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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #6422
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    SO it appears the property tax will be value based and not site based. I wonder how they are going to determine the value?


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    #6423
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Since big Phil is in the line of work of auctioneers no doubt he will be insisting his mates must carry out the valuations.


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    #6424
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    The cuts to local services have nothing to do with the €150 million projected household charge. It is to do with the majority of tax being taken in being used to pay interest on loans we have taken out to run this country. We have too many people on the payroll and not enough in private employment.

    If the government was serious about providing services with this property tax they would allow its citizens to pay the money directly to its local authority instead of being put into a centralised kitty.


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    #6425
    Big Bad Phil
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Big Bad Phil


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    SO it appears the property tax will be value based and not site based. I wonder how they are going to determine the value?

    Anyone who refuses to get their house valued for the new property tax will face fines.


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    #6426
    Big Bad Phil
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Big Bad Phil


    Well now we can all see the side effects of this anti household campaign millions in cuts to local services hope all you non payers are proud.. its about time people realised there is no free lunchs in life.. you want local services you must pay for them.


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    #6427
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    darkhorse wrote: »
    I have to say that I have some issue with your suggestion that there is anyone out their who is paying anything as low as €250 per month on a mortgage.

    I didn’t say anyone was. I suggested that about €250 per month is what they are paying on average in interest on their mortgage. Their actual mortgage payment is of course (unless you have an interest only arrangement) a good deal more than this but this non-interest part of the payment goes towards paying off the capital cost of your house, a valuable asset that you can eventually capitalize on by selling. You are in effect putting this money in to your house rather than a savings account.

    In normal circumstances you would get this money back when you sell the house. Regrettably that may be the case for many people who will get less due to the crash in property prices but that is the nature of any investment.

    As the ads all say, the value of your investment can go down as well as up. If you had bought shares five years ago you would have been hammered now. If you had bought gold you would probably have made a tidy profit. Such is the nature of investments.
    darkhorse wrote: »
    However, I would have great sympathy for anyone renting from you. Just as a matter of interest, the renters that you suggest are paying in the region of €800-€900 per month, while we know that they are not LA tenants, would they be on any sort of a subsidy from the govt., because I would find it very hard to believe that anyone, even on a good salary, would pay out what you seem to be suggesting in rent.

    Well you will be happy to know that no one rents from me! :) I own one house only, which I lease to myself! As to the €800-€900 estimate for rent, I would refer you to the daft report (page 6) which will give you a feel for what particular properties in particular locations might cost to rent.
    darkhorse wrote: »
    Lastly, I would like to say that what you state above about the majority of homes, generating more revenue than they cost, well I think this is the biggest load of bull I've ever heard, unless, of course, you are a landlord, which, if you are, I think it very disingenuous of you to even compare a revenue making house(commercial entity) with a family home.

    :) Yes, you are not alone in thinking it is bull, but bull it ain’t. A residential property CAN generate a typical income stream of the order of €800 per month. By living in your own house you accrue a benefit that you would otherwise have to pay €800 pm for.

    To argue to the contrary would be like insisting that there would be no benefit in a restaurant giving you free meals for life as you could not capitalize on this in cash seeing as how you have to eat all the meals to sustain yourself! :pac:

    True, it doesn’t put hard cash in your pocket. But take the benefit away and you will quickly find cash flying out of your pocket. Ergo, it is a real benefit.


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    #6428
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,962 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    The cuts to local services have nothing to do with the €150 million projected household charge. It is to do with the majority of tax being taken in being used to pay interest on loans we have taken out to run this country. We have too many people on the payroll and not enough in private employment.

    If the government was serious about providing services with this property tax they would allow its citizens to pay the money directly to its local authority instead of being put into a centralised kitty.

    Did you take any account of the increase in population in the country when you did your calculation about the numbers in public and private employment? Can you supply details of your calculation.

    As you may know the population increased by over one million in the last 20 years and is still increasing leading to extra demand on services such as education and health and thereby the need for more workers to provide these services.

    http://www.statusireland.com/statistics/population/12/Population-Growth-of-Ireland.html


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    #6429
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Big Bad Phil wrote: »
    Anyone who refuses to get their house valued for the new property tax will face fines.

    How do you know how it will be determined until its revealed. Are you a government shill or just a spoofer. :rolleyes:


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    #6430
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    How pissed off are you going to be when up end up paying the €100 plus penalties when you needn't have paid anything at all.

    Not very tbh.

    Just looking on website, exempt next year too.

    Roll on 2014, won't pay it then either. ;)


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    #6431
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Did you take any account of the increase in population in the country when you did your calculation about the numbers in public and private employment? Can you supply details of your calculation.

    As you may know the population increased by over one million in the last 20 years and is still increasing leading to extra demand on services such as education and health and thereby the need for more workers to provide these services.

    http://www.statusireland.com/statistics/population/12/Population-Growth-of-Ireland.html

    Too many mangers and not enough front line staff in Health.
    Not enough specialised teachers in education.
    Too many staff in local authorities (moving staff around from one department to another to find work, Sligo Co Co running deficit and cannot reduce wage bill due to Croke Park). I know enough people in local authority to know this is true.

    So while we maybe short staff in some areas we have too many in other areas and those surplus to requirement are not suitable for transfer.


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    #6432
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    dxhound2005 wrote: »

    What does "on the verge of poverty" mean?

    I am really glad to hear that you do not know what "on the verge of poverty" means and I hope that you never have to find out. I am not being sarcastic, I mean it.


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    #6433
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,962 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    darkhorse wrote: »
    dxhound2005 wrote: »

    What does "on the verge of poverty" mean?

    I am really glad to hear that you do not know what "on the verge of poverty" means and I hope that you never have to find out. I am not being sarcastic, I mean it.

    My question was prompted by a statement that there are "750,000 people on the verge of poverty in Ireland". What does it mean in that context?


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    #6434
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    How do you know how it will be determined until its revealed. Are you a government shill or just a spoofer. :rolleyes:

    You call someone else a shill and spoofer on the same page that you post this nonsense:
    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Since big Phil is in the line of work of auctioneers no doubt he will be insisting his mates must carry out the valuations.
    Have you no shame.


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    #6435
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    The cuts to local services have nothing to do with the €150 million projected household charge. It is to do with the majority of tax being taken in being used to pay interest on loans we have taken out to run this country.
    Really? The majority of tax being taken in being used to pay interest?

    Why do you post this nonsense? - not even the most stupid anti property tax poster here would believe this big a lie.


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    #6436
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dvpower wrote: »
    You call someone else a shill and spoofer on the same page that you post this nonsense:

    Have you no shame.

    Are you serious?:confused:

    According to the Independent the proposed tax will be based on value. Who's value? Do you think they are going to leave it up to the individual to decide the value of their house or will they insist that an independent valuation is carried out by an auctioneer/valuer?


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    #6437
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dvpower wrote: »
    Really? The majority of tax being taken in being used to pay interest?

    Why do you post this nonsense? - not even the most stupid anti property tax poster here would believe this big a lie.

    We are borrowing to pay the current wage and social welfare bill because we are not taking in enough taxes due to a huge decline in the domestic economy and 300,000 people losing their jobs while the wage bill in the public sector is still too high. When we borrow money from the international markets and in our case the EU/IMF there is interest to be paid. Or haven't you heard.

    If this was a fair and transparent proposal people would pay their local authority directly and it would be used by their local authority and not central government.


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    #6438
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Are you serious?:confused:

    According to the Independent the proposed tax will be based on value. Who's value? Do you think they are going to leave it up to the individual to decide the value of their house or will they insist that an independent valuation is carried out by an auctioneer/valuer?

    Self assessed with random checks I believe. But no idea how you'd self assess your property!!

    Great news on the amount though. Was pretty happy when i read Noonan's statement. Governments stated 'averge' property tax expectation down from €1,000 a few weeks ago to €300. I suspect that is a response to the huge non-registration...they have realised that a grand per property isn't a runner. So good job to all those that didn't pay yet. IMO it has contributed to a reweighting away fom the property tax back to general taxation / tax band changes and welfare cuts, and not just a hammering of homeowners.

    Would still prefer the implementation of the fair UK style council tax based on residency, but Noonan's weighting of tax changes is much better now


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    #6439
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    steve9859 wrote: »
    Self assessed with random checks I believe. But no idea how you'd self assess your property!!

    Great news on the amount though. Was pretty happy when i read Noonan's statement. Governments stated 'averge' property tax expectation down from €1,000 a few weeks ago to €300. I suspect that is a response to the huge non-registration...they have realised that a grand per property isn't a runner. So good job to all those that didn't pay yet. IMO it has contributed to a reweighting away fom the property tax back to general taxation / tax band changes and welfare cuts, and not just a hammering of homeowners.

    Would still prefer the implementation of the fair UK style council tax based on residency, but Noonan's weighting of tax changes is much better now

    It will be interesting if it is self assessment. I suspect alot of people will be valuing on the low side. Its estimated that prices are back at 2002 levels.


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    #6440
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    steve9859 wrote: »
    Self assessed with random checks I believe. But no idea how you'd self assess your property!!

    Great news on the amount though. Was pretty happy when i read Noonan's statement. Governments stated 'averge' property tax expectation down from €1,000 a few weeks ago to €300. I suspect that is a response to the huge non-registration...they have realised that a grand per property isn't a runner. So good job to all those that didn't pay yet. IMO it has contributed to a reweighting away fom the property tax back to general taxation / tax band changes and welfare cuts, and not just a hammering of homeowners.

    Would still prefer the implementation of the fair UK style council tax based on residency, but Noonan's weighting of tax changes is much better now

    I thought myself they might go for €200 or so next year, so people might say that`s not so bad, and register. I still think it will be a hammering of home owners if all were registered.


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    #6441
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    I thought myself they might go for €200 or so next year, so people might say that`s not so bad, and register. I still think it will be a hammering of home owners if all were registered.

    I agree. But it has brought time, which is better than where we were. Instead of a grand next year (which i have no doubt it would have been if everyone had registered straight away) it might be, say, three years before it gets to that level. Theyve realised they are going to have to ease into it slowly to have any chance of it working. And in the meantime, the shortfall will be made up elsewhere, in more equitable ways


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    #6442
    Cesium Clock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭Cesium Clock


    Big Bad Phil wrote: »
    Well now we can all see the side effects of this anti household campaign millions in cuts to local services hope all you non payers are proud.. its about time people realised there is no free lunchs in life.. you want local services you must pay for them.

    56% payment in Roscommon 14,000 households paid,

    Cuts of 1.7 million

    Explain Why

    Or is it punishment


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    #6443
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,962 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    steve9859 wrote: »
    Self assessed with random checks I believe. But no idea how you'd self assess your property!!

    Great news on the amount though. Was pretty happy when i read Noonan's statement. Governments stated 'averge' property tax expectation down from €1,000 a few weeks ago to €300. I suspect that is a response to the huge non-registration...they have realised that a grand per property isn't a runner. So good job to all those that didn't pay yet. IMO it has contributed to a reweighting away fom the property tax back to general taxation / tax band changes and welfare cuts, and not just a hammering of homeowners.

    Would still prefer the implementation of the fair UK style council tax based on residency, but Noonan's weighting of tax changes is much better now

    When did the government say that they expected it to average €1000?


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    #6444
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    dvpower wrote: »
    Failure to apply for an exemption makes you liable, so it seems that you are a tax evader after all.

    As I have said to you and the rest of your debating team on several occasions on this thread
    What tax did this person evade. What are the waivers from payment of the household charge?

    Please read what the above says. If it is not clear, read it a couple of times. The above is from householdcharge.ie


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    #6445
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Are you serious?:confused:

    According to the Independent the proposed tax will be based on value. Who's value? Do you think they are going to leave it up to the individual to decide the value of their house or will they insist that an independent valuation is carried out by an auctioneer/valuer?

    I see a gravy train for auctioneers on the way,much the same as during the boom where they were bosom buddies with developers.Somebody will have to value houses-I'd rather value my own-it's now worth shag all.


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    #6446
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,962 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    zerks wrote: »
    I see a gravy train for auctioneers on the way,much the same as during the boom where they were bosom buddies with developers.Somebody will have to value houses-I'd rather value my own-it's now worth shag all.

    They don't see it like that apparently.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/auctioneer-chief-property-tax-foolish-564371.html


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    #6447
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,962 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    darkhorse wrote: »
    As I have said to you and the rest of your debating team on several occasions on this thread
    What tax did this person evade. What are the waivers from payment of the household charge?

    Please read what the above says. If it is not clear, read it a couple of times. The above is from householdcharge.ie

    Read what?


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    #6448
    Cesium Clock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭Cesium Clock


    dvpower wrote: »
    Failure to apply for an exemption makes you liable, so it seems that you are a tax evader after all.

    Since when was the HHC a tax?

    And if it is a tax why have the revenue not mentioned it.


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    #6449
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    zerks wrote: »
    I see a gravy train for auctioneers on the way,much the same as during the boom where they were bosom buddies with developers.Somebody will have to value houses-I'd rather value my own-it's now worth shag all.

    That was my point and Big Phil is an Auctioneer by profession. It's all falling into place when he fails to get re-elected LOL.


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    #6450
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    They don't see it like that apparently.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/auctioneer-chief-property-tax-foolish-564371.html

    Another bunch of people who think its a silly idea.......


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    #6451
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    They don't see it like that apparently.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/auctioneer-chief-property-tax-foolish-564371.html

    They are also doing a bit of shouting and roaring here.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0825/property-tax-proposals.html

    Seemingly they would prefer a site value tax to a full value one saying the latter would be unfair to city dwellers.

    Can't quite see the logic in this argument myself :confused:


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