.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Has anyone got any realistic proposals for making up the shortfall?

A good start would be to cut bloated ministerial salaries,pensions, and over generous expense allowances. (cut the amount of pensions they can simultaneously claim also)

Then move on to the top level PS salaries, pensions and generous expenses too. (why should they get paid 70k a year, yet not have to actually 'spend' money on lunches/travel etc etc?) I know tthis doesnt apply to all PS workers, but it is over generous to the top dogs.

Their cuts seem to be minimal compared to what the paye/homeowners are getting hit with time and again.

Should be the makings of a few billion there to start with.

phil1nj

donalg1 wrote: »

Nice so those that have paid the HHC will be penalised because others didnt pay it, what a wonderful country we live in, let those that break the law away with it and let those that abide by the law pay for the law breakers.

You are right, it is a wonderful country. Didn't Noonan threaten the same thing with regard to the last EU referendum? Saying that if people voted no, income tax would most likely have to be raised.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0501/breaking19.html

Looks like FG will be hanging this over the electorate until everything (no more how odious and unfair it may be) gets brought it. The laughable thing is that most likley income tax will have to be rasied regardless of all of these threats. These are bully-boy tactics from a government that is out of it's depth and bankrupt of ideas of how to turn things around IMHO.

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

Am Chile wrote: »

Hogan threatens to raise Income tax if people continue to refuse to pay the household tax.



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/income-tax-hikes-to-pay-for-household-levy-shortfall-202040.html[/QUOTE]

Not really. He says that services will be cut, and that income tax rises is an alternative to that.

The people that haven’t paid will be responsible for cuts in essential services
and local government if they don’t pay between now and the end of the year.


"The alternative to that is to put more taxation on work and working
people, including some people who have already paid the charge and do not want
to pay any more tax," he told reporters afterwards inside the hotel

Has anyone got any realistic proposals for making up the shortfall?

Yeah....cut spending to year 2000 levels...

Question....how will revenue collect this?....how will they compile a list of who owns what....they will still need us to co-operate and supply info....and IF they do ever manage to get this up and running, will they also be deducting it at source from social welfare payments? ...We can all see where this is going....nowhere fast!

donalg1

phil1nj wrote: »

You are right, it is a wonderful country. Didn't Noonan threaten the same thing with regard to the last EU referendum? Saying that if people voted no, income tax would most likely have to be raised.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0501/breaking19.html

Looks like FG will be hanging this over the electorate until everything (no more how odious and unfair it may be) gets brought it. The laughable thing is that most likley income tax will have to be rasied regardless of all of these threats. These are bully-boy tactics from a government that is out of it's depth and bankrupt of ideas of how to turn things around IMHO.

I agree that Income tax was always going to have to be raised but now it looks like they are doing it in this budget and saying it is as a result of the poor collection rate of the HHC.

Firstly their penalties are laughable and offer no incentive to pay so the Govt are at fault for the lack of collection.

Secondly there are those that refuse to pay as a result of these stupid penalties, meaning everyone that has paid gets screwed twice by the Govt and the non payers.

I just hope someone from the anti-brigade calls to my door or stops me in the street.

Ghandee

donalg1 wrote: »

I agree that Income tax was always going to have to be raised but now it looks like they are doing it in this budget and saying it is as a result of the poor collection rate of the HHC.

Firstly their penalties are laughable and offer no incentive to pay so the Govt are at fault for the lack of collection.

Secondly there are those that refuse to pay as a result of these stupid penalties, meaning everyone that has paid gets screwed twice by the Govt and the non payers.

I just hope someone from the anti-brigade calls to my door or stops me in the street.[/QUOTE]

Put the kettle on Donal, I'll be there in a jiffy! (tiny splash of milk, no sugar):D

Ghandee

Whats the story with all the quotes getting ballsed up this AM????

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

I agree that Income tax was always going to have to be raised but now it looks like they are doing it in this budget and saying it is as a result of the poor collection rate of the HHC.

Firstly their penalties are laughable and offer no incentive to pay so the Govt are at fault for the lack of collection.

Secondly there are those that refuse to pay as a result of these stupid penalties, meaning everyone that has paid gets screwed twice by the Govt and the non payers.

I just hope someone from the anti-brigade calls to my door or stops me in the street.[/QUOTE]


Put the kettle on Donal, I'll be there in a jiffy! (tiny splash of milk, no sugar):D

You be leaving with your tail between your legs Ghandee!!