Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

No idea what point you are trying to make?



Presumably you think the government could have done absolutely anything they wanted with the bondholders, banks etc and this would have no impact at all on the IMF / ECB decision to be a lender of last resort to us?

You have posted before in defence of ordinary public sector workers, naively IMO. Have you any idea what the landscape would look like for them now, not to mention the knock on effects for everyone, if we did not have access to this money?

Yes I have always backed ordinary Public Sector workers who are on the Frontline and who are suffering the same as the rest of us. Our Govt should have demanded better conditions and longer to pay on our borrowings, the Spanish and Greeks did. What we have is a Govt who in my opinion are very weak in Europe but who are bullying their own people. They are not explaining the situation to the people like it is but are always threatening them a la Phil Hogan. When Enda did come on t.v. to make his speech he told us it was not our fault. A few days later he is in some European town acting the hypocrite telling his audience that "the Irish went mad".

Hijpo

you can tell who the realistic avarage home owners are in this thread. No average home owner would ever pay up and register so easy and if they did they certainly wouldnt defend it to the extent the pro hhc side are.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Added to that the fact that they are initially targetting second home owners for enforcement, its unlikely that the CAHWT is going to organise their promised mass protests ("Socialists stand by landlords" headlines).

I think we're going to get high compliance figures when the enforcement starts.

I wouldn't think there will be too many landlords refusing to comply with this, after all they don't have to pay it, they will pass it on to their tenants. basically the wealthy getting ordinary people to pay their tax for them. Now that is how to evade a tax...

lugha

tayto lover wrote: »

Our Govt should have demanded better conditions and longer to pay on our borrowings, the Spanish and Greeks did.

I don’t think they are or ever were in a position to “demand” anything. And even if we were given longer to deal with our deficit there would still be extensive hardship for everyone (we haven’t seen anything yet IMO)

tayto lover wrote: »

What we have is a Govt who in my opinion are very weak in Europe but who are bullying their own people.

You are only as strong as the cards you hold dictate. And at the moment we have a handful of duds. As for bullying, that is simply propaganda nonsense that the no side dreamed up, which now some of them seem to actually believe.

tayto lover wrote: »

They are not explaining the situation to the people like it is

Some of us know what the situation is. And it is very, very bad. And no conceivable government that you might replace the current lot with would make a jot of a difference to this.

hijpo wrote: »

you can tell who the realistic avarage home owners are in this thread. No average home owner would ever pay up and register so easy and if they did they certainly wouldnt defend it to the extent the pro hhc side are.

Well I would ask you for an alternative way to deal with our problems that won’t cause hardship for ordinary people, as the property tax certainly will, but I don’t think you could give one.

Whatever measures we take, there is going to be a lot of grief for regular people, so we are better to take the least worst measures. And property tax is one of those.

At some point you will have to stop figuratively pulling the duvet over your head and hoping that our chronic problems will simply so away. They won't. We have to deal with them. And we have to decide the best, or least worst, measures we can take.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

I don’t think they are or ever were in a position to “demand” anything. And even if we were given longer to deal with our deficit there would still be extensive hardship for everyone (we haven’t seen anything yet IMO)


.

Yet they 'demand' we pay ground rent on our very own, privately owned properties

dvpower

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

So if I haven't paid then I'm a criminal?

Superfluous question mark there.

dxhound2005

Ghandee wrote: »

Yet they 'demand' we pay ground rent on our very own, privately owned properties

What gives you the right to own a piece of ground and have a private property on it? Only democracy and the rule of law. Both of which you will choose to ignore and inveigle others to do so until the party that you support comes into power.

Am Chile

Having read some of the posts here by those in favour in property taxes-they still insist there,s no other way only then a property tax just like the FG rep on the vincent browne show last monday-cutting council managers saleries was suggested- a financial transaction tax was suggested, but no no both were dismissed out of hand by the FG rep-like some others have said roll on the next local elections fine gael and labour will feel the anger of people then.

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

Yet they 'demand' we pay ground rent on our very own, privately owned properties

They also “demand” (!) that you pay tax on your very own, privately generated income. But this, despite it taking a vastly greater bite out of your income, troubles you not at all?

Of course you are used to income tax so you accept it without question because it seems normal and you similarly reject property tax because it doesn’t. Give this tax a couple of years and you'll get used to it too. :pac:

And if the property tax is up and running by the time of the next general election you can vote for a party who promises to abolish it. There may very well be parties who will make such a promise, I doubt if any would honour such a promise!

Izzy Skint

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Generally speaking, the bigger the country, the smaller the number of MPs per capita. For example, if we adopted the same ratio as India, we'd have a Dail of 2 TDs.

When you compare us against countries with similar populations, like Norway or Finland, we are quite similar.

are our economic situations similar to finland and norway ?.....are they up to their neck in sh!t as we are ?

lugha

Am Chile wrote: »

Having read some of the posts here by those in favour in property taxes-they still insist there,s no other way only then a property tax

No we don’t. There clearly will have to be many other measures, property tax would make almost no difference on its own. But there are good arguments for a property tax. So the onus is on those who do not favour a property tax to make the argument as to why property tax should be excluded as a measure. And they have failed to do this.

Izzy Skint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

darkhorse wrote: »

My question was prompted by a statement that there are "750,000 people on the verge of poverty in Ireland". What does it mean in that context?

what the f*ck do you think it means ????.....how thick are you ?.......you would be perfect for a cushy govt. job.....perhaps you already have......that would explain an awful lot.

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

No we don’t. There clearly will have to be many other measures, property tax would make almost no difference on its own. But there are good arguments for a property tax. So the onus is on those who do not favour a property tax to make the argument as to why property tax should be excluded as a measure. And they have failed to do this.

we don't need a prop tax because our FIRST priority should be to cut the ps pay and pension bill !!!.....but don't worry lugha, your income and employment is safe as houses ( houses that earn an income that is ? )....these cuts will never happen, govt. don't have the balls.

lugha

Izzy Skint wrote: »

we don't need a prop tax because our FIRST priority should be to cut the ps pay and pension bill !!!.....but don't worry lugha, your income and employment is safe as houses ( houses that earn an income that is ? )....these cuts will never happen, govt. don't have the balls.

There have been cuts to the PS pay bill and there will be an awful lot more, post CPA, balls or no balls. Because these cuts will have to happen. We do not have a choice here.

And anyone in either the public or private sector who thinks their income and employment is safe is deluded. The notion of a safe public sector job won't be around for much longer IMO.

dxhound2005

Izzy Skint wrote: »

dxhound2005 wrote: »

what the f*ck do you think it means ????.....how thick are you ?.......you would be perfect for a cushy govt. job.....perhaps you already have......that would explain an awful lot.

Where have you been for the last few days? I missed your sparkling repartee and wit.

Izzy Skint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Where have you been for the last few days? I missed your sparkling repartee and wit.

DX, I've been working long hours to support the family, pay the mortgage, pay ps wages and pensions, protecting the "most vulnerable", bailing out banks, bailing out bondholders etc. ....phew.....am exhausted after all that !:)

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

There may very well be parties who will make such a promise, I doubt if any would honour such a promise!

You might just have something there.

Mr. teddywinkles

I dont see why people should pay this. What are people going to get out of it.
The likes of people in rural areas.
Most these people payed amenity charges in excess of e15000 and same goes for stamp duty.
I mean come on whose going to pay a property tax when they handed the council that in the last few years.
Ridiculous! What do they provide in the lines of amenities in rural areas.
Dont say roads because your all going to get a road tax increase in next budget again.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What gives you the right to own a piece of ground and have a private property on it? Only democracy and the rule of law. Both of which you will choose to ignore and inveigle others to do so until the party that you support comes into power.

Quote taken from earlier by DX.

This little discussion on the internet doesn't mean a thing in the real world. And the polls in the two Household Charge threads were very unrepresentative and the one here probably is too. That is the way on AH, the political poll made Sinn Fein the largest party in the country 10% ahead of Fine Gael. Very much out of step with all properly organised opinion polls since this government came into power and showing that if shills exist here their propenderance is on the CAHWT side.

It is no harm having a different opinion represented if only to try to save people from the nonsense that defying the law will make it go away. Call that an agenda if you wan't, I have no connection to any organisation. CAHWT would better off telling people to break the TV licence law. People would save themselves more this year and there would be no increasing penalties and interest being attached to the title of their houses.

You may have no 'connection' to any political party or organisation, but i think its fair to suggest your definitely a party supporter and fan boy of one party in particular.

until the party that you support comes into power.

What was your first thoughts when the party you support got into power and did a complete u-turn on their policies and thoughts ref property tax?
No doubt you were screaming traitor and turn coats from the bottom of your law abiding little heart?

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/they-will-tax-the-roof-over-your-head-fine-gael-anti-property-tax-leaflet-1994/

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

What was your first thoughts when the party you support got into power and did a complete u-turn on their policies and thoughts ref property tax?
No doubt you were screaming traitor and turn coats from the bottom of your law abiding little heart?

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/they-will-tax-the-roof-over-your-head-fine-gael-anti-property-tax-leaflet-1994/

Still wheeling out what FG views on things were almost 20 years ago, before the boom, never mind the bust?

Well here is a little bit of research you might want to conduct. Have a look at where Sinn Fein stood on various matters in 1994, particularly the whole murderous campaign to subvert this state!

Of course they tell us now that they have moved on but if you hold political parties to views they espoused 20 years ago … :pac:

Ghandee

According to the independent, Dublin home owners will have to pay substantially more than other home owners in the country.
The article even suggests that in some cases, a property of equal size in Dublin south side could pay considerably more than a similar sized property on the north side.

This will cause outrage by a lot of home owners in Dublin, a lot of middle class hard working families (will they resent this unfair burden on them when it comes to vote casting?)

The article also states the blindingly obvious unfairness on making the cost of services the highest to houses in Dublin, where it costs least to provide them.

A semi detached, 3 bedroom house in somewhere like Templeogue may have an annual tax bill that could be more than double that of a four bedroom detached farm house in rural Offaly.

OVERNMENT plans to introduce a "value-based" property tax have been attacked by leading figures across the political and economic spectrum, who warn of a looming "fiasco" that will penalise Dublin homeowners hardest.

Under the plan, the new property tax regime would see the owner of an average four bed semi-detached house in Dublin paying €897 a year while the owner of an equivalent house in the midlands would pay just €375. Even within Dublin, the average southside householder will have to pay twice as much as the average northsider, based on current Myhome.ie property valuations and calculations applied by the ESRI. The Government plans to introduce the tax in December's Budget, according to a submission to the EU/IMF/ECB troika, which was posted on the Department of Finance's website on Friday.

The tax will be "value-based", rather than based on the square footage of a property. This means that middle-class Dublin homeowners, where average property values outstrip those in the rest of the country, will have to pay more than their share of the €500m that the Government intends to raise. Last night Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin said: "This has all the hallmarks of becoming another fiasco from those who brought us the household-charge mess." The Government's agreement with the troika was announced in a week in which the full scale of the country's mortgage-arrears crisis was revealed. New figures from the Central Bank show that 168,637 homeowners -- one in five -- are now struggling to meet their mortgage repayments.

According to the figures, which were released on Thursday, 128,416 borrowers were in arrears at the end of June. A further 40,221 had to have their monthly repayments lowered with the agreement of the lender. Mr Martin said: "The fact that the Government would go ahead and make such an agreement (with the troika) in a week when the full scale of the mortgage arrears crisis was revealed -- and at a time when no one in the country can say with any confidence how much their property is worth --speaks volumes about how disconnected they have become in a very short period of time. "One would have to wonder what advice the Government is getting that tells them the time is now right to land new charges of €700-€800 on middle-income earners."

In a recent paper, the ESRI also said that if a single tax rate was applied to property values nationwide, homeowners in Dublin would have to pay considerably more than those in the rest of the country. Speaking in a personal capacity, Central Bank board member and former Bank of Ireland chief executive Mike Soden said yesterday that the proposal was unfair to those living in Dublin. He said: "It becomes an unfair tax because what you're saying is that anybody who lives in those houses has money -- but they don't. They don't have the cash flow. "It just takes more money out of the system for people who want to have a reasonable lifestyle. "I don't know where the cash is going to come from. People are trying to survive."

Yesterday the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers said that the proposal was "crazy" and questioned how it would be implemented while the Society of Chartered Surveyors said the plan "will lead to perceptions of unfairness". Ronan O'Driscoll, director of residential property with estate agents Savills Ireland, said a property tax based on valuation would hit Dublin hardest, and south Dublin in particular. He added: "We don't know yet what the rate will be but if it is, say, half of one per cent of the value, then a very-good-quality home in Dublin, valued at €500,000, would mean an annual bill of €1,000." In an example presented by the ESRI, most homeowners would pay property tax each year of about €2.50 for every €1,000 of house value. This would raise around €500m for the Exchequer -- the amount the Government has indicated that it is seeking from the tax. The former Dublin Lord Mayor, Labour's Andrew Montague, yesterday warned of the potential unfairness of the value-based tax. He said: "It's cheaper to provide the services for people living in Dublin and in the cities than it is to provide them for people living in the country. "So why should Dubliners pay higher property tax when it is actually much cheaper to provide services for them? So why should they pay even more than people (in the country) who are actually costing more?"

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/property-tax-to-hit-dublin-middle-class-the-hardest-3210207.html

Bullseye1

It looks like its already turned into a Dublin versus the rest of the country tax. Those not living in Dublin will argue well Dubliners have better services, better public transport, live closer to hospitals etc.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

Still wheeling out what FG views on things were almost 20 years ago, before the boom, never mind the bust?

Well here is a little bit of research you might want to conduct. Have a look at where Sinn Fein stood on various matters in 1994, particularly the whole murderous campaign to subvert this state!

Of course they tell us now that they have moved on but if you hold political parties to views they espoused 20 years ago … :pac:

Stooped pretty low there lugha.

Pretty hypocritical considering who the party founder of FG was, and who he commanded.

Desperation seeping out of you now.

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

Stooped pretty low there lugha.

Pretty hypocritical considering who the party founder of FG was, and who he commanded.

Desperation seeping out of you now.

Well at least you see how silly it is to be looking at what a political parties position was 20 years ago! Good! Presumably you won't be wheeling out this "back in 1994" stuff again?

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

Well at least you see how silly it is to be looking at what a political parties position was 20 years ago! Good! Presumably you won't be wheeling out this "back in 1994" stuff again?

It has much relevance now as it had twenty years so, and as the then, and current leader said "It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a person's home" ,

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

It has much relevance now as it had twenty years so, and as the then, and current leader said "It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a person's home" ,

And 20 years ago, the current Sinn Fein leadership endorsed the view that the murder of gardai and army personnel who defended this state was acceptable.

Either you accept that people can change their political views or you do not. Sauce for the goose.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

And 20 years ago, the current Sinn Fein leadership endorsed the view that the murder of gardai and army personnel who defended this state was acceptable.

Either you accept that people can change their political views or you do not. Sauce for the goose.

Indeed.

Which is where I'll go on to quote you on asking the same thing numerous times in this thread.

'What has this got to do with the property tax we're currently discussing'?

Vain attempt to go off topic with petty points that have no bearing or relevance to the notion of placing a tax over the family home.

Clutching at straws now i see.

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

'What has this got to do with the property tax we're currently discussing'?

Is has to do with the integrity of the argument the no side make for not paying a property tax. If they cite a principled reason why they will not pay then they surely should be consistent in adhering to this principle. If they cannot do so, then their principled reason starts to look like a convenient excuse. And IMO, this is the case with every argument they have presented..

For example, several posters have cited an unfairness principle on the grounds that some get the benefits of a HHC but do not pay. But they have no real answers when it is pointed out that there are a myriad of situations in a welfare state where some get benefits but don’t pay for them.

Some argue that it is wrong in principle to tax a family home but cannot say why that is materially different to taxing (to a much greater extent!) a family livelihood. And neither can they explain why every other country has managed to get this wrong.

And to being us back to 1994, several posters have pointed out what Enda said in 1994 about property tax, the implication being that there is something unprincipled about having a different view now that the one you had 20 years ago. Well pretty much every political party has changed their outlook from 20 years ago, Sinn Fein radically so. Once again, your argument is undermined.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

And to being us back to 1994, several posters have pointed out what Enda said in 1994 about property tax, the implication being that there is something unprincipled about having a different view now that the one you had 20 years ago. Well pretty much every political party has changed their outlook from 20 years ago, Sinn Fein radically so. Once again, your argument is undermined.

What was Sinn Fein's view on what we're discussing on this thread 20 years ago, i.e a Property tax?

You attempted to throw the discussion completely off topic with refrences to murders etc.

That, my friend reeks of desperation.

Chips Lovell

So you're saying the only thing a politician shouldn't be allowed change his position on over time is his view on a Property Tax?