Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Am Chile

darkhorse wrote: »

I wiil have to stand with the indo. on this one, A.C., as Noonan posed for a photo for the indo.

With different messages in different news articles I guess we will all have to wait and see what the story is when all the details are annouced officially, Il bear in mind the Indo had stories earlier this year about council workers knocking in doors for money relating to the household tax, and another story about no tax clearance certs to be given due to non payment of the household tax, both stories turned out to be false in the long run.

ncdadam

lugha wrote: »

Well it is that. But pretty much every other proposal, be it a tax hike or a spending cut, will be judged on their merits. E.g. What savings would be achieved? Might it be counter-productive? etc. Property tax is a little different in that there is a widespread but erroneous belief that there is something fundamentally wrong with taxing a family home, that it simply should not be considered as an option. Hence the challenge to those who take such a stance is to reason why not? They have failed totally to so reason (they do so emote, which is something different)

When rates were abolished here by FF they were, bit by bit, clawed back in a myriad of stealth taxes which we still pay.

Now they want to bring in a property tax and still keep the stealth taxes.

Double taxation but only for people who are property owners.

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

I wiil have to stand with the indo. on this one, A.C., as Noonan posed for a photo for the indo.

Both of the articles are speculation. There has been no statement from Noonan saying it would be deducted at source - if there was they would have quoted him. At best this information is coming from officials or a bit of kite flying.

As for posing for photos? Really?

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Both of the articles are speculation. There has been no statement from Noonan saying it would be deducted at source - if there was they would have quoted him. At best this information is coming from officials or a bit of kite flying.

As for posing for photos? Really?

Really, Really. Is it just me that sees the photograph.

By the way, do you think that any journo or editor is going to publish that a Minister admits to something if he did'nt, in this climate. A yes or no will do.

This is the very last time:

Workers to have property tax deducted from wages

bgrizzley

So let me get this straight, they won't increase income tax because it's bad for employment and jobs but they will take it from source, the same as an income tax. Are these guys just thick? Why not just do away with this morally unjust tax, rise the other and maybe save some face while they still can.

ncdadam

bgrizzley wrote: »

So let me get this straight, they won't increase income tax because it's bad for employment and jobs but they will take it from source, the same as an income tax. Are these guys just thick? Why not just do away with this morally unjust tax, rise the other and maybe save some face while they still can.

Ah but lads, it's not a rise in income tax.

It's a property tax, nothing to do with your income even though it's taken from the same source.

When they cut the dole it'll probably be called a 'voluntary charitable donation to the state', not a cut at all.

Semantics, nothing more than semantics!

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

Really, Really. Is it just me that sees the photograph.

By the way, do you think that any journo or editor is going to publish that a Minister admits to something if he did'nt, in this climate. A yes or no will do.

This is the very last time:

Workers to have property tax deducted from wages

No we all see the photo - you just ascribe some special meaning to it.

And, yes, journalists sometimes speculate.

lugha

ncdadam wrote: »

When rates were abolished here by FF they were, bit by bit, clawed back in a myriad of stealth taxes which we still pay.

Now they want to bring in a property tax and still keep the stealth taxes.

Double taxation but only for people who are property owners.

If we did not have a massive deficit there may be some argument for a reduction in taxes / charges elsewhere on introducing a property tax. But part of the way we address this deficit will be to introduce / raise new taxes.

And yes, it is a tax that only some will pay. Exactly the same as any tax or charge you care to mention.

ncdadam wrote: »

It's a property tax, nothing to do with your income even though it's taken from the same source.

All taxes come out of people’s income but they are not all income taxes. Error in your reasoning.

bgrizzley wrote: »

So let me get this straight, they won't increase income tax because it's bad for employment and jobs but they will take it from source, the same as an income tax. Are these guys just thick?

If there was a one to one correspondence between property owners and workers then of course, that would be true but there isn’t so it’s not. Some property owners may not receive an income in this state and often, there are multiple (typically two) incomes per house. Error in your reasoning.

bgrizzley wrote: »

Why not just do away with this morally unjust tax, rise the other.

Because the view that it is a morally unjust tax in one formed by folk who have errors in their reasoning. :P

Le_Dieux

tayto lover wrote: »

You need to read up on the Mick Wallace thing then. There was "crookery" involved.
With regard to Target Express you also need to read up on it. They would have been able to pay given time and 400 would not be on the dole eating up more taxes instead of contributing to the tax base. They were willing and able to pay if given time. We all get behind in our bills at times.
My stance on the HHC/Property Tax does NOT involve hiding anything or "crookery". I am completely up-front about my reasons for not paying. I will not pay a tax on my own home which I alone provided and maintained but especially when the tax is only being directed at homeowners.
You can reword your question and come back as often as you like but you will get the same answer. It is unjust and unfair.

While I'm in total agreement with You on the MW scenario Tayto_Lover, I am beginning to think we are not hearing the whole story regarding TE. If it was only the revenue, then why are the workers turning against the proprietor? Also, we are told they ( TE ) paid over €1M to the revenue, and only owed something like €400,000 more. Hard to see them closing down a business in that scenario.

I don't know, somehow, I feel there is more to this story to come out.

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

Really, Really. Is it just me that sees the photograph.

By the way, do you think that any journo or editor is going to publish that a Minister admits to something if he did'nt, in this climate. A yes or no will do.

This is the very last time:

Workers to have property tax deducted from wages

You're in Donegal. It seems that there is some money to spare in the county. Donegal jerseys sold out and thousands waiting for new supplies at about €50 each.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/green-and-gold-in-demand-as-donegal-jerseys-sell-out-205607.html

I was at the five away games Donegal have played in the championship including two in Dublin. Probably about 100,000 Donegal fans and it wouldn't be a cheap trip with a day or two in Dublin or even to Clones. And probably 80,000 will be willing to fork out €80 for a ticket next month. I don't think the HHC or a property tax will tip thousands of home owners into poverty on that evidence. The Donegal people I saw didn't strike me as if they came for some rich elite, just ordinary folk.

And in other news Paddy Powers profits up 20% after increasing 50% last year. This should enable their top brass to continue paying themselves many multiples of what the Taoiseach gets. But they surely deserve it for parting people some of whom can't or won't pay €100 HHC from their cash in the pursuit of mostly futile aims. Paddy Power to run the country.

http://businessandleadership.com/business/item/36872-paddy-powers-pre-tax/

With the average household throwing away €1000 worth of food every year and about €120 billion in personal savings in the country I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

If we did not have a massive deficit there may be some argument for a reduction in taxes / charges elsewhere on introducing a property tax. But part of the way we address this deficit will be to introduce / raise new taxes.

part? how much of a part are we talking about? how much of the deficit can be clawed back through efficient cuts and how much are they planning to extort through taxes and charges?

Le_Dieux

bgrizzley wrote: »

So let me get this straight, they won't increase income tax because it's bad for employment and jobs but they will take it from source, the same as an income tax. Are these guys just thick? Why not just do away with this morally unjust tax, rise the other and maybe save some face while they still can.

This is totally unrelated, but at the same time raises a point: I remember years ago the authorities in Stockholm buuilt an underground/metro/tube call it what You like. It was being patronised by few people as it was deemed too expensive. What did the Swedes do? They cut the fares in half, and ended up not having enough carriages.

Why am I quoting this? Because surely ( and to reiterate BG's point) there MUST be another way to raise the capitol.

Oh bring on the next elections:rolleyes:

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You're in Donegal. It seems that there is some money to spare in the county. Donegal jerseys sold out and thousands waiting for new supplies at about €50 each.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/green-and-gold-in-demand-as-donegal-jerseys-sell-out-205607.html

I was at the five away games Donegal have played in the championship including two in Dublin. Probably about 100,000 Donegal fans and it wouldn't be a cheap trip with a day or two in Dublin or even to Clones. And probably 80,000 will be willing to fork out €80 for a ticket next month. I don't think the HHC or a property tax will tip thousands of home owners into poverty on that evidence. The Donegal people I saw didn't strike me as if they came for some rich elite, just ordinary folk.

And in other news Paddy Powers profits up 20% after increasing 50% last year. This should enable their top brass to continue paying themselves many multiples of what the Taoiseach gets. But they surely deserve it for parting people some of whom can't or won't pay €100 HHC from their cash in the pursuit of mostly futile aims. Paddy Power to run the country.

http://businessandleadership.com/business/item/36872-paddy-powers-pre-tax/

With the average household throwing away €1000 worth of food every year and about €120 billion in personal savings in the country I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

Dx, this will be the fifth time I'll ask you to please acknowledge in some shape or form that you've repeatedly lied on these threads for six months now.

Will you please admit that you've lied in the following post I've quoted you in here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440149&postcount=52

Be a man, I'll admit when I'm wrong, it seems however you're not prepared to grant me the same courtesy.

Incidentally, I'd like to think I emerge the better person.

tayto lover

Le_Dieux wrote: »

While I'm in total agreement with You on the MW scenario Tayto_Lover, I am beginning to think we are not hearing the whole story regarding TE. If it was only the revenue, then why are the workers turning against the proprietor? Also, we are told they ( TE ) paid over €1M to the revenue, and only owed something like €400,000 more. Hard to see them closing down a business in that scenario.

I don't know, somehow, I feel there is more to this story to come out.

There might well be more to it but an angry worker will hit out at anyone he thinks might have anything to do with his problem Those workers are owed two weeks wages and have kids going back to school and mortgages to pay. They are bound to be angry. There could very well be a lot more to it than we are being told though.

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

If we did not have a massive deficit there may be some argument for a reduction in taxes / charges elsewhere on introducing a property tax. But part of the way we address this deficit will be to introduce / raise new taxes.

And yes, it is a tax that only some will pay. Exactly the same as any tax or charge you care to mention.

All taxes come out of people’s income but they are not all income taxes. Error in your reasoning.

If there was a one to one correspondence between property owners and workers then of course, that would be true but there isn’t so it’s not. Some property owners may not receive an income in this state and often, there are multiple (typically two) incomes per house. Error in your reasoning.



Because the view that it is a morally unjust tax in one formed by folk who have errors in their reasoning. :P

The majority of people liable for this tax are either working or perhaps elderly who have worked all their lives to pay for their house and deserve some rest in their old age. The other substantial group liable are landlords who though liable won't have to pay, their tenants will.
There's a feckin error in that reasoning all right.

dvpower

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Oh bring on the next elections:rolleyes:

What party will repeal this tax after the next election?

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

With the average household throwing away €1000 worth of food every year and about €120 billion in personal savings in the country I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

careful now DX, DV doesnt like us accusing people of not finishing their dinner :pac:

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

careful now DX, DV doesnt like us accusing people of not finishing their dinner :pac:

What the fcuk are you on (about)?

lugha

Hijpo wrote: »

part? how much of a part are we talking about? how much of the deficit can be clawed back through efficient cuts and how much are they planning to extort through taxes and charges?

First, not they, we. We live in a democracy. This fairytale notion of the government being like some greedy king taking from the commoners solely to enrich themselves is plainly daft. As is all references to silly terms like extortion.

To answer your question, I would certainly say much more in cuts than in tax hikes. Somebody earlier suggested a ratio of about 2:1, cuts: tax, which sounds about right.

bgrizzley

bgrizzley wrote: »

I wonder how much Pat left on his plate the day your man was arrested for talking to him

dvpower wrote: »

A new level of pettyness.

you sure its just yourself on your account all the time DV,:D

Bruthal

lugha wrote: »

This fairytale notion of the government being like some greedy king taking from the commoners solely to enrich themselves is plainly daft. .

Daft is it? Enrich themselves is exactly what they do, while the average person in this democracy you mention, is trying to live on less and less.

bgrizzley

lugha wrote: »

First, not they, we. We live in a democracy. This fairytale notion of the government being like some greedy king taking from the commoners solely to enrich themselves is plainly daft. As is all references to silly terms like extortion.

To answer your question, I would certainly say much more in cuts than in tax hikes. Somebody earlier suggested a ratio of about 2:1, cuts: tax, which sounds about right.

Democracy? Nice Lisbon anyone? Some of the best paid politicians in the world running a country into the ground. Yeah reads like a fairytale alright, brothers Grimm might have wrote it...

ncdadam

dvpower wrote: »

What party will repeal this tax after the next election?

FG, just before the next election and the troika are out of the way.

lugha

bgrizzley wrote: »

The majority of people liable for this tax are either working

If you see no difference between income tax and property tax then that begs the question as to why you are happy to pay one and not the other does it not?

bgrizzley wrote: »

….or perhaps elderly who have worked all their lives to pay for their house and deserve some rest in their old age.

They certainly do. And tax payers deserve not to be lumped with any new taxes. And those that were made redundant deserve not to be hit further with benefit cuts. And out children deserve not to have the education budget cut, and the certainly don’t deserve the economic legacy we are likely to leave them. Unfortunately, we do not have the option of sparing all those who don’t deserve this.

bgrizzley wrote: »

The other substantial group liable are landlords who though liable won't have to pay, their tenants will.

I don’t see the problem here?

bgrizzley wrote: »

Democracy? Nice Lisbon anyone?

I think you will find that both of those treaties were endorsed by the people. Had the government implemented them, without endorsement, that certainly would be undemocratic. And in any case, neither of these happens under the current government.

bgrizzley wrote: »

Some of the best paid politicians in the world running a country into the ground.

Do you have a credible alternative way of dealing with the crisis we are facing?

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And in other news Paddy Powers profits up 20% after increasing 50% last year. This should enable their top brass to continue paying themselves many multiples of what the Taoiseach gets. But they surely deserve it for parting people some of whom can't or won't pay €100 HHC from their cash in the pursuit of mostly futile aims. Paddy Power to run the country.
.

The 'Top Bass' of Paddy Power are actually running a profitable business.
The 'Taoiseach',(Enda Kenny) is running a bankrupt state.

You are bound to see how that statement looks more than a bit silly?

dvpower

ncdadam wrote: »

FG, just before the next election and the troika are out of the way.

That's an interesting prediction. In a peculiar way.

ncdadam

Here's an interesting suggestion from another thread.

Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting it here.


Quote.
Property tax should be set small and charged to everyone, renters, home owners, pensioners, council tenants etc etc. This idea of an exemption for low paid will be abused by the same sort of people you see coming out of the doctors surgery flashing their medical card at the counter and then climbing into their Mercs/BMW's to drive home.

€100 for houses valued under 100K
€150 for houses valued between 100K and 200K
€200 for houses valued at 200K to 300K
€300 for houses valued between 300K to 500K
€400 for all houses valued between 500K and 1 million
€500 for all houses over 1 million

None of those figures are enough to bankrupt anyone, just suck it up.

golden lane

a deficit is caused by government spending.......that is where the fix should start.....

bgrizzley

If you see no difference between income tax and property tax then that begs the question as to why you are happy to pay one and not the other does it not?

i dont see any difference, if i had paid it it would have been out of my income. ive said already, ive no problem paying more to get this country out of the **** they've got us in. i dont even care if its not fair on me, or that some people dont have to pay. the politicians can even give themselves waivers, i dont care.
But i wont pay a groundrent on the home ive already paid for. Put the tax on my head, not on my roof.

They certainly do. And tax payers deserve not to be lumped with any new taxes. And those that were made redundant deserve not to be hit further with benefit cuts. And out children deserve not to have the education budget cut, and the certainly don’t deserve the economic legacy we are likely to leave them.Unfortunately, we do not have the option of sparing all those who don’t deserve this.

Agreed.



I don’t see the problem here?

you guys are calling this a wealth /asset tax. why should those who are actually getting an income from this wealth(not notional)? A landlord who owns 400 properties will not have to pay one cent on 399 of those houses if he so choses, a choice not afforded the rest of us.

I think you will find that both of those treaties were endorsed by the people. Had the government implemented them, without endorsement, that certainly would be undemocratic.

second time around as you well know, thats not democracy. i didnt like the last GE results can i have another please? Thought not...


And in any case, neither of these happens under the current government.
As if they wouldnt have made us vote til we got it "right".:rolleyes:



Do you have a credible alternative way of dealing with the crisis we are facing?
Possibly, any chance of one of those paycap-less special advisor jobs?:pac:

Am Chile

ncdadam wrote: »

Here's an interesting suggestion from another thread.

Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting it here.


Quote.
Property tax should be set small and charged to everyone, renters, home owners, pensioners, council tenants etc etc. This idea of an exemption for low paid will be abused by the same sort of people you see coming out of the doctors surgery flashing their medical card at the counter and then climbing into their Mercs/BMW's to drive home.

€100 for houses valued under 100K
€150 for houses valued between 100K and 200K
€200 for houses valued at 200K to 300K
€300 for houses valued between 300K to 500K
€400 for all houses valued between 500K and 1 million
€500 for all houses over 1 million

None of those figures are enough to bankrupt anyone, just suck it up.

And in return what list of detailed local services are people supposed to receive before they even consider paying?