Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Hijpo

ncdadam wrote: »

lugha wrote: »

Perhaps you’d forgotten but Mick the T.D. (who don’t forget in on YOUR side in not paying the HHC) offered exactly this reason (protecting jobs) for not paying his dues so it appears that you are cherry picking a bit here. FWIW, I think a moment’s reflection would tell you what every business in the country would do if the revenue adopted a position of tolerating defaulters if it meant jobs would be saved.

And of course it is absolutely gob smacking hypocrisy for someone who declines to pay taxes / charges that they are obliged to by the state and then criticise someone else for doing exactly the same thing, would you not agree?



Not true. With or without the bailout and bondholders we would still have a massive deficit.

How much have we paid to unsecured bondholders in the last 4 years?

Money that we are borrowing to do so.

How much interest does that accrue every year?

the pro's dont care how much or where it comes from. aslong as the average home owner is hit for anothr few bob with nothig to show for it while the fat cats on the gravy train are left alone. they are not botherd and id love to know why, maybe they are fat cats or working there way up to that level.

lugha

ncdadam wrote: »

How much have we paid to unsecured bondholders in the last 4 years?

Money that we are borrowing to do so.

How much interest does that accrue every year?

As I said, even without this extra bother, we would still have a massive deficit. Regarding bankers and bondholders on the sum total of our problems is at odds with reality.

Hijpo wrote: »

the pro's dont care how much or where it comes from. aslong as the average home owner is hit for anothr few bob w

The pros know that there is no way out of the problems we are in that will not involve measures that will hit ordinary people very hard. If you have a viable alternative solution, tell us what it is.

ncdadam

lugha wrote: »

As I said, even without this extra bother, we would still have a massive deficit. Regarding bankers and bondholders on the sum total of our problems is at odds with reality.

That doesn't answer the questions I asked.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Well I never! What a despicable notion that you might pay your tax, as you earn? Where did they get such an idea?

Sorry, but what do you mean by this. You are hardly talking about property tax, because, you state above, tax, as you earn. If you are talking about property tax, well, you are out of context here. I mean, a person that builds or buys a home simply to house his family, is not earning an income from his home. On the contrary, he is forever pumping money into that home in respect of decor, maintenence, possible repairs through damage, wear & tear etc. But I have already explained this to you several times.

ncdadam

lugha wrote: »

The pros know that there is no way out of the problems we are in that will not involve measures that will hit ordinary people very hard. If you have a viable alternative solution, tell us what it is.

Peter Matthew's had 2 good ideas on VB last night.

Raising our corporate tax rate to €15% raises €400 million per year I think he said and a 5% extra tax for 3 or 4 years on people earning €120k would give another €500 million per year.

That's just 2 ideas, and from a FG politician!

He'll probably be asked to leave the party.

lugha

ncdadam wrote: »

That doesn't answer the questions I asked.

Don’t deflect as Ghandee might say. You clearly stated that the reason we have a deficit is solely because of the bondholders / banks.

ncdadam wrote: »

Yes, we have a deficit and yes, it has to be got under control, but we should remember why we have a deficit and why our economy collapsed.

The billions that we've borrowed to pay off bondholders and prop up bankrupt banks and the interest we will have to pay will sink this country.

This is not true.

lugha

ncdadam wrote: »

Peter Matthew's had 2 good ideas on VB last night.

Raising our corporate tax rate to €15% raises €400 million per year I think he said and a 5% extra tax for 3 or 4 years on people earning €120k would give another €500 million per year.

That's just 2 ideas, and from a FG politician!

He'll probably be asked to leave the party.

The thread is not about what measures might be used to reduce our deficit, it is about why property tax should be ruled out as one such option, despite its advantages. As it happens I have commented on both of these measures before, but that is OT.

darkhorse wrote: »

I mean, a person that builds or buys a home simply to house his family, is not earning an income from his home.

Well I contend than in effect, they do. But obviously you don’t see it that way.

Hijpo

ncdadam wrote: »

lugha wrote: »

The pros know that there is no way out of the problems we are in that will not involve measures that will hit ordinary people very hard. If you have a viable alternative solution, tell us what it is.

Peter Matthew's had 2 good ideas on VB last night.

Raising our corporate tax rate to €15% raises €400 million per year I think he said and a 5% extra tax for 3 or 4 years on people earning €120k would give another €500 million per year.

That's just 2 ideas, and from a FG politician!

He'll probably be asked to leave the party.

but dv and lugha might be in a position where those measures impact them now or in a few years so they are never going to agree to that. stick it to the lowely home owner, they have money for sky and broadband take it off them.

ncdadam

lugha wrote: »

Don’t deflect as Ghandee might say. You clearly stated that the reason we have a deficit is solely because of the bondholders / banks.



This is not true.

Sorry, where did I state that?

Those were 2 different sentences and 2 different points.

Deflecting? You still didn't answer the questions I asked you.

lugha

ncdadam wrote: »

Sorry, where did I state that?

Those were 2 different sentences and 2 different points.

Fair enough. I read it as the first asking a question and the second as providing your view on the answer.

ncdadam

lugha wrote: »

The thread is not about what measures might be used to reduce our deficit, it is about why property tax should be ruled out as one such option

This thread is, as far as I know, called 'Household charge mega-thread'.

Nowhere does it say it's about why a property tax should be ruled out that I can see.

I would have presumed it's a general discussion about this and other taxes that could reduce our deficit.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

Don’t deflect as Ghandee might say. You clearly stated that the reason we have a deficit is solely because of the bondholders / banks.



This is not true.

Maybe you would care to answer my question so?

No 'deflection', how much less would the deficit be lugha if we decided to not hand over billions to the bondholders, we are not obliged to pay back.
(unsecured should mean just that)

Between 3rd Sept and 1st of Oct alone this year we will be paying back 1.6 billion, thats in a period of less than 30 days, but astonishingly its the equivalent of 10 years revenue they hope to get from the HHC. (paid out in less than a month)

Why, have the Govt been so adamant this payment must be collected, with threats of changing data privacy laws, and essential services being cut, OAPS in fear of losing their home, if it wasnt paid, yet they wont refuse to pay these un-named, anonymous bondholders in European countries that we will never know of their identities.

Our Govt, the people we elected to represent us? Yet its us who get the shafting

Why have they prioritised the HHC collection over debt write downs and burning bondholders?

Take your time now.


As honest an answer as you can muster up please.

ncdadam

Ghandee wrote: »

Maybe you would care to answer my question so?

No 'deflection', how much less would the deficit be lugha if we decided to not hand over billions to the bondholders, we are not obliged to pay back.
(unsecured should mean just that)

Between 3rd Sept and 1st of Oct alone this year we will be paying back 1.6 billion, thats in a period of less than 30 days, but astonishingly os the equivalent of 10 years revenue they hope to get from the HHC.

Why, have the Govt been so adamant this payment must be collected, with threats of changing data privacy laws, and essential services being cut, OAPS in fear of losing their home, if it wasnt paid, yet they wont refuse to pay these un-named, anonymous bondholders in European countries that we will never know of their identities.

Our Govt, the people we elected to represent us? Yet its us who get the shafting

Why have they prioritised the HHC collection over debt write downs and burning bondholders?

Take your time now.


As honest an answer as you can muster up please.

Hi.

I think the letter that's been kept under wraps from the ECB might answer a few of the above questions.

Ghandee

ncdadam wrote: »

Hi.

I think the letter that's been kept under wraps from the ECB might answer a few of the above questions.

Its a pity all the billions of euro paid out unecessarily will have did us no good at all if it eventually collapses.

As some people 'in the know' think it just might....

http://www.cnbc.com/id/48721839/Lord_Rothschild_in_200_Million_Bet_Against_Euro_Report

Le_Dieux

donalg1 wrote: »

A private estate is an estate that isn't a council estate one that was not built by.the council. One that is made up of privately owned houses. Taken in charge means the council take over responsibility for the roads and services within the estate. Do you think it becomes a council estate or something? Was it you that was on a RA?

So, who owns the green areas?

I'm not making any comment on the above until I make a few phone calls tomorrow to ascertain just who is owning these greens. BTW, we ( the residents) still contribute €60/annum to cut the grass, deweed, clean-up etc.

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

Perhaps you’d forgotten but Mick the T.D. (who don’t forget in on YOUR side in not paying the HHC) offered exactly this reason (protecting jobs) for not paying his dues so it appears that you are cherry picking a bit here. FWIW, I think a moment’s reflection would tell you what every business in the country would do if the revenue adopted a position of tolerating defaulters if it meant jobs would be saved.

And of course it is absolutely gob smacking hypocrisy for someone who declines to pay taxes / charges that they are obliged to by the state and then criticise someone else for doing exactly the same thing, would you not agree?



Not true. With or without the bailout and bondholders we would still have a massive deficit.

I am on my own side lugha. I am not part of a concerted campaign and never have been. I attended no meetings and read very little literature about it. I am not paying because I see it as an attack on my home. An attack on people who did the state a favour by being productive and not claiming from it. Working hard and paying a mortgage should not be punishable by extra taxes being heaped on you. I will stand up for what I believe in and I see myself as having nothing in common with the likes of Mick Wallace or for that matter Phil Hogan.

ncdadam

Le_Dieux wrote: »

So, who owns the green areas?

I'm not making any comment on the above until I make a few phone calls tomorrow to ascertain just who is owning these greens. BTW, we ( the residents) still contribute €60/annum to cut the grass, deweed, clean-up etc.

I thought that when a council takes an estate in charge the common areas are ceeded to the councils ownership and then they maintain them.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/BuildingControlandFireSafetySection/BuildingControlTransportation/FileDownload,20423,en.pdf

Le_Dieux

lugha wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghandee
Self employed, how will it be deducted from their source?

Same difficulty we have with income tax.


These are minor logistical concerns. I have every faith in the fine people in the civil service to sort them out.:)

I am self employed. I pay PRSI, for which I get SFA. May I ask what is the difficulty You refer to Lugha?

Le_Dieux

ncdadam wrote: »

I thought that when a council takes an estate in charge the common areas are ceeded to the councils ownership and then they maintain them.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Planning/BuildingControlandFireSafetySection/BuildingControlTransportation/FileDownload,20423,en.pdf

I still would love to know just how DV is so certain the council don't own the greens. Surely then he/she must have some idea just who does!!!

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

Perhaps you’d forgotten but Mick the T.D. (who don’t forget in on YOUR side in not paying the HHC) offered exactly this reason (protecting jobs) for not paying his dues so it appears that you are cherry picking a bit here. FWIW, I think a moment’s reflection would tell you what every business in the country would do if the revenue adopted a position of tolerating defaulters if it meant jobs would be saved.

And of course it is absolutely gob smacking hypocrisy for someone who declines to pay taxes / charges that they are obliged to by the state and then criticise someone else for doing exactly the same thing, would you not agree?



Not true. With or without the bailout and bondholders we would still have a massive deficit.

lugha, you are correct, leaving aside the rape of the irish people for billions of € by our own politicians and european bankers / bondholders, we would still have a massive deficit....spot on....government spending DOUBLED between 2000 and 2008....what was it spent on?....any ideas ?....why can't it be cut to what it was before the property fiasco?....I can't recall any improvement in "local services" during these "boom" years, can you ?
it was spent on ps pay, pensions (remember benchmarking ?), wasted in the HSE, lavish social welfare system, quangos all over the place (we still have over 600 quangos !!!), a billion a year on FAS etc. etc. do you remember all of this ****e ?...this has to be reversed or we will be f*cked up good and proper.

I am sick of saying this, the govt. are liars, they are doing the very things they should NOT be doing in the present situation. You pro taxers want everyone to share the pain, you say extra taxes combined with spending cuts are the way to go...wrong, we have a €15b deficit, do you think this economy could take another lets say €5b in extra taxes ?....could people manage?....could the economy grow under these conditions?...the govt. are factoring in growth, without it we are going downhill fast.

Just one other point for you to ponder over, lets just say that they do manage to close the deficit to manageable levels, what happens if there is another financial meltdown ? or world recession? or major unemployment growth?....WE WOULD BE F*CKED as we would have no room for manoeuvre, we did not cut spending enough and we taxed too much....what do we do then ?....can we then heap further taxes on the people?....europe is up the creek at the moment, spain or italy could go belly up at any time (september will be an important month)...what about a decline in the US?, they have been printing money as fast as they can spend it, there are many potential pitfalls ahead for the world economy, we need to prepare for this, the chances and stakes are high....you can only take so much, the sooner the govt. realise the better for all of us, maybe they do realise this and haven't got the balls, after all, as you have said, those electricity workers are prone to a walkout or two, and we all know what teachers are like, Inda is one of them....nuff said.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

@Ghandee


how do you explain the previous property taxes we've had in this country .

I have, G.

Immoral and Unjust

ncdadam

darkhorse wrote: »

I have, G.

Immoral and Unjust

It's only immoral and unjust while in opposition!

tayto lover

Medical Cards and Social Welfare to be hit next by orders of the Troika.
Why do we need a Govt at all when Europe is already ruling us?

Flex

Ghandee wrote: »

But the deficit would be how many billions less?

1.6 billion getting paid over in a period of less than thirty days in sept-Oct alone. Billions that could have and should have been refused.

Ghandee you and a lot of the no more taxes side dont seem understand this. That €1.6 isnt that big a deal. Its a once off payment. We wont even be paying it techncally, we'll simply be servicing interest on the money borrowed to pay it. For perspective, that €1.6B payout will add about €40m a year to our deficit of some €16B (0.25% of it), then thats it. The bank bailout isnt a major part of our deficit.

Ironically, the bank bailout is probably the best thing to happen for the 'no side' and the economically left; it allows them to avoid putting forward any coherent or rational arguments to support their position. Examples;

• Im not gonna support any cuts to welfare, because of the banks
• Im not gonna accept higher taxes, sure its all to bail out the banks
• Im not gonna do anything, sure its all for German bondholders
• The only reason the country has a deficit is because of the banks

And all these other things about ministers wasting thousands of euro. This is actually something Im completely on board with sorting out, but I suspect the people using it as an excuse to refuse to pay taxes are just using it as a strawman. If every piece of corruption and waste was eliminated Ive no doubt there'd then be objections along the lines of "Yea well Im not paying more taxes because the weather isnt warm enough. Once the government sorts out the cold weather, so the poor people of Ireland who cant afford foreign holidays in the sun can finally enjoy some good weather at home, THEN Ill pay more tax. Im sick of them going on sunny holidays while the rest of us have to stay here in the cold. Its morally unjust and unfair" (last paragraph there is an attempt to add a bit of humour by the way )

donalg1

Le_Dieux wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

A private estate is an estate that isn't a council estate one that was not built by.the council. One that is made up of privately owned houses. Taken in charge means the council take over responsibility for the roads and services within the estate. Do you think it becomes a council estate or something? Was it you that was on a RA?

So, who owns the green areas?

I'm not making any comment on the above until I make a few phone calls tomorrow to ascertain just who is owning these greens. BTW, we ( the residents) still contribute €60/annum to cut the grass, deweed, clean-up etc.

I have no idea who owns them I assume however the council don't as if they did they would maintain them same way they maintain the grass on the roads they do own. Unless there is something different with these common areas, still doesn't change the fact that they won't cut the grass if they take the estate in charge though.

darkhorse

tayto lover wrote: »

On another front, the Target Haulage Company seems to have been shut down by the Revenue as it owes 1 million to them. Now they have put 400 people out of work by doing this. It is estimated that the company owes 2,500 e per worker to the Revenue.
How can it make sense to shut this company down as those workers will now be claiming dole etc every week. They will have claimed a million in no time. So instead of contributing to the exchequer from their wages they are now taking money from it. Madness.
This could and should have been dealt with better.
The company say that they are also owed most of a million from semi-state agencies but have to wait up to 60 days for payment while the revenue will only wait 19 days. They blame the cost of fuel as being part of the problem which no doubt it is. Could the Govt not have done something to help keep these jobs and the company of the year 2011 in business?

How the cost of petrol is made up --

Litre of un refined oil – 52c
Refining cost – 17c
Irish Excise Taxes, Carbon taxes, Oil Reserves agency levy – 59c
Distributor – 6c
Retailer – 5 c
Vat on all of above – 32c

Total 1.71 e

They will actually be entitled to have claimed a minimum of four million euro's in welfare payments within twelve months between them, tayto. But, hey, thats just me looking at the amount that the govt. (through the revenue) are willing to waste, rather than give the owner of the company a bit more time to pay his tax due. I could be wrong, I hope I am.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Do you have a source for this?

I do, yes.

Izzy Skint

Flex wrote: »

Ghandee you and a lot of the no more taxes side dont seem understand this. That €1.6 isnt that big a deal. Its a once off payment. We wont even be paying it techncally, we'll simply be servicing interest on the money borrowed to pay it. For perspective, that €1.6B payout will add about €40m a year to our deficit of some €16B (0.25% of it), then thats it. The bank bailout isnt a major part of our deficit.

Ironically, the bank bailout is probably the best thing to happen for the 'no side' and the economically left; it allows them to avoid putting forward any coherent or rational arguments to support their position. Examples;

• Im not gonna support any cuts to welfare, because of the banks
• Im not gonna accept higher taxes, sure its all to bail out the banks
• Im not gonna do anything, sure its all for German bondholders
• The only reason the country has a deficit is because of the banks

And all these other things about ministers wasting thousands of euro. This is actually something Im completely on board with sorting out, but I suspect the people using it as an excuse to refuse to pay taxes are just using it as a strawman. If every piece of corruption and waste was eliminated Ive no doubt there'd then be objections along the lines of "Yea well Im not paying more taxes because the weather isnt warm enough. Once the government sorts out the cold weather, so the poor people of Ireland who cant afford foreign holidays in the sun can finally enjoy some good weather at home, THEN Ill pay more tax. Im sick of them going on sunny holidays while the rest of us have to stay here in the cold. Its morally unjust and unfair" (last paragraph there is an attempt to add a bit of humour by the way )

FLEX, do you pro tax guys get it at all ?...people have taken big cuts in pay, extra taxes, rising cost of living etc. over the past 4 years, many are struggling, those in work are now being classed as "the new poor", there is something seriously wrong when a person in work can barely survive on an average wage, there is something even more seriously wrong when it would be more beneficial for that same person to be on welfare !!
what the f*ck would you expect people to do ?....gladly pay up beacause we need to pay bondholders, because we need to close the deficit due to wasteful overspending?...and a tax on their HOMES !!...of all the things to tax, thousands in serious debt, struggling, and during a recession !!...now was definitely not the right time, there is no right time.

€1.6b...not a big deal !!!!.....my advice, seek medical help mate!..... if €1.6 is not a big deal then the €500m from property tax should just be abolished so...pocket change.....and you are incorrect, of course we are paying it, the bailout was partially to cover bank bailout and state running costs....hope your not an accontant, did you have anything to do with that €3b mis-calculation in dept of finance ??

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

Where did I say I was certain they don't own it.

donalg1 wrote: »

The green area in the estate doesn't belong to the council.

Does, too.

Hijpo

what would be a right money saving project would be cut dail numbers to 80 and cap all TD's salaries at 100k and 80k for ministers half there allowances and tax exemptions and give them a modest pension.
that might even get rid of the rest of the greedy scum only there for the salary and pension that enables them to retire at 55. then if you get into politics its because you have an interest in running the country and take **** seriously instead of bickering like a class of 3rd year secondry school students before sitting down with them for a pint in the bar afterwards in your place of work.
how many days in the year do they sit in the dail again?