Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Am Chile

I don,t think anyone has posted these comments by two different representatives of two different opposition parties stating a property tax can be withdrawn from the memorandum of understanding and the bailout renegotiated as long as the fiscal targets get met.

Mr Doherty said that the Troika made it clear to his party that aspects of the bailout could be renegotiated as long as revenue targets were met.

http://blogs.myhome.ie/2012/08/27/noonan-insists-no-decision-has-been-made-over-property-tax/

In any event, the troika has repeatedly made it clear that one fiscal measure can replace another of equal value. Their main concern is the achievement of the overall targets.

It is open to the Government to negotiate with the troika the withdrawal of the property tax from the memorandum of understanding. At no stage has any minister said that the Government intends to do this. If the Government proceeds with the introduction of a property tax in 2013, it is because it has chosen to do so.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/the-money-isnt-there-to-bring-in-a-property-tax-206962.html

Ghandee

Once again I see the master minds behind the cunning plan have gotten their priorities right when allocating what exactly the cash collected do far gets allocated to.

€7m from household levy used to fund agency By Juno McEnroe, Political Reporter Monday, September 10, 2012 More than €7m in household charges paid by property owners is being used to finance the agency collecting the levy, despite communities facing cuts to essential services and the closure of local facilities. It has been confirmed that the millions of euro — equating to charges paid on 72,000 properties — are being deducted from charges to pay for staff, the household charge database, and administration costs.

The money needed to run the Local Government Management Agency (LGMA) has increased and the bill "expanded" since it was set up this year, the agency told the Irish Examiner. However, the mounting bills for the agency come as local authorities are being forced to pull millions in community, arts, and sports grants, as well as close facilities such as parks and libraries due to cuts in government funding.

Galway County Council has written to recipients of support and household gra-nts for those with disabilities telling them this year’s payments are being suspended. Cork County Council plans to defer spending €250,000 on community grants. Roscommon is suspending some services, including some for older people, while recycling sites will be closed and mobile libraries will no longer operate.

LGMA chief executive Paul McSweeney confirmed costs had escalated, but said the money deducted from the household charge would go towards establishing a database of property owners for the Revenue Commissioners, who take over the collection next year.

"The intention was to keep administrative costs to a minimum and that was the instruction. As time went on, it became apparent that if you want to advertise, it ain’t free and you have to spend money. You have to build an application [the database] and that’s going to cost money too."

It has cost €4m to run the agency since it begin operating last year, but a budget of €7.2m has been set aside for it to complete its work.

"We’d have a planned budget of maybe up to €6m for this. We haven’t spent anything like that yet. We had a planning figure, but it expanded as requirements did. The agency is completely self financing.

"It costs you money to collect money. We had to build this business and it had to be funded in some way... the bulk of it [the costs] is manpower."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/7m-from-household-levy-used-to-fund-agency-206993.html


So, they'll cut local services and amenities while they pay themselves 'the bulk' of seven million they've taken from revenue raised so far?

Further proof registering and paying is only to keep certain people in the powers that be living their high life!

Don't be fooled! Don't register, don't pay!

lugha

Am Chile wrote: »

I don,t think anyone has posted these comments by two different representatives of two different opposition parties stating a property tax can be withdrawn from the memorandum of understanding and the bailout renegotiated as long as the fiscal targets get met.

Most people accept that there will have to be some new taxes to deal with our problem. And if we are to have new taxes, surely we should opt for the better, or least worse one?

If the government could devise an alternative tax that has the merits that a property tax has no doubt the Troika would accept it. But there is a reason why virtually every country in the world has some form of property tax.

veryangryman

lugha wrote: »

Am Chile wrote: »

I don,t think anyone has posted these comments by two different representatives of two different opposition parties stating a property tax can be withdrawn from the memorandum of understanding and the bailout renegotiated as long as the fiscal targets get met.

Most people accept that there will have to be some new taxes to deal with our problem. And if we are to have new taxes, surely we should opt for the better, or least worse one?
If the government could devise an alternative tax that has the merits that a property tax has no doubt the Troika would accept it. But there is a reason why virtually every country in the world has some form of property tax.

Opt? No they will give us that and more axe more taxes. Feel free to list a tax that they won't be charging us

dvpower

lugha wrote: »

Most people accept that there will have to be some new taxes to deal with our problem. And if we are to have new taxes, surely we should opt for the better, or least worse one?

If the government could devise an alternative tax that has the merits that a property tax has no doubt the Troika would accept it. But there is a reason why virtually every country in the world has some form of property tax.

The IMF also make it clear (as recently as yesterday) that any alternative proposal would need some of the attributes of a property tax e.g. broadens the tax base, predictable income stream etc.
Simply raising the same amount of money elsewhere would not be enough, despite what some of the less informed often say around here.

ncdadam

lugha wrote: »

Most people accept that there will have to be some new taxes to deal with our problem. And if we are to have new taxes, surely we should opt for the better, or least worse one?

If the government could devise an alternative tax that has the merits that a property tax has no doubt the Troika would accept it. But there is a reason why virtually every country in the world has some form of property tax.

Why not then have a local authority funding tax?
A tax that every citizen has to pay, be they employed or unemployed, property owners or renters.
It would give every citizen a stake in the country and probably raise a fair bit more than a tax that is only levied on people who put their own roof over their heads.
The proposed property tax, based on values, means Dublin people will once again be paying more than the rest and developers (and NAMA) can sit on land banks until they increase in value and not pay a site tax on them.
Seems to me that labour don't want to take anything off the 'poor unemployed' (that's a joke!) and FG don't want to take anything off the wealthier in the country.
It's looking like its getting close to the time for me to uproot my family and to emigrate.
Shame on FG and shame on Labour (the new greens).

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Once again I see the master minds behind the cunning plan have gotten their priorities right when allocating what exactly the cash collected do far gets allocated to.




http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/7m-from-household-levy-used-to-fund-agency-206993.html


So, they'll cut local services and amenities while they pay themselves 'the bulk' of seven million they've taken from revenue raised so far?

Further proof registering and paying is only to keep certain people in the powers that be living their high life!

Don't be fooled! Don't register, don't pay!

They way I read that was they thought the admin side of introducing this would be minimal as people would register, however, they now have to waste money chasing the people that didnt pay so require the €7m to do this.

In a way its the people that didnt pay that have ensured the wastage of this €7m, oh and someone that hasnt paid cant really complain about cuts in services. If those with disabilities have thier grants cuts well they only have to look to those that havent paid the charge.

Uriel.

Ghandee wrote: »

Once again I see the master minds behind the cunning plan have gotten their priorities right when allocating what exactly the cash collected do far gets allocated to.




http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/7m-from-household-levy-used-to-fund-agency-206993.html


So, they'll cut local services and amenities while they pay themselves 'the bulk' of seven million they've taken from revenue raised so far?

Further proof registering and paying is only to keep certain people in the powers that be living their high life!

Don't be fooled! Don't register, don't pay!

The highest costs of administering any new system will always be realised in its infant years.

Long-term operating costs should fall drastically.

of course it should also be remembered that the cost of trying to collect tax is likely to be a good chunk of that €7m. If they didn't have to sending out reminder letters and chasing people to pay, then you would realise substantial savings.

ncdadam

donalg1 wrote: »

If those with disabilities have thier grants cuts well they only have to look to those that havent paid the charge.

Or they could look at the wastage of funds on vanity projects and salary's as large as some country's prime ministers they pay their county managers.
But sure the ill's of the country are all down to people who won't pay their HHC.
LMAO!

Mach Lei

More then four months past the march 31st deadline and still no warning letter sent to me in the post, has anyone here received any of these warning letters they say is on the way.

dvpower

ncdadam wrote: »

Or they could look at the wastage of funds on vanity projects and salary's as large as some country's prime ministers they pay their county managers.
But sure the ill's of the country are all down to people who won't pay their HHC.
LMAO!

Or they could look at both inflated salaries and tax evaders.

dvpower

Mach Lei wrote: »

More then four months past the march 31st deadline and still no warning letter sent to me in the post, has anyone here received any of these warning letters they say is on the way.

They only sent them to second property owners.

ncdadam

Mach Lei wrote: »

More then four months past the march 31st deadline and still no warning letter sent to me in the post, has anyone here received any of these warning letters they say is on the way.

The HHC will be quietly be dropped and forgotten about once the real property tax is brought in.
It won't be worth chasing people for the few quid outstanding, you can see the way the LA's waste money already and that's before they take any legal action.
An unmitigated disaster from start to finish, much like the 'government' that were elected recently.

Le_Dieux

dvpower wrote: »

They only sent them to second property owners.[/QUOTE

But why only 2nd property owners? I also haven't paid, nor have I reeeived any letter.]

Le_Dieux

donalg1 wrote: »

They way I read that was they thought the admin side of introducing this would be minimal as people would register, however, they now have to waste money chasing the people that didnt pay so require the €7m to do this.

In a way its the people that didnt pay that have ensured the wastage of this €7m, oh and someone that hasnt paid cant really complain about cuts in services. If those with disabilities have thier grants cuts well they only have to look to those that havent paid the charge.

I wish to say something here. I am one of those who haven't paid, nor will I....eventually they will have to lock me up which will cost MONEY.

As for cuts in service - have really no idea where You are coming from here. I am in the Kildare CC jurisdiction, and I get practically NO service from KCC in our estate - bar the street lighting. We pay for our refuse collection, we pay to cut our grass.

Ghandee

They're at it again.

The IMF once again are looking towards those at the bottom, while those at the top are left to fatten up. (county managers on more than some prime ministers ffs)

If you're a minimum wage worker, your earnings are in the line of fire next.

IMF targets minimum wage for employment-driven recovery By Juno McEnroe, Political Reporter Tuesday, September 11, 2012 A cut to the minimum wage to reduce labour costs has been recommended by the IMF in its latest review on Ireland’s recovery. The IMF report also suggests that the use of the private sector to train or help upskill unemployed people could play a useful role if well designed.

The IMF notes that rents have fallen and that Ireland’s national minimum wage (NMW) is higher than in the North and in Britain.

An IMF statement said: "A reduction in the NMW should be considered given the broad fall in consumer prices, including rents, in recent years, and because it is notably above the minimum wage in Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom despite the highly integrated labour market."

However, with dole payments coming to the equivalent of 62% of the minimum wage for someone working a 35-hour work, the IMF said there were "limits to reductions given the need to ensure the NMW provides adequate incentives to take up employment".

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/imf-targets-minimum-wage-for-employment-driven-recovery-207136.html

I can see blood about to erupt on our streets.

I hope I'm wrong though.

mikom

An IMF statement said: "A reduction in the NMW should be considered given the broad fall in consumer prices, including rents, in recent years, and because it is notably above the minimum wage in Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom despite the highly integrated labour market."

In other news Gas and Electricity prices set to rise alongside petrol, diesel, and home heating oil.

dxhound2005

ncdadam wrote: »

The HHC will be quietly be dropped and forgotten about once the real property tax is brought in.
It won't be worth chasing people for the few quid outstanding, you can see the way the LA's waste money already and that's before they take any legal action.
An unmitigated disaster from start to finish, much like the 'government' that were elected recently.

It can't be quietly dropped. As long as it is on the statute books it's provisions apply as any solicitor will tell you if you are selling, buying, bequeathing or inheriting a house. And as you know Sinn Fein brought forward a bill to repeal it already and that failed.

http://www.ohod.ie/index.php/property-conveyancing/property-law-news/104-pay-the-household-charge-or

Death and taxes

The Act provides that should a householder die with an outstanding Household Charge, the personal representatives shall pay it within three months of the grant of representation issuing. The interest and charges will be paused for three months after the grant, but after that the estate will have to bear the cost of additional late payment fees.



Burden on the Property

Again the Goverment has provided an elegant if infuriating way of ensuring the Household Charge is collected. The amount owing, complete with late payment fees and interest will be a burden on the property for a period of 12 years from the date it first became due and owing. So it becomes in essence a charge on your property, and will need to be removed come time to sell or remortgage with a Bank.

This is reinforced by section 10 which provides that before the completion of any sale all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest shall be paid. Failure to do this is a criminal offence and not only can the vendor be liable, but also the vendor’s Solicitor.

Section 11 of the act provides that any attempt to forge a document in respect of the Household chare will incur custodial sentences of up to 2 years or a fine of €25,000.

tayto lover

Ghandee wrote: »

They're at it again.

The IMF once again are looking towards those at the bottom, while those at the top are left to fatten up. (county managers on more than some prime ministers ffs)

If you're a minimum wage worker, your earnings are in the line of fire next.



http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/imf-targets-minimum-wage-for-employment-driven-recovery-207136.html

I can see blood about to erupt on our streets.

I hope I'm wrong though.

I am of the opinion that the I.M.F. are using this wee country as an experiment. They are using their programmed laboratory mice to press the little buttons to see how far they can go and how much we will take. The mice will face the backlash and the I.M.F. will then change tact.
It's like a little experiment"How to takeover Europe by fear".

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

I am of the opinion that the I.M.F. are using this wee country as an experiment. They are using their programmed laboratory mice to press the little buttons to see how far they can go and how much we will take. The mice will face the backlash and the I.M.F. will then change tact.
It's like a little experiment"How to takeover Europe by fear".

How the whole thing works........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si1lxcwJqI0

ncdadam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It can't be quietly dropped. As long as it is on the statute books it's provisions apply as any solicitor will tell you if you are selling, buying, bequeathing or inheriting a house. And as you know Sinn Fein brought forward a bill to repeal it already and that failed.

http://www.ohod.ie/index.php/property-conveyancing/property-law-news/104-pay-the-household-charge-or

Death and taxes

The Act provides that should a householder die with an outstanding Household Charge, the personal representatives shall pay it within three months of the grant of representation issuing. The interest and charges will be paused for three months after the grant, but after that the estate will have to bear the cost of additional late payment fees.



Burden on the Property

Again the Goverment has provided an elegant if infuriating way of ensuring the Household Charge is collected. The amount owing, complete with late payment fees and interest will be a burden on the property for a period of 12 years from the date it first became due and owing. So it becomes in essence a charge on your property, and will need to be removed come time to sell or remortgage with a Bank.

This is reinforced by section 10 which provides that before the completion of any sale all household charges, late payment fees and late payment interest shall be paid. Failure to do this is a criminal offence and not only can the vendor be liable, but also the vendor’s Solicitor.

Section 11 of the act provides that any attempt to forge a document in respect of the Household chare will incur custodial sentences of up to 2 years or a fine of €25,000.

They'll repeal it themselves when the new tax on homes comes in.
We can't have both.
I haven't paid it and I won't pay it.

ncdadam

I wonder when people who don't own their homes will start paying for the services they receive from the county councils?

the groutch

they will pay for them when household charges/property taxes are passed onto them via higher rents

jetfiremuck

ncdadam wrote: »

The 0.5% is a recommendation by the IMF alone, it is not a troika instruction for our 'government', yet!
The 'government' will go in as low as their allowed by the troika and then increase it to the IMF's rate over a couple of years.

Give it 2 or 3 years and the property tax will be around the €2,000 mark.

Ffs the gov are part of the Troika and are in meetings with them.. Its a dog and pony show thats all it is... The gov as a whole will never do without simple as that.

dxhound2005

ncdadam wrote: »

They'll repeal it themselves when the new tax on homes comes in.
We can't have both.
I haven't paid it and I won't pay it.

What is your source for that and are you sure it is good? I thought the CAHWT argument for Dont Register was it stopped properties being put on the database. Since the property tax is not coming into effect until July 2013 why would the HHC act be repealed when it can be used to get more on the database before then.

I have no source for this assumption but I would think that the provisions of the HHC act could be incorporated into the Property Tax act including attaching the outstanding charges to the property. It may even have more draconian provisions like those in the North but who knows at this stage.

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-don-t-pay-my-rates

If you don't pay your rates

If you do not pay your rates or contact LPS to make an arrangement to clear your account, you will be taken to court. This will mean:
•additional costs
•your credit rating could be affected, and as a result you may not be able to apply for credit or a loan
•you could be made bankrupt
•your home could be repossessed

In 2011 - 12 court action was taken against 45,902 ratepayers for non-payment of rates.

ncdadam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What is your source for that and are you sure it is good? I thought the CAHWT argument for Dont Register was it stopped properties being put on the database. Since the property tax is not coming into effect until July 2013 why would the HHC act be repealed when it can be used to get more on the database before then.

I have no source for this assumption but I would think that the provisions of the HHC act could be incorporated into the Property Tax act including attaching the outstanding charges to the property. It may even have more draconian provisions like those in the North but who knows at this stage.

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-don-t-pay-my-rates

If you don't pay your rates

If you do not pay your rates or contact LPS to make an arrangement to clear your account, you will be taken to court. This will mean:
•additional costs
•your credit rating could be affected, and as a result you may not be able to apply for credit or a loan
•you could be made bankrupt
•your home could be repossessed

In 2011 - 12 court action was taken against 45,902 ratepayers for non-payment of rates.

I don't we can compare anything in the north to down here.
A completely different barrel of fish, as they say.

ncdadam

the groutch wrote: »

they will pay for them when household charges/property taxes are passed onto them via higher rents

Are the county councils going to put up the rents for their tenants?
First I've heard of it.

mikom

Brilliant from politics.ie...........

RE: HOUSEHOLD CHARGE PAYMENT


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to inform you that at present I am unable to pay the 100 euro household charge. This is because I have been unemployed for

---

and my only income is Jobseekers Allowance, every cent of which has to go on essentials such as that food which I cannot produce myself, and mortgage payments. There is none left over at the end of each week for additional taxes. Naturally should I become employed again I will pay the charge as soon as possible.

In the meantime I would like to suggest a solution to this problem, as I am aware that local authorities need the income raised from the Household Charge in order to provide essential services, and do not wish to be living off the labour of others more than I am already.

I would say that a very great proportion of local authority expenses goes towards the wages of its employees or contractors. Also, that almost every day one or the other of the many departments of which Mayo County Council comprises must leave aside essential work because of employee absences. These may be unplanned absences such as days off for sickness, or absences which are known of in advance such as maternity or annual leave. Either way, and assuming that Mayo County Council is run as a tight ship with no idle hands to fill in for missing employees, these absences must cause delay to essential work.

Another reason where temporary workers might be required at short notice would be a sudden and unforeseen demand upon MCC resources, such as the damage to the bridge at Turlough which occurred some months ago and which as far as I know is still closed to traffic.

What I am proposing is that the Council accepts my labour in lieu of the Household Charge. I would be available to be called upon at short notice to fill in for Council employee absences, and as a graduate

---

with particular experience in

---

I am sure I would be of use somewhere within the Council. Given the minimum wage at 8.65 euro per hr, two full 8 hour days work at a value of 138.40 euro ought to be ample for an amount of work equivalent to the Household Charge. As few Council employees are likely to be on the minimum wage this seems to me to be a very good deal for the Council., especially when employers PRSI and pension contributions are considered, which need not be paid to a temporary employee.

I realise that this is may be a new idea and that objections might be raised, however I have been thinking about this for some time and feel confident that it would work, certainly for myself and most probably for the many other unemployed Mayo residents who find themselves unable to pay the Household Charge. There are no losers; the government gets to keep the 100 euro it would otherwise have to pay to the Council, which benefits from a greater amount of work from me than the 100 euro would have paid for as well as continuing to provide a service to its clients during employee absences, and I would have fulfilled my obligation to contribute towards the society in which I live and of which I am a part.

I would be delighted to discuss this matter further with Council officials. Please find my attached C.V., you may be sure that I would prove quite willing to substitute my time, of which I have a surfeit, for my money of which I am in deficit.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/195890-substituting-labour-household-charge-payment.html

Ghandee

mikom wrote: »

Brilliant from politics.ie...........

Brilliant alright Mikom!

It'll never work though, labour in lieu of payment cannot be lodged into our European overlords bulging Bank accounts.

I'll say it again.

Blood on our streets!

dxhound2005

That letter is from someone who calls themselves Cottage Economist and lists their interests as: :Sustainability,self sufficiency, economy.

I don't give much for their chances of sustainability or self sufficiency or holding on to any form of private property if they genuinely couldn't come up with €100 between January and April or €111 between January and July.