Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

What was Sinn Fein's view on what we're discussing on this thread 20 years ago, i.e a Property tax?

You attempted to throw the discussion completely off topic with refrences to murders etc.

Well if you can’t see it you can’t see. But you are not alone. Time and again I have noticed the failure of some on the no side to appreciate that inconsistency undermines their arguments.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So you're saying the only thing a politician shouldn't be allowed change his position on over time is his view on a Property Tax?

I am?

Where?

Please link me to where I've said this?

Chips Lovell

Ghandee wrote: »

I am?

Where?

Please link me to where I've said this?

Here:

Ghandee wrote: »

What was Sinn Fein's view on what we're discussing on this thread 20 years ago, i.e a Property tax?

You attempted to throw the discussion completely off topic with refrences to murders etc.

That, my friend reeks of desperation.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Here:

Lol.

What you quoted me was me asking lugha to stay on topic. Something he has repeatedly told me, and others to do on this thread.

Should you wish a debate on Sinn Fein, or any other political parties political view and mandate, feel free to discuss in another thread, hell I'll even contribute to it, but what you are pointing to there, is me asking a poster to stay on topic.

Thats it.

No where in that post do I make any suggestion that

a politician shouldn't be allowed change his position on over time is his view on a Property Tax?

I find it unbelievable that you didnt actually see what my post was in refrence to tbh.

Chips Lovell

Au contraire. I believe it was very much on-topic and addressed your argument.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Au contraire. I believe it was very much on-topic and addressed your argument.

How can you put the murder of the gardai or security personell in the same topic of a property tax is beyond me, completely beyond me.

A thread that exists to discuss the merits of a property tax, links posted to point out the current govs views on property taxes when the weren't in power.

Poster makes reference to a garda being killed by the IRA (not Sinn Fein) back in 1994, how exactly has this any relevance, even in the slightest, to the debate that is being discussed, ie a tax on a persons home?

Incidentally, FWIW, I, and any other right thinking person in this country should, and would condone what happened, but I am at an utter loss how this murder has any relevance to the HHC or property tax whatsoever, it serves no purpose in the argument, other than to purposely, muddy the waters.

Stooped to a new level right here guys.


I await your explaination on how the above, reference to a garda murder 'addressed my argument'?

Chips Lovell

Simply put, you've made out that a politician changing their stance on something over the space of 18 years is somehow unacceptable.

When someone pointed out to you that there are other examples of politicians changing their position in a similar time-scale, you've argued that it's off-topic.

Ghandee

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Simply put, you've made out that a politician changing their stance on something over the space of 18 years is somehow unacceptable.

When someone pointed out to you that there are other examples of politicians changing their position in a similar time-scale, you've argued that it's off-topic.

Simply put, I asked Lugha to tell me what Sinn Fein's stance on a property tax was in 1994, and had that stance changed?

To throw in references and allegations of murder etc was off topic, and I would expect a mod to recognise that fact, otherise I'd be questioning his judgement on other threads.

Property tax stance v murder of a policeman stance.

Completely off topic.

Am Chile

Ghandee wrote: »

According to the independent, Dublin home owners will have to pay substantially more than other home owners in the country.
The article even suggests that in some cases, a property of equal size in Dublin south side could pay considerably more than a similar sized property on the north side.

This will cause outrage by a lot of home owners in Dublin, a lot of middle class hard working families (will they resent this unfair burden on them when it comes to vote casting?)

The article also states the blindingly obvious unfairness on making the cost of services the highest to houses in Dublin, where it costs least to provide them.

A semi detached, 3 bedroom house in somewhere like Templeogue may have an annual tax bill that could be more than double that of a four bedroom detached farm house in rural Offaly.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/property-tax-to-hit-dublin-middle-class-the-hardest-3210207.html[/QUOTE]

Interestingly Varadkar has now come out to say that nothing has been agreed on home value based charges. Varadkar represents Castleknock, an area whose residents that would bear the brunt if todays story in the Irish Independent comes to pass.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0826/property-tax-proposals.html

Le_Dieux

Am Chile wrote: »

Ghandee wrote: »

According to the independent, Dublin home owners will have to pay substantially more than other home owners in the country.
The article even suggests that in some cases, a property of equal size in Dublin south side could pay considerably more than a similar sized property on the north side.

This will cause outrage by a lot of home owners in Dublin, a lot of middle class hard working families (will they resent this unfair burden on them when it comes to vote casting?)

The article also states the blindingly obvious unfairness on making the cost of services the highest to houses in Dublin, where it costs least to provide them.

A semi detached, 3 bedroom house in somewhere like Templeogue may have an annual tax bill that could be more than double that of a four bedroom detached farm house in rural Offaly.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/property-tax-to-hit-dublin-middle-class-the-hardest-3210207.html[/QUOTE]

Interestingly Varadkar has now come out to say that nothing has been agreed on home value based charges. Varadkar represents Castleknock, an area whose residents that would bear the brunt if todays story in the Irish Independent comes to pass.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0826/property-tax-proposals.html

I am currently paying 2.5 years personal tax in 2012 ( an agreement with the Taxman for 2010 & owe €1,500 outstanding for 2011). I paid €1k for 2011 about a month ago, week later the taxman handed me over to the revenue sheriff, where he of course added on interest, AND collection charge. Am up-to-date for 2012.

I havn't paid the HHC for a number of reasons, one being I cannot afford it. Now, if these figures are implemented for next year, I will lock up and throw away the keys. I have had enough. I have a small business which entails driving, getting fleeced at the pumps all the time. Road tax went up last year in the budget, insurance went up even though I have a 5 year NCB to my name. And now if these reports and figures are to be believed, I will walk away. The bastards have bled me DRY...I can go no fu**ing further.

Kenny/Gilmore...You may be the shining example to the troika, but You are DESTROYING business in this Godforsaken country.

PS: PLEase, someone, don't throw the 'govt. aint wholly responsible for the pump price' thing at me. They don't give a flying f**k, as long as the troika are happy, **** paddy!!!

Sorry Mods, just so angry. Am Chile, thanks for sharing the links. I can see civil unrest coming over this. Am just so glad I never registered for this HHC...

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

Still wheeling out what FG views on things were almost 20 years ago, before the boom, never mind the bust?

Well here is a little bit of research you might want to conduct. Have a look at where Sinn Fein stood on various matters in 1994, particularly the whole murderous campaign to subvert this state!

Of course they tell us now that they have moved on but if you hold political parties to views they espoused 20 years ago … :pac:

you could say SF have seen the light, mended their ways, progressing in its view towards co-operation, they have apologised to people north and south, they now accept that their actions were wrong......Inda on the other hand is going in reverse, something he once saw as morally wrong is now ok, if you want to make a comparison with Sinn Fein you could say he is going back to the dark days of the 70's, he is changing his moral viewpoint for the worse.......people can of course change their views over time, but that does not alter the fact that if something was "morally wrong" 20 years ago it is still "morally wrong" today, time and circumstance do not change morality.....

Kurtains.....pull yourself together man !.....sorry couldn't resist

Izzy Skint

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Am Chile wrote: »

I am currently paying 2.5 years personal tax in 2012 ( an agreement with the Taxman for 2010 & owe €1,500 outstanding for 2011). I paid €1k for 2011 about a month ago, week later the taxman handed me over to the revenue sheriff, where he of course added on interest, AND collection charge. Am up-to-date for 2012.

I havn't paid the HHC for a number of reasons, one being I cannot afford it. Now, if these figures are implemented for next year, I will lock up and throw away the keys. I have had enough. I have a small business which entails driving, getting fleeced at the pumps all the time. Road tax went up last year in the budget, insurance went up even though I have a 5 year NCB to my name. And now if these reports and figures are to be believed, I will walk away. The bastards have bled me DRY...I can go no fu**ing further.

Kenny/Gilmore...You may be the shining example to the troika, but You are DESTROYING business in this Godforsaken country.

PS: PLEase, someone, don't throw the 'govt. aint wholly responsible for the pump price' thing at me. They don't give a flying f**k, as long as the troika are happy, **** paddy!!!

Sorry Mods, just so angry. Am Chile, thanks for sharing the links. I can see civil unrest coming over this. Am just so glad I never registered for this HHC...

Le Dieux.....don't let those b*stards get to you my friend, YOU ARE NOT ALONE !!.....we need to carry on with our lives as best we can for families and friends... but we will never forget what they have done !....their actions make me sick, lies, threats, more lies...what they are doing to the Irish people is treason, no other word for it.....god help them if I ever meet any of them in the street.....and I really mean that !!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Le_Dieux

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Le Dieux.....don't let those b*stards get to you my friend, YOU ARE NOT ALONE !!.....we need to carry on with our lives as best we can for families and friends... but we will never forget what they have done !....their actions make me sick, lies, threats, more lies...what they are doing to the Irish people is treason, no other word for it.....god help them if I ever meet any of them in the street.....and I really mean that !!:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Thanks IS. But they HAVE fu**ed me around too much. On top of above, I spent 3 hours yesterday deweeding ( with the estate's residents in a clean-up) the kerbside, something the bloody CC should be doing, but NEVER HAVE in 5 years since the estate opened. Our estate is also incomplete, builder went bust, fu**ing local cllrs told us to pay and TRY reclaim back next year as it was an 'oversight' that we were to pay this year.

How should I feel? Please someone tell me!!! All I know, is a FG or LAB cllr/ TD standing for re-elecion better NOT come knocking on my door. Of course that raises another issue on who to vote for, but thats not what this thread is about.

Am Chile

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Thanks IS. But they HAVE fu**ed me around too much. On top of above, I spent 3 hours yesterday deweeding ( with the estate's residents in a clean-up) the kerbside, something the bloody CC should be doing, but NEVER HAVE in 5 years since the estate opened. Our estate is also incomplete, builder went bust, fu**ing local cllrs told us to pay and TRY reclaim back next year as it was an 'oversight' that we were to pay this year.

How should I feel? Please someone tell me!!! All I know, is a FG or LAB cllr/ TD standing for re-elecion better NOT come knocking on my door. Of course that raises another issue on who to vote for, but thats not what this thread is about.

Its understandable to be pssied off with these shower of bsatards-having seen the recent video of pat rabbite being confronted having lunch-if I ever happen to see a local fg/lab counciler or local fg td in any pub the same time as me-Il be more ready to confront them in the same manner pat rabbite was recently confronted.

Cesium Clock

Le dieux I share your pain, after paying a small fortune in taxes during the tiger years and being self employed its unreal how no one gives a flying feck about us now,
We can't sign on , and we have to compete against the black market, we are paying more at the pump and struggling to keep contracts that are being eroded price wise left right and center,
My business is now not viable but there is no escape from it,

We are trapped in a corner and being squeezed more and more

Time to fight back and stop paying for others greed and ineptitude

Izzy Skint

a few questions for all you pro tax posters....
when is the property tax proposed to start ?......I presumed all along it was January 2013 ?....if so then can one of you explain to me how the hell will they manage to do this with 4 months left in 2012 ?.....are they back from their summer holidays yet ?....
when is the third set of reminder letters due to be posted?
who will value the homes ?...the homeowner ?...they don't have a database of homeowners and probably never will so how will they check this?....how long would it take all homeowners to get this done?....
how will they decide boundaries between areas ? by street, postal address, town, council area, county ?
what about disagreements in valuations ?
will a cert be issued when you pay ?
how will homes be valued up or down over subsequent years if the property market is at a virtual standstill ?
will they expect homeowners in certain areas to begin paying the prop. tax BEFORE other areas or will it be introduced nationwide all at once ?.....
will the value of the home be assessed every year, every 2 years ?....
how will it be collected ? from source ?
will we see an improvement in services ? in which services ?
will the public have recourse to complain if said services are not satisfactory ? :):)
good luck guys if you think our elected imbeciles can sort this out in the next 4 months, more like 4 years at the very least !:):):):)

Izzy Skint

Cesium Clock wrote: »

Le dieux I share your pain, after paying a small fortune in taxes during the tiger years and being self employed its unreal how no one gives a flying feck about us now,
We can't sign on , and we have to compete against the black market, we are paying more at the pump and struggling to keep contracts that are being eroded price wise left right and center,
My business is now not viable but there is no escape from it,

We are trapped in a corner and being squeezed more and more

Time to fight back and stop paying for others greed and ineptitude

Cesium, I have a phrase for the situation which many in this country now find themselves in.....I call it "the employment trap"

dvpower

Izzy Skint wrote: »

a few questions for all you pro tax posters....
when is the property tax proposed to start ?......I presumed all along it was January 2013 ?....if so then can one of you explain to me how the hell will they manage to do this with 4 months left in 2012 ?.....are they back from their summer holidays yet ?....
when is the third set of reminder letters due to be posted?
who will value the homes ?...the homeowner ?...they don't have a database of homeowners and probably never will so how will they check this?....how long would it take all homeowners to get this done?....
how will they decide boundaries between areas ? by street, postal address, town, council area, county ?
what about disagreements in valuations ?
will a cert be issued when you pay ?
how will homes be valued up or down over subsequent years if the property market is at a virtual standstill ?
will they expect homeowners in certain areas to begin paying the prop. tax BEFORE other areas or will it be introduced nationwide all at once ?.....
will the value of the home be assessed every year, every 2 years ?....
how will it be collected ? from source ?
will we see an improvement in services ? in which services ?
will the public have recourse to complain if said services are not satisfactory ? :):)
good luck guys if you think our elected imbeciles can sort this out in the next 4 months, more like 4 years at the very least !:):):):)

It is almost unbelievable that someone who has been posting on this topic for so long remains with so many questions that they don't know the answer to.

lugha

Izzy Skint wrote: »

you could say SF have seen the light, mended their ways, progressing in its view towards co-operation, they have apologised to people north and south, they now accept that their actions were wrong......Inda on the other hand is going in reverse, something he once saw as morally wrong is now ok, if you want to make a comparison with Sinn Fein you could say he is going back to the dark days of the 70's, he is changing his moral viewpoint for the worse.......people can of course change their views over time, but that does not alter the fact that if something was "morally wrong" 20 years ago it is still "morally wrong" today, time and circumstance do not change morality.....

I think you have misread Sinn Fein if you think they are in any way apologetic for their past. But let’s not go there. I drew the comparison to make the point (even if some did not get it!) that it is plainly daft to expect any politician to have unchanging views over a span of two decades.

As for morality, perhaps EK still believes that is morally wrong (I don’t) but now sees it as a necessary evil? But it is also morally wrong that Irish tax payers have to foot the bill for the baking fiasco. And it is certainly morally wrong that future Irish generations will be burdened with the mistakes that this one has made, whoever you choose to blame. In short, rejecting a course of action because it may be morally wrong is not a realistic option for us just now.

Izzy Skint

Cesium Clock wrote: »

Le dieux I share your pain, after paying a small fortune in taxes during the tiger years and being self employed its unreal how no one gives a flying feck about us now,
We can't sign on , and we have to compete against the black market, we are paying more at the pump and struggling to keep contracts that are being eroded price wise left right and center,
My business is now not viable but there is no escape from it,

We are trapped in a corner and being squeezed more and more

Time to fight back and stop paying for others greed and ineptitude

It is a total disgrace that self employed can't sign on and yet others can sign on when they are 18, spend whole life on dole and get their pension at 65 without paying 1 cent tax all those years and without providing any proof of looking for work !!.....what kind of mad bureaucratic systems have we got in this country ?....where is the incentive to work ?.....where is our minister for justice , equality and law reform ?....oh I forgot, he is another waste of space.....

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

It is almost unbelievable that someone who has been posting on this topic for so long remains with so many questions that they don't know the answer to.

DV, O enlightened one, please share your wisdom and answer the questions....or will you "do an Alastair" and ignore questions I have posed....tick tock tick tock....2013 on its way:):):)

dvpower

Izzy Skint wrote: »

DV, O enlightened one, please share your wisdom and answer the questions....or will you "do an Alastair" and ignore questions I have posed....tick tock tick tock....2013 on its way:):):)

tbh if you don't already know the answers to most of the questions you posed, I don't think I'm qualified to help you.

tayto lover

Things are about to get a lot harder for anyone struggling already, which is probably most of us -
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tax-increases-and-benefit-cuts-on-way-to-satisfy-euimf-3209786.html

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

I think you have misread Sinn Fein if you think they are in any way apologetic for their past. But let’s not go there. I drew the comparison to make the point (even if some did not get it!) that it is plainly daft to expect any politician to have unchanging views over a span of two decades.

As for morality, perhaps EK still believes that is morally wrong (I don’t) but now sees it as a necessary evil? But it is also morally wrong that Irish tax payers have to foot the bill for the baking fiasco. And it is certainly morally wrong that future Irish generations will be burdened with the mistakes that this one has made, whoever you choose to blame. In short, rejecting a course of action because it may be morally wrong is not a realistic option for us just now.

SF have apologised for past actions, I have already said that I accept people can change their views but when those views have a moral issue attached to them then there is no black and white....if EK thinks it's still morally wrong then why doesn't he say so ?....or is he gutless like the rest of our politicians?.....I agree with you, it is morally wrong that future Irish generations will be burdened with the mistakes others have made, as so many of the pro taxers have stated here, it's done now, we just have to accept it.....however we can still decide how we can cut our deficit, it is morally wrong for a regime to punish it's people when it's the regime itself that needs fixing.
you said "rejecting a course of action because it may be morally wrong is not a realistic option for us just now"....so morality may have to take a back seat because of our financial situation ?....ok....lets cut social welfare by 50%, or how about restricting social welfare to irish people only?.. are all these options on the table if morality is not a priority at the moment ?.....do you think I am hitting way below the belt, am I out of order ?.....well it was you who made the comparison between Sinn Fein and Inda ....

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

tbh if you don't already know the answers to most of the questions you posed, I don't think I'm qualified to help you.

I don't know the answers, that's why I am asking, thought you govt. lovers would have all the answers?....come on DV, at least try to answer them....your credibility is at stake:)

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

Things are about to get a lot harder for anyone struggling already, which is probably most of us -
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tax-increases-and-benefit-cuts-on-way-to-satisfy-euimf-3209786.html

Here is one way people can help themselves to budget better. Don't buy food and then throw it away without eating it. This is costing an average of €1000 per year per household, something hard to believe in a country which is supposed to have 775,000 people on the verge of poverty.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/pricewatch/2011/0919/1224304347447.html

The waste does not stop there. There is also the 30 per cent of food bought in our supermarkets that we throw out because it has gone off or we have gone off the idea of eating it.

According to figures published earlier this year by Stop Food Waste, a programme developed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as part of the National Waste Prevention Programme, food waste arising out of store-bought produce is costing the average Irish household more than €1,000 a year.


BTW your Independent article says the average property tax
will be €300, just another number picked from the sky by journalists.

Izzy Skint

tayto lover wrote: »

Things are about to get a lot harder for anyone struggling already, which is probably most of us -
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tax-increases-and-benefit-cuts-on-way-to-satisfy-euimf-3209786.html

they really haven't got a clue....traitors are implementing more cuts and increases in all the wrong places....which one of them is using the government brain cell next week ?

Izzy Skint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Here is one way people can help themselves to budget better. Don't buy food and then throw it away without eating it. This is costing an average of €1000 per year per household, something hard to believe in a country which is supposed to have 775,000 people on the verge of poverty.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/pricewatch/2011/0919/1224304347447.html

The waste does not stop there. There is also the 30 per cent of food bought in our supermarkets that we throw out because it has gone off or we have gone off the idea of eating it.

According to figures published earlier this year by Stop Food Waste, a programme developed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) as part of the National Waste Prevention Programme, food waste arising out of store-bought produce is costing the average Irish household more than €1,000 a year.


BTW your Independent article says the average property tax
will be €300, just another number picked from the sky by journalists.

€300 a year ?....picked from the sky....they are probably way out, I thought the govt. stated earlier this year they wanted to raise €1.5b per year from the property tax?...

dxhound2005

Izzy Skint wrote: »

€300 a year ?....picked from the sky....they are probably way out, I thought the govt. stated earlier this year they wanted to raise €1.5b per year from the property tax?...

Well if it is €300 lots of people will be €700 better off if they stop buying food they don't need.

Chips Lovell

We won't really know the details until budget day