Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

steamengine

It has been mentioned a few times now that if property tax is paid from income then why not just raise income tax ?

The benefit from the governments perspective is that everyone will have to pay property tax irrespective of their income status. I think this is designed to apply pressure on immediate family to assist their son, daughters etc. to pay it. In some cases savings of better off family members will be dipped into to bail out the other family members - crafty indeed.

I see this operating the way rates did years ago, fail to pay it and the law will chase you, and that's how they apply the pressure. I think the whole thing is iniquitous and favours the wealthy. Wealth is not the average semi-D home which people are struggling to pay their mortgages on - they have already saved the government a fortune by opting out of social housing and this is the thanks they get. The silence is deafening from our so called socialist labour party on this one - useless shower - Labour's way or Franfurt's way. We know now.

Ghandee

steamengine wrote: »

It has been mentioned a few times now that if property tax is paid from income then why not just raise income tax ?

The benefit from the governments perspective is that everyone will have to pay property tax irrespective of their income status. I think this is designed to apply pressure on immediate family to assist their son, daughters etc. to pay it. In some cases savings of better off family members will be dipped into to bail out the other family members - crafty indeed.

I see this operating the way rates did years ago, fail to pay it and the law will chase you, and that's how they apply the pressure. I think the whole thing is iniquitous and favours the wealthy. Wealth is not the average semi-D home which people are struggling to pay their mortgages on - they have already saved the government a fortune by opting out of social housing and this is the thanks they get. The silence is deafening from our so called socialist labour party on this one - useless shower - Labour's way or Franfurt's way. We know now.

It wouldnt surprise me that if they succeed to implement this tax (which actually is looking less and less likely each day now) they would probably come along and increase Income tax too.

Once they have you towing the line ref a charge placed on you to live in you privately paid for home, they will then aise income tax anyway, (of which the majority of workers i.e PAYE could not control)

Watch this space.

dvpower

golden lane wrote: »

a deficit is caused by government spending.......that is where the fix should start.....

Government spending is down. As too are tax reciepts - massivly so.
The fix is in a mix of further spending cuts and some tax increases.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Government spending is down. As too are tax reciepts - massivly so.
The fix is in a mix of further spending cuts and some tax increases.

If you keep taxing the middle income families i.e. homeowners then you are effecting their spending power which will lead to more job losses. Shops and small businesses like bakeries, hairdressers, draperies etc will lay off staff or close.
There is noting being pumped into job creation at all.
More people working = more tax into Govt coffers. More spend.
Less people working = more being paid out on dole etc. Less spend.

There are shops closing in my nearest town weekly.

dxhound2005

Ghandee wrote: »

The 'Top Bass' of Paddy Power are actually running a profitable business.
The 'Taoiseach',(Enda Kenny) is running a bankrupt state.

You are bound to see how that statement looks more than a bit silly?

How about President Obama then? And I know he is running a bankrupt state as well. Evenso I think running Paddy Powers shouldn't entitle them to 4 or 5 times what Obama gets (back in 2009, they are probably getting more now).

http://www.businessandleadership.com/leadership/item/21694-paddy-power-chief-earns-1

I think that most of that money should be given back to the punters and the managers could live on €300,000 a year. The private sector need to give a better example when 775,000 people in the country are supposed to be on the verge of poverty and they are getting poor people to gamble money they can't afford.

Izzy Skint

golden lane wrote: »

a deficit is caused by government spending.......that is where the fix should start.....

Golden, very well put, nice and simple, the pro taxers have no answer to this, they will reply with "it's a revenue raising problem" !!!....can you believe how f-ing stupid that logic is !....does not surprise me in the least.

ncdadam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How about President Obama then? And I know he is running a bankrupt state as well. Evenso I think running Paddy Powers shouldn't entitle them to 4 or 5 times what Obama gets (back in 2009, they are probably getting more now).

http://www.businessandleadership.com/leadership/item/21694-paddy-power-chief-earns-1

I think that most of that money should be given back to the punters and the managers could live on €300,000 a year. The private sector need to give a better example when 775,000 people in the country are supposed to be on the verge of poverty and they are getting poor people to gamble money they can't afford.

The guy running IBRC (anglo), a bank that's cost us €35 billion or so is getting €866,000 per year with enda's blessing!

The rest of the banks that we are keeping on like support are all on well over the €500,000 cap.

Now that's how to run a country!

View

steamengine wrote: »

It has been mentioned a few times now that if property tax is paid from income then why not just raise income tax ?

Because it is perfectly possible to have a low income and a high value property and vice versa.

The only point of measuring the value of a property btw is to introduce some measure of equity into what is a fairly straightforward calculation, namely:

A) Cost of services provided by your local authority / number of households in the local authority area.

That though results in a "flat tax" charge.

To make it "fairer" a multiplier is ususally calculated to take into account how the value of your house measure up wrt the median house value in your area, namely:

Value of your house / median house value in the local authority area.

Multiply the "house value" figure you get from B with the figure your got from A and you have a "fairer" property tax system.

That is the basic system used elsewhere and presumable we are going to end up with some variation on that theme.

ncdadam

View wrote: »

Because it is perfectly possible to have a low income and a high value property and vice versa.

The only point of measuring the value of a property btw is to introduce some measure of equity into what is a fairly straightforward calculation, namely:

A) Cost of services provided by your local authority / number of households in the local authority area.

That though results in a "flat tax" charge.

To make it "fairer" a multiplier is ususally calculated to take into account how the value of your house measure up wrt the median house value in your area, namely:

Value of your house / median house value in the local authority area.

Multiply the "house value" figure you get from B with the figure your got from A and you have a "fairer" property tax system.

That is the basic system used elsewhere and presumable we are going to end up with some variation on that theme.

This isn't 'elsewhere' though.

This is Ireland.

'Elsewhere' will be getting a whole load of services for their money that we'll have to pay for on top of a property tax.

View

golden lane wrote: »

a deficit is caused by government spending.......that is where the fix should start.....

Local authority spending is already down and going down further. The HHC is there to alleviate some of the effects of that.

So, you can have either the full effects of those cuts or a reduced effect - the choice is yours but take a guess about the effect on local roads maintenance in the "full effect" case?

To put some figures on that. Galway County spends 5 million a year on local roads maintenance (over the second biggest county in the State by area), how much can that be cut before those local roads start bordering on the impassable?

Hijpo

what does the salary of a private company who i have a choice wether or not to supply with money got to do with someone who does a ****e job for wages that are paid with deductions from my wages?

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

How about President Obama then? And I know he is running a bankrupt state as well. Evenso I think running Paddy Powers shouldn't entitle them to 4 or 5 times what Obama gets (back in 2009, they are probably getting more now).

http://www.businessandleadership.com/leadership/item/21694-paddy-power-chief-earns-1

I think that most of that money should be given back to the punters and the managers could live on €300,000 a year. The private sector need to give a better example when 775,000 people in the country are supposed to be on the verge of poverty and they are getting poor people to gamble money they can't afford.

Once again I'm going to ask you to make a comment on the lies you've been telling throughout various threads on this website.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440149&postcount=52

Please respond.

View

ncdadam wrote: »

This isn't 'elsewhere' though.

This is Ireland.

'Elsewhere' will be getting a whole load of services for their money that we'll have to pay for on top of a property tax.

"Elsewhere" is paying between 10 and 30 times the HHC in property related taxes, so understandably they get more services.

But, you aren't prepared to pay for such levels of services, are you?

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You're in Donegal. It seems that there is some money to spare in the county. Donegal jerseys sold out and thousands waiting for new supplies at about €50 each.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/green-and-gold-in-demand-as-donegal-jerseys-sell-out-205607.html

I was at the five away games Donegal have played in the championship including two in Dublin. Probably about 100,000 Donegal fans and it wouldn't be a cheap trip with a day or two in Dublin or even to Clones. And probably 80,000 will be willing to fork out €80 for a ticket next month. I don't think the HHC or a property tax will tip thousands of home owners into poverty on that evidence. The Donegal people I saw didn't strike me as if they came for some rich elite, just ordinary folk.

And in other news Paddy Powers profits up 20% after increasing 50% last year. This should enable their top brass to continue paying themselves many multiples of what the Taoiseach gets. But they surely deserve it for parting people some of whom can't or won't pay €100 HHC from their cash in the pursuit of mostly futile aims. Paddy Power to run the country.

http://businessandleadership.com/business/item/36872-paddy-powers-pre-tax/

With the average household throwing away €1000 worth of food every year and about €120 billion in personal savings in the country I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

Can I just refer you to posts 6904 and 6908, which, incidently, where posted by a more senior member of you're debating team, where he says that journalists are prone to speculate, or words to that effect.

steamengine

steamengine wrote: »

It has been mentioned a few times now that if property tax is paid from income then why not just raise income tax ?

The benefit from the governments perspective is that everyone will have to pay property tax irrespective of their income status. I think this is designed to apply pressure on immediate family to assist their son, daughters etc. to pay it. In some cases savings of better off family members will be dipped into to bail out the other family members - crafty indeed.

I see this operating the way rates did years ago, fail to pay it and the law will chase you, and that's how they apply the pressure. I think the whole thing is iniquitous and favours the wealthy. Wealth is not the average semi-D home which people are struggling to pay their mortgages on - they have already saved the government a fortune by opting out of social housing and this is the thanks they get. The silence is deafening from our so called socialist labour party on this one - useless shower - Labour's way or Franfurt's way. We know now.

View wrote: »

Because it is perfectly possible to have a low income and a high value property and vice versa.

The only point of measuring the value of a property btw is to introduce some measure of equity into what is a fairly straightforward calculation, namely:

A) Cost of services provided by your local authority / number of households in the local authority area.

That though results in a "flat tax" charge.

To make it "fairer" a multiplier is ususally calculated to take into account how the value of your house measure up wrt the median house value in your area, namely:

Value of your house / median house value in the local authority area.

Multiply the "house value" figure you get from B with the figure your got from A and you have a "fairer" property tax system.

That is the basic system used elsewhere and presumable we are going to end up with some variation on that theme.

Just to explain a little more clearly what I was getting at. The mooted property tax could be substituted by income tax but the government would not be able to raise any return from people on tax exempt incomes including social welfare. It suits them better to implement a property tax because the onus is now shifted on to the householder who in present circumstances may not have an income at all, or is deeply in debt due to a high mortgage.

How can any rate 'flat' or otherwise be deemed fair for people in these circumstances ??? My understanding is that there are no exemptions due to low income ?

Ghandee

View wrote: »

"Elsewhere" is paying between 10 and 30 times the HHC in property related taxes, so understandably they get more services.

But, you aren't prepared to pay for such levels of services, are you?

Forget the hhc, it was a charge to register for the upcoming property tax.
All speculation so far, but suggestions have been made, rumors plentiful, it could range from 500-1000.

But yet we'll still be asked to pay for a variety of services separately.

I don't think theirs anyone on the 'no' side that have objected paying for a domestic rates style service as exists in the north .

The govt have ruled out though, improvements to existing services, extra services (for refuse collections etc)

This is money for nothing. You surprised the country don't want to pay?

C'mon.......:cool:

Izzy Skint

View wrote: »

"Elsewhere" is paying between 10 and 30 times the HHC in property related taxes, so understandably they get more services.

But, you aren't prepared to pay for such levels of services, are you?

....because it's not for local services, it will not improve local services, it is being raised just to subsidise the govt. cuts to councils who provide f-all services anyway....they want us to pay extra for the same sh!te wasteful services.....
you pro taxers are unbelievable, the economy is on its knees, people are suffering , loosing their homes.....and all you can say is "you aren't prepared to pay for such levels of services, are you? "...f-ing muppets !

Am Chile

View wrote: »

"Elsewhere" is paying between 10 and 30 times the HHC in property related taxes, so understandably they get more services.

But, you aren't prepared to pay for such levels of services, are you?

I posted about local services, and being asked to pay different multiple charges separately last night, a lot of people would have the same view as my post.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80490249&postcount=6874

tayto lover

View wrote: »

"Elsewhere" is paying between 10 and 30 times the HHC in property related taxes, so understandably they get more services.

But, you aren't prepared to pay for such levels of services, are you?

Have you a link to prove your "10 and 30 times the HHC" ?

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

Have you a link to prove your "10 and 30 times the HHC" ?

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/property-and-housing/rates/your-rate-bill/domestic-rate-poundages-2012-to-2013.htm

For Northern Ireland Newry district house valued £175,000 it is about £1232. I have a friend living in a nice big house in the countryside in that council district who pays over £2100. Of course the few time I posted that I was called a liar but all you need is a calculator to see it is eminently possible.

And I don't need a big long list again of stuff people get in the North for their money. And it is a property tax it says so on the website. And Sinn Fein are sharing power in the North and their court service is prosecuting people who don't pay, 47,000 in the last year.

I pay €280 for bins and €100 HHC and I think I get the better end of the bargain for the time being.

darkhorse

dxhound2005 wrote: »

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/property-and-housing/rates/your-rate-bill/domestic-rate-poundages-2012-to-2013.htm

For Northern Ireland Newry district house valued £175,000 it is about £1232. I have a friend living in a nice big house in the countryside in that council district who pays over £2100. Of course the few time I posted that I was called a liar but all you need is a calculator to see it is eminently possible.

And I don't need a big long list again of stuff people get in the North for their money. And it is a property tax it says so on the website. And Sinn Fein are sharing power in the North and their court service is prosecuting people who don't pay, 47,000 in the last year.

I pay €280 for bins and €100 HHC and I think I get the better end of the bargain for the time being.

Are these taxes not set by westminster.

Assassins Creed

The bottom line is the government need to bring in more revenue and what better way than to bring in another tax. Label it whatever they want and justify it for whatever service they want. There will always be those that think they are getting value for money. How anyone can justify this is beyond me with all thats gone on with the various governments down through the years.

We opened the flood gates to imigrants and pay them social welfare.
Our hospitals and health care system is at crisis point.
We bail out banks and the government lets them screw us back by raising interest rates.
And i could go on and on, but one thing is for sure all other taxes and rates are going to increase.

They should label all taxes and rates for what they are, little mans working tax. Because by the time their finished with exemptions for those they deem should not pay, which they will for services, it will be like all other rates and taxes, a working mans tax. As for the rich and high earners, ooooh better not hit them too hard. Hit the worker bees at source, they cant do anything about it.

lugha

bgrizzley wrote: »

i dont see any difference

So there’s no difference between income tax and property tax. But you’ll reluctantly (presumably?) pay the former but resolutely refuse to pay the latter?

Once again, the reasoning on the no side is a tad confused.

bgrizzley wrote: »

But i wont pay a groundrent on the home ive already paid for.

Put the tax on my head, not on my roof.

This is simply regurgitated emotive bluster with a couple of sounds bites like ground rent thrown in. What it isn’t of course is an argument as to why there is something inherently wrong with a property tax. After close to 20,000 posts I cannot recall anyone making an intelligent, as opposed to emotional, argument against the notion that a home might be taxed. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that no such argument is being made because no such argument exists.

We’re not used to this kind of thing, so it must be wrong is the implied argument. I remember a very similar reaction from some to both the smoking ban and the NCT, and we know how quickly those measures were accepted as normal.

bgrizzley wrote: »

you guys are calling this a wealth /asset tax. why should those who are actually getting an income from this wealth(not notional)? A landlord who owns 400 properties will not have to pay one cent on 399 of those houses if he so choses, a choice not afforded the rest of us.

The tenants will pay, if the landlord succeeds in passing the cost on. So if the exchequer gets the benefit, why are you so fixated on who actually pays? And of course the landlord will pay a tidy sum in other tax from his other 399 properties anyway.

bgrizzley wrote: »

second time around as you well know, thats not democracy.

Yes it is. You might make some arguments as to what it was or was not, but non-democratic it most certainly was not. Neither referendum would be or could be carried until a majority of those that voted were in favour, which of course is what happened. And that is democracy. But like the nonsense that implementing the law constitutes bullying that has been peddled in this debate the non-democratic nonsense was peddled in that one.

bgrizzley wrote: »

Possibly, any chance of one of those paycap-less special advisor jobs?

Well if memory serves me, the cap was broken (!) by about €15,000 for the guy that much of out fuss is about. Alas our deficit is pretty much one million times bigger than this so I’m afraid you’ll need to think harder!

Joke solutions are fine for you to amuse us with. Unfortunately, the government has to come up with more useful ones.

Le_Dieux

dvpower wrote: »

What party will repeal this tax after the next election?

I really have no idea, but , for me, as long as it isn't FG or Lab/

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/property-and-housing/rates/your-rate-bill/domestic-rate-poundages-2012-to-2013.htm

For Northern Ireland Newry district house valued £175,000 it is about £1232. I have a friend living in a nice big house in the countryside in that council district who pays over £2100. Of course the few time I posted that I was called a liar but all you need is a calculator to see it is eminently possible.

And I don't need a big long list again of stuff people get in the North for their money. And it is a property tax it says so on the website. And Sinn Fein are sharing power in the North and their court service is prosecuting people who don't pay, 47,000 in the last year.

I pay €280 for bins and €100 HHC and I think I get the better end of the bargain for the time being.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440149&postcount=52

You must be a very lucky person?
Someone who never has to visit a GP, never has to pay for a prescription, doesn't have kids to educate, provide their bus fare each morning, and feed them at school (all of which is covered in rates-anyone with 2-3 kids will easily spend the equivalent of your 'friend' inn Newry on education alone, per year)
We've among the highest rates of motor tax in Europe, yet we've tolled roads placed on top of that, not to mention paying over 60c a litre in tax per euro spent at the pumps.
If you were unlucky enough to call out the emergency services you'd get billed €500 per callout.
We'll still be paying for the disposal for large goods removal (washing machines etc) which the county councils remove for free via rates.
May I also remind you of our imminent water metering?

You've finally got around to acknowledging a coalition is currently in govt in the north, you've yet to acknowledge they have zero, absolutely zero powers to set their levels of taxation though, as this gets controlled by westminster.

I know this doesn't suit your agenda of ridiculing any thing in opposition to your ideal govt (especially your anti SF in particular agenda, which is evident via your posting history in a range of other threads and topics)

Given our higher rates of vat, and your location being in such close proximity to the border, I am very curious if your govt loyalty shines through when you decide to purchase certain items that may be cheaper in 'Northern Ireland'?


Your constant lies and downright snide attitude is even evident by the lack of support you receive from even members of your own debating team.

That is all.

Glenalla

dxhound2005 wrote: »

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/property-and-housing/rates/your-rate-bill/domestic-rate-poundages-2012-to-2013.htm

For Northern Ireland Newry district house valued £175,000 it is about £1232. I have a friend living in a nice big house in the countryside in that council district who pays over £2100. Of course the few time I posted that I was called a liar but all you need is a calculator to see it is eminently possible.

And I don't need a big long list again of stuff people get in the North for their money. And it is a property tax it says so on the website. And Sinn Fein are sharing power in the North and their court service is prosecuting people who don't pay, 47,000 in the last year.

I pay €280 for bins and €100 HHC and I think I get the better end of the bargain for the time being.

I own a house in Rostrevor, an area considered very nice and desirable to live in so attracts higher rates, the house is valued at somewhere between 120,000 and 180,000 and the ACTUAL rates I pay are 560.00 per annum. I believe it good value for what I receive (not going into the list but quite alot) and the database is not just a way to apply more taxes to the property which is most likely what will happen here and what people are afraid of. I believe if there was a fair and transparent tax here with a cap on it and not simply used to gather information to tax people more indirectly there would be little opposition.
The bottom line here is this government have broken election promises and now have lost the trust of many.

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

This is simply regurgitated emotive bluster with a couple of sounds bites like ground rent thrown in. What it isn’t of course is an argument as to why there is something inherently wrong with a property tax. After close to 20,000 posts I cannot recall anyone making an intelligent, as opposed to emotional, argument against the notion that a home might be taxed. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that no such argument is being made because no such argument exists.

Here's a solid reason from your party leader.

"It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny, 1994

Would you like a more 'recent' reason?

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

Here's a solid reason from your party leader.

Don’t have a party, so something else you are wrong about. But I am curious as to why it is exclusively the “won’t pay” gang who have this propensity for conspiracy theories? Hey, maybe we should tax tin foil hats? :P

Ghandee wrote: »

It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" "It is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home" - Enda Kenny, 1994

Well I might point out what some of the “political” views of the sinners were in 1994. But I did this before and the point (basically, that opinions change) seemingly sailed right over your head.

But in any case, Enda doesn’t offer reasons why it is morally wrong or unjust or unfair so I’m afraid that goes down as emotive bluster as well.

Once again, why do you think (as opposed to feel) it is moral to tax your livelihood but immoral to tax your home?

Valetta

Ghandee wrote: »

You've finally got around to acknowledging a coalition is currently in govt in the north, you've yet to acknowledge they have zero, absolutely zero powers to set their levels of taxation though, as this gets controlled by westminster.



That is all.

Belfast City Council set the level of rates themselves, not Westminster.

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/rates/districtrates.asp

Ghandee

lugha wrote: »

Don’t have a party, so something else you are wrong about. But I am curious as to why it is exclusively the “won’t pay” gang who have this propensity for conspiracy theories? Hey, maybe we should tax tin foil hats? :P

Well I might point out what some of the “political” views of the sinners were in 1994. But I did this before and the point (basically, that opinions change) seemingly sailed right over your head.

But in any case, Enda doesn’t offer reasons why it is morally wrong or unjust or unfair so I’m afraid that goes down as emotive bluster as well.

Once again, why do you think (as opposed to feel) it is moral to tax your livelihood but immoral to tax your home?

A property tax would further depress the housing market and would plunge Ireland even deeper into recession.