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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #7202
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Covered bonds are a type of secured bond.

    So who took those bonds out in the first place, Anglo?


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    #7203
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    ncdadam wrote: »
    So who took those bonds out in the first place, Anglo?

    Yes


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    #7204
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Yes

    Exactly.

    So when Anglo became a zombie bank (which was before they covered these bonds) all bets should have been off.


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    #7205
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Yes

    That's the problem, a shower of crooks took these bonds out and the Irish people are paying them back.
    There has been no sanction against the likes of fitzpatrick and drumm, yet people in wheelchairs have to sit out all night in Dublin to try and stop cuts to their carers allowance.
    This country is a shambles and not only is it financially bankrupt, it's also morally bankrupt.
    I won't be paying a HHC or a property tax in order to continue this charade.

    End of story.


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    #7206
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Exactly.

    So when Anglo became a zombie bank (which was before they covered these bonds) all bets should have been off.
    Even small depositors?


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    #7207
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Exactly.

    So when Anglo became a zombie bank (which was before they covered these bonds) all bets should have been off.

    But if a bond is secured against something, it gets paid back either way. You either repay with the cash or the assets it was borrowed against.


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    #7208
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    But if a bond is secured against something, it gets paid back either way. You either repay with the cash or the assets it was borrowed against.

    And if Anglo had of been allowed to fail (as the laws of capitalism would have dictated) More with what cash/assets would the bondholder payment have been funded by?


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    #7209
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    But if a bond is secured against something, it gets paid back either way. You either repay with the cash or the assets it was borrowed against.
    But aren't all bond investors inherently evil people, exclusively German aristocratic billionares who deserve to be shafted?


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    #7210
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    dvpower wrote: »
    Even small depositors?

    Tough, market forces and all that.
    People took risks buying shares in Irish banks and depositors in anglo should have known better.


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    #7211
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ncdadam wrote: »
    Tough, market forces and all that.
    People took risks buying shares in Irish banks and depositors in anglo should have known better.
    So ordinary depositors in the Irish bailed out banks should have known better and should have lost their savings and wages?

    By the way, shareholders have lost pretty much everything.


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    #7212
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    Bondholders are supposed to gamble, sometimes they win sometimes they lose.
    Lenihan, being fooled as he was, skewed the capitalist system in favour of speculators.
    That's his legacy!


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    #7213
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Ghandee wrote: »
    And if Anglo had of been allowed to fail (as the laws of capitalism would have dictated) More with what cash/assets would the bondholder payment have been funded by?

    If Anglo had been let fail it would have been repaid anyway with the assets it was secured on.


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    #7214
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    So ordinary depositors in the Irish bailed out banks should have known better and should have lost their savings and wages?

    By the way, shareholders have lost pretty much everything.

    Sean quinn.......


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    #7215
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    dvpower wrote: »
    So ordinary depositors in the Irish bailed out banks should have known better and should have lost their savings and wages?

    By the way, shareholders have lost pretty much everything.

    What's an 'ordinary' depositor in your mind?


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    #7216
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Sean quinn.......

    Your going to be told that quinn is a bankrupt and has no money next...


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    #7217
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    ncdadam wrote: »
    What's an 'ordinary' depositor in your mind?

    Someone who doesn't have the word 'defaulter' on their foreheads.


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    #7218
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ncdadam wrote: »
    What's an 'ordinary' depositor in your mind?
    A person who has their ordinary savings in a bank.
    Maybe a pensioner who has their nest egg saved in a bank account.
    Someone whose salary is paid into a bank account.

    Why?


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    #7219
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    If Anglo had been let fail it would have been repaid anyway with the assets it was secured on.

    Would they have been state assets though?


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    #7220
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    dvpower wrote: »
    A person who has their ordinary savings in a bank.
    Maybe a pensioner who has their nest egg saved in a bank account.
    Someone whose salary is paid into a bank account.

    Why?

    Do you reckon there were many 'ordinary' depositors in Anglo?

    The €600 million bond paid earlier this week was anglo's.


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    #7221
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Sean quinn.......
    He lost even more than an ordinairy shareholder since he gambled on CFDs.
    What's the point of introducing him?


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    #7222
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ncdadam wrote: »
    Do you reckon there were many 'ordinary' depositors in Anglo?
    Yep. Heaps and heaps of them.


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    #7223
    ncdadam
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 598 ✭✭✭ncdadam


    dvpower wrote: »
    Yep. Heaps and heaps of them.

    Show me a source for that.

    Depositors now, not shareholders.

    By the way, If you think Sean Quinn has 'lost it all' your wrong.


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    #7224
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Ghandee wrote: »
    If you took an unsecured loan out from AIB.
    One year later and you couldn't pay back loan, because your employer went bust, AIB come knocking looking to seize your house against value of the loan.

    Would you hand it over?

    what i would do is irrelevent.........ireland needs to borrow money....that is the facts.......

    i would dread the consequences of not being able to borrow.......


    but i am not in favour of a property tax..............


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    #7225
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Would they have been state assets though?

    No. The loans are secured on assets that would have originally been owned by Anglo. They are of course now owned by the state, indirectly, via IBRC.

    When these bonds were sold, they were covered by something owned by Anglo, most likely a portion of their commercial loan book. When the bond is due for repayment, you either pay the amount due or else default and surrender that part of your loan book the bond was secured on.


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    #7226
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    He lost even more than an ordinairy shareholder since he gambled on CFDs.
    What's the point of introducing him?

    Well, he was a shareholder and all.....
    Anglo-Irish Bank investment

    A large part of the subsequent loss can be linked to the well-publicised near collapse of the Anglo Irish Bank, which wiped out at least €2.8 billion of the family's wealth. Between October 2005 and July 2007 Sean Quinn built up a 28% stake in the bank, mainly through contracts for difference, a financial instrument used to gamble on the bank share price. [15] Quinn admitted at the time in an RTÉ Prime Time interview that it had "set the company back 2 to 3 years".

    In 2008 the shares or contracts for difference bought in Anglo Irish Bank dropped in value and the bank had to find a buyer for Quinn's shares. A group of clients known as the "Golden Circle" bought the shares, and, controversially (and illegally), the bank lent them €451 million to buy them. The €451 million was never repaid as the Anglo Irish Bank hidden loans controversy emerged, following which the bank was nationalised in 2009.


  • Options
    #7227
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Well, he was a shareholder and all.....
    ... a shareholding he lost.


  • Options
    #7228
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ncdadam wrote: »
    Show me a source for that.

    Depositors now, not shareholders.
    AIB took the deposit book from Anglo. 120,000 accounts, worth €9bn - average of €75k
    ncdadam wrote: »
    By the way, If you think Sean Quinn has 'lost it all' your wrong.
    Where did you get the idea that I thought that?


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    #7229
    Bishop_Donal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭Bishop_Donal


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Where were ya Bishop ?

    I went off to the sun for a few weeks to build up my energy for the discussion as we build up for the budget!

    Good to see you're still at it! I'm looking forward to our forthcoming exchanges!! That's the nice comments out of the way!


  • Options
    #7230
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    No. The loans are secured on assets that would have originally been owned by Anglo. They are of course now owned by the state, indirectly, via IBRC.

    When these bonds were sold, they were covered by something owned by Anglo, most likely a portion of their commercial loan book. When the bond is due for repayment, you either pay the amount due or else default and surrender that part of your loan book the bond was secured on.

    Which is where they essentially became 'unsecured' and should've been defaulted on, not a further burden to us tax payers (seeing as how they weren't our debts)

    FG in fairness said.
    “Anglo Irish Bank is not getting another cent of our money and any bank coming to us looking for more money is going to have to show how they’re going to impose losses on their junior bondholders, on their senior bondholders and their other creditors before they come looking to us for anymore money. Not another cent.”
    In opposition.

    Didn't happen though.


    http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-well-pay-our-dues-a-year-after-varadkar-said-not-another-cent-350805-Feb2012/


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    #7231
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    ... a shareholding he lost.

    No doubt he's surviving on koka noodles a-la lidl these days?


This discussion has been closed.
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