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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*
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are they actual and definitive figures of wage caps being broken even though we are being told we have to raise exra millions for the LA?
Talk about changing the goalposts. Maybe government spending on paperclips is up too, but that doesn't change the facts.0 -
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There is a bit of a fixation here with what does and does not constitute an asset. Some would say as asset necessarily must produce a net income. I would describe this as a performing asset and say that an asset is simply something that has an inherent value.tayto lover wrote: »So a house that is costing money to run is NOT an asset --- I knew that.
Well ultimately, it matters not a jot how you label things as long as we all understand what it meant. And the view of some on the anti-property tax side is that (property) tax should not be levied at homes at they are not assets (using their terminology), or non-performing assets (using mine and others).
To this I would say two things. First, owner-occupied properties are, IMO, performing assets on average. I make this assessment as follows (feel free to contradict my figures or analysis as you see fit, especially as alcohol has been consumed!
).
There are about 760,000 home loan mortgages in play at the moment and the sum total of all mortgages is about €112 billion. Thus the average outstanding amount is less than €150,000. And as about one third of homes are mortgage free, the average across all homes is about €100 K. Taking a variable interest rate of about 3% would mean annual interest due on an outstanding amount of €100 K is €3,000 or about €250 per month. With average rent in the region of €800 - €900 per month and even allowing generously for maintenance costs, this would suggest to me that residential properties are on average performing assets, or just assets using the definition of some.
Of course average calculations are crude and a clearer picture might be obtained by more detailed calculations but I would be surprised if the majority of homes did not generate more revenue than they cost.
The second point is this. If you do insist that non-performing assets should not be taxed then this presents something of a conundrum.
Suppose an Irish version of the queen of England, bless her, dwelled amongst us with jaw-dropping wealth in the form of palaces, stately homes, vast estates, gardens, jewellery, art and all manner of gear, then on what basis would you tax this wealth as all of these goodies cost money (maintenance, security etc.) rather than generate any? And of course many who oppose the property tax insist that it is the wealthy and not the ordinary Joe and Jane who should do the heavy lifting. But this insistence that assets should perform seems to offer the ultra rich a fairly easy ride?0 -
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1) Special Needs Assistants being cut 2) Hospitals being downgraded 3) Garda Stations being closed 4) About 100,000 people in mortgage arrears 5) 750,000 people in IRELAND on the verge of poverty
It is a bit rich for someone who won’t pay all the taxes they are liable for to complaining about cut backs in important services, don’t you think? If everybody paid ALL their taxes then fewer cuts would be needed.If we need cuts (and we do), surely we HAVE to start with these power crazed fat cats who got us into this mess in the first place
Start with curtailing their salaries, then reducing numbers.
This is an old ploy when arguing against some necessary but unpopular measure such as funding cuts. Point out a more popular starting place where cuts might be made (and cutting politicians benefits sure would be popular) and insist that the cuts begin there (whether or not such an alternative cut makes much practical difference may be cheerfully ignored).
And of course you will always be able to find a cut in spending that you consider to be more morally justified than the one that effects you, so you will never reach a point where you have to dip your hand in your own pocket.
Alas, everyone can use this ploy; public sector workers to resist wages cuts / redundancies, all workers to resist new taxes, social welfare recipients to resist benefit cuts etc. which means that if you accept this ploy you cannot make the adjustments that have to be made (and they do, we have no choice).
So here’s an idea. Let’s not get to worried about where we start, let’s simply make a list of the adjustments that need to be made and an estimate of how much savings that would reduce our deficit of about €15,000 million.
I’ll give you the honour of first place on the list. Bags I # 2.
1. Remove 120 TDs from the Dail! Benefit? About €30 million
2. Introduce a property tax of say €350 (modest compared to some speculations). Benefit? About €600 million!
Now I could brag that my measure has 20 times the benefit of yours! Alas, such a property tax would only take a 4% bite out of the apple pie that is our deficit (your measure would amount to swallowing half a clove!). So we need to add a lot more to our list.
And add in as many fat cats as you like, you will eventually have to start adding more measures like a property tax that will have a seriously impact on ordinary folk with modest incomes.
BTW Have we finally put to bed this notion that a residential property is not an asset? 0 -
It is a bit rich for someone who won’t pay all the taxes they are liable for to complaining about cut backs in important services, don’t you think? If everybody paid ALL their taxes then fewer cuts would be needed.
I think this will be the third time I;'ll have asked you this, and I have yet to get a reply.
What taxes do I not pay/have not paid?BTW Have we finally put to bed this notion that a residential property is not an asset?
Nope, I thought that was covered on the cashflow/income v the expenditure/liabilty demonstration?0 -
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Well I assume you did not pay the HHC? But if I am wrong, take a bow and go to the top of the class!I think this will be the third time I;'ll have asked you this, and I have yet to get a reply.
What taxes do I not pay/have not paid?
Presumably you dispute my figures which suggest that the average residential property DOES generate a net profit and thus constitutes an asset, even by the definition of the one guy on the internet you managed to find who is out of kilter with everyone else? Can we see your calculations?Nope, I thought that was covered on the cashflow/income v the expenditure/liabilty demonstration?0 -
Well I assume you did not pay the HHC? But if I am wrong, take a bow and go to the top of the class!
I am exempt from the HHC thanks to buider, who despite being 16million in the black has decided that he cant afford to finish my estate.
But to be clear, I would not have paid it regardless, nor will be paying any property tax anyone attempts to tell me I am liable for.Presumably you dispute my figures which suggest that the average residential property DOES generate a net profit and thus constitutes an asset, even by the definition of the one guy on the internet you managed to find who is out of kilter with everyone else? Can we see your calculations?
Its not a matter of disoputing your figures.
I'm simply telling you how it is as a fact!
I pay for a mortgage on a house that has lost prob 50% of its value since buying it in 2006.
My mortgage repayments plus the interest attached means that when I finally pay the last payment of it, I will prob have repaid 2-3 times of its resale value, if house prices continue to rise at the pitiful rates they have been in the last 5 years.
Am I whinging about the house? No, we obviously thought it was worth it
when we bought it, so no point complaining now.
However, we were not to blame for the collapse of the economic boom, and the housing markets implosion.
But for the guys who created the mess, or at least partially created it, (and in the case of some European banks, helped fuel it) to now come along and place a rent on the property I was sold, just to keep them in the life style to which they have been accustomed is not going to happen I'm afraid.
I will fight any notion to tax the roof over my families head relentlessly.
They can introduce a rates system by all means, and then start laying on some actual services I will use, like a refuse system, like free education, free school dinners, start to provide a health care system that is free to all (like they do in the all to often, comapred 'UK')
I work for a company in the North, I get paid into an account in the south, and pay all my taxes, PRSI etc here. I do this by choice.
I could quite easily (take me an hour tops) decide to get taxed via the North if I wished to.......0 -
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But to be clear, I would not have paid it regardless, nor will be paying any property tax anyone attempts to tell me I am liable for.
So you are not a good boy after all. Stand in the corner and face the wall!
Presumably if and when a property tax does come in, and you manage to avoid paying it you will at that point desist from complaining about cuts in important public services?I'm simply telling you .......
And you proceed to tell me all sort of things that have no bearing on what I asked you! (Mind, there are plenty of holes in what you did tell me!)
The question again, in case I was unclear, is: do you dispute that the average Irish residential property generates a net profit, and thus constitute an asset, even by the rather strange notion you have of an asset?
I am not asking about the merits of taxing or not taxing this income, simply whether you dispute if it is there or not.0 -
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There is a bit of a fixation here with what does and does not constitute an asset. Some would say as asset necessarily must produce a net income. I would describe this as a performing asset and say that an asset is simply something that has an inherent value.
To this I would say two things. First, owner-occupied properties are, IMO, performing assets on average. I make this assessment as follows (feel free to contradict my figures or analysis as you see fit, especially as alcohol has been consumed!).
There are about 760,000 home loan mortgages in play at the moment and the sum total of all mortgages is about €112 billion. Thus the average outstanding amount is less than €150,000. And as about one third of homes are mortgage free, the average across all homes is about €100 K. Taking a variable interest rate of about 3% would mean annual interest due on an outstanding amount of €100 K is €3,000 or about €250 per month. With average rent in the region of €800 - €900 per month and even allowing generously for maintenance costs, this would suggest to me that residential properties are on average performing assets, or just assets using the definition of some.
Of course average calculations are crude and a clearer picture might be obtained by more detailed calculations but I would be surprised if the majority of homes did not generate more revenue than they cost.
QUOTE]
I have to say that I have some issue with your suggestion that there is anyone out their who is paying anything as low as €250 per month on a mortgage. I am definitly not going into my own personal circumstances and monthly mortgage payment again on this thread, but I would like to say that I, and I am sure many people reading above post, would be in a great financial position, if that's all we had to pay on a mortgage monthly.
However, I would have great sympathy for anyone renting from you. Just as a matter of interest, the renters that you suggest are paying in the region of €800-€900 per month, while we know that they are not LA tenants, would they be on any sort of a subsidy from the govt., because I would find it very hard to believe that anyone, even on a good salary, would pay out what you seem to be suggesting in rent.
Lastly, I would like to say that what you state above about the majority of homes, generating more revenue than they cost, well I think this is the biggest load of bull I've ever heard, unless, of course, you are a landlord, which, if you are, I think it very disingenuous of you to even compare a revenue making house(commercial entity) with a family home.0 -
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This discussion has been closed.
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