Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Le_Dieux

syngindub wrote: »

Has anyone got a letter about this yet?

NO!

lugha

ncdadam wrote: »

So how's this going to help?
OK, people will pay their property tax but at what price?
The money they pay for a property tax will then not be spent in the local economy,less VAT will be collected, more businesses will fail putting more people on the dole.
Result? less income tax collected & a bigger welfare bill.

As long as the troika are happy though, eh?

Yes, a property tax will have an adverse effect on the economy. But so too would any tax as it too will remove money from the economy. But other taxes, like income tax, will have additional undesirable effects, so it is more the case that a property tax is the least worst rather than the best option.

And ditto if social welfare payments are cut and if public sector salaries and even jobs are cut. Both will result in less money in the economy. But all of these measures will have to be taken because we have no real choice (And not because of the Troika. We would be in substantially worse trouble were it not for them)

But we can’t do nothing. If we refused to address our deficit the our lenders of last resort would simply not lend to us and then we would be looking to make a ~ 15 billion adjustment in one year rather than a measly (!) 3-4 billion one.

Contrary to what some like to believe there is simply no way out of the mess we are in that will not hammer ordinary workers.

John_Rambo

robbie7730 wrote: »

So you did not pay because you had excellent services as you previously claimed. You paid to save the country.

I paid my household charge, I expect others to pay it too. What's confusing you?

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

Contrary to what some like to believe there is simply no way out of the mess we are in that will not hammer ordinary workers.

Thats the problem, the ordinary workers and home owners seem to be the ones taking most of the bloody hammering when fat cats and politicians seem to be untouchable and inconsiderate.

Daisy M

John_Rambo wrote: »

Fair point Ghandee, I am stirring it up a bit... but here's my position.

I paid it, I thought long and hard about it, but the area I chose to live in has excellent services. I don't want the services to stop.

Friends of mine live in a rural one of house. They chose to build there, I thought they were nuts, but they wanted it. Their services are massivly subsidised, but they think they aren't because they paid various connection fees. I think they should pay it.



Thanks.

John_Rambo wrote: »

I paid my household charge, I expect others to pay it too. What's confusing you?

Its obvious that this is what is confusing. You paid it after thinking long and hard about it, not because it is mandatory. You decided your services are excellent and want to continue availing of them so now because you have reached that conclusion you expect others to pay to, how does this make sense? What about the person who thought long and hard and decided their services are not excellent and they will not lose out by not paying?

John_Rambo

Daisy M wrote: »

What about the person who thought long and hard and decided their services are not excellent and they will not lose out by not paying?

Ah, fair enough... They need to think longer and harder.

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

No it isn’t. Repeat that as often as you like, it won’t become true.

We have a massive deficit that we have to address, even if their were no issue with bailouts or bondholders. We are spending more than we raise in taxes, simply as that.

all I can say is ROLL ON 2014 , tear up the CPA and hit the pay and pensions of those overpaid, underworked, wasteful plebs in the ps!!!!.....should have been done 4 years ago, but the unions got in quick, made a dirty little agreement with the govt. and hey presto!....no pay cuts for 3+ years !....as one panelist on Vincent Browne said, Inda should just hand the keys of the country over to Jack O Connor.....god help us all:(

tayto lover

Daisy M wrote: »

Its obvious that this is what is confusing. You paid it after thinking long and hard about it, not because it is mandatory. You decided your services are excellent and want to continue availing of them so now because you have reached that conclusion you expect others to pay to, how does this make sense? What about the person who thought long and hard and decided their services are not excellent and they will not lose out by not paying?

He's trolling obviously. Copped that a lot earlier.

Daisy M

tayto lover wrote: »

He's trolling obviously. Copped that a lot earlier.

I think the idea is to turn this into another one of housing debate!!

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

No it isn’t. Repeat that as often as you like, it won’t become true.

We have a massive deficit that we have to address, even if their were no issue with bailouts or bondholders. We are spending more than we raise in taxes, simply as that.

Lugha, you just hit the nail on the head "We are spending more than we raise in taxes, simply as that".....spending needs to be cut.

can you answer me this question please... what was all the extra income the govt. received during the property boom spent on ?

Ghandee

I was about to post exactly what daisym posted!

Mr Rambo, trolling don't work when its too obvious.....

tayto lover

Izzy Skint wrote: »

all I can say is ROLL ON 2014 , tear up the CPA and hit the pay and pensions of those overpaid, underworked, wasteful plebs in the ps!!!!.....should have been done 4 years ago, but the unions got in quick, made a dirty little agreement with the govt. and hey presto!....no pay cuts for 3+ years !....as one panelist on Vincent Browne said, Inda should just hand the keys of the country over to Jack O Connor.....god help us all:(

The cuts should only be at the top. There are many sectors of the Public Sector on very poor pay. They have already been hit.
I don't want to see the situation where I could need medical attention for myself or a family member but the nurses are on strike. I don't want to see the Firemen or Garda on strike either as they are not well paid.
I think that both sectors should be uniting in fighting cuts rather than one being pitted against the other. Bad mistake that and just what the rich want.

jetfiremuck

donalg1 wrote: »

Who knows, although I am sure they wouldnt be able to cut them so easily, they now can blame the cut in services on the HHC. Plus if the HHC had been collected in full there would have been more money in the pot which would have lessened the cuts im sure.




I do believe the government are cutting these services due to a lack of collection of the HHC as some County Councils have said as much already.

You all dont get it. The hhc will only replace what is being paid to the councils from central government. Its NOT a supplement..... If they got a million before the hhc .... Theyll still get a million even if all the hhc gets paid up....ffs cant people see this... Classic example. How come that the hours to pay road tax is less than to get the old age pension......and the motor tax office is a paypoint to the coffers..!!!!!!

Izzy Skint

tayto lover wrote: »

The cuts should only be at the top. There are many sectors of the Public Sector on very poor pay. They have already been hit.
I don't want to see the situation where I could need medical attention for myself or a family member but the nurses are on strike. I don't want to see the Firemen or Garda on strike either as they are not well paid.
I think that both sectors should be uniting in fighting cuts rather than one being pitted against the other. Bad mistake that and just what the rich want.

Tayto, I agree, some ps are poorly paid, some work very hard etc...but when they have ON AVERAGE €300 a week more than private sector, no accountability, numerous perks, job security, pension security, pay untouchable etc. etc. .....and the rest of us have to dig deeper to support all this?....they have been hit, but definitely not enough...especially at the upper levels..... our teachers, police, nurses etc. are paid more than their counterparts in most if not all other countries in europe, why are there no strikes in these countries?

Slick50

jetfiremuck wrote: »

You all dont get it. The hhc will only replace what is being paid to the councils from central government. Its NOT a supplement..... If they got a million before the hhc .... Theyll still get a million even if all the hhc gets paid up....ffs cant people see this... Classic example.!

The HHC is meant to replace the monies that the government have reduced the LA's payments by. If they don't collect it all they will not have the same ammount as previously.

Why do you think Phil is ordering LA's to reduce their expenditure?

tayto lover

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Tayto, I agree, some ps are poorly paid, some work very hard etc...but when they have ON AVERAGE €300 a week more than private sector, no accountability, numerous perks, job security, pension security, pay untouchable etc. etc. .....and the rest of us have to dig deeper to support all this?....they have been hit, but definitely not enough...especially at the upper levels..... our teachers, police, nurses etc. are paid more than their counterparts in most if not all other countries in europe, why are there no strikes in these countries?

I really don't know how they could come up with a 300e difference to be honest. I saw a nurse's pay slip (a lad in my GAA club) and it was poor enough. He also works shifts including 12 hour night shifts. I think the difference of 300e is made when they add all the wages of the Public Sector and divide it by the number of workers. The lads at the top get too much which distorts the pay of those at the bottom. Far too many chiefs and admin staff on big wages. The job security should be done away with because if you are no good at your job you should not be kept on.
One thing the Croke Park agreement did was open up accountability as from listening to politicians like Howlin speaking on the News they are implementing that part of it and no harm.
The other countries thing i pay no heed to. We in Ireland don't have the same standard of living, healthcare, free education, VRT rates etc that they have. Look what they get for their Household charge in England. I would pay for that.

dxhound2005

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Tayto, I agree, some ps are poorly paid, some work very hard etc...but when they have ON AVERAGE €300 a week more than private sector, no accountability, numerous perks, job security, pension security, pay untouchable etc. etc. .....and the rest of us have to dig deeper to support all this?....they have been hit, but definitely not enough...especially at the upper levels..... our teachers, police, nurses etc. are paid more than their counterparts in most if not all other countries in europe, why are there no strikes in these countries?

That comparison is a bit meaningless. There are about 300,000 employed in the public service mostly full time and their average pay would include high earners like judges and hospital consultants. There are about 1.5 million employed in the private sector and their average would include many low earners like part time cleaners. What is the equivalent of a chambermaid in the public service?

One thing is for certain. Nobody in the public service is paid anywhere near the top salaries in the private sector.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That comparison is a bit meaningless. There are about 300,000 employed in the public service mostly full time and their average pay would include high earners like judges and hospital consultants. There are about 1.5 million employed in the private sector and their average would include many low earners like part time cleaners. What is the equivalent of a chambermaid in the public service?

One thing is for certain. Nobody in the public service is paid anywhere near the top salaries in the private sector.

The nurse whose pay-slip I saw was not taking home much over 400 after all the deductions. Now that's only twice the dole for a lot of hard and stressful work. He is 6 years in the job. The newspapers are only trying to cause conflict and to divide the sectors. Both sectors should be uniting to keep wages on track with living costs.
The workers in this country (both Sectors) are being scared purposefully to keep them quiet and to make them feel lucky to get what they are getting, all while the rich get richer. People should really start to question why they are being fed this rubbish.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One thing is for certain. Nobody in the public service is paid anywhere near the top salaries in the private sector.

Ok, so if what you say must be true, then the opposite must equally be true?

A: Nobody in the public service is paid anywhere near the top salaries in the private sector

The opposite of which must be:

B: all in the public service are paid a lot more than the lowest salaries in the private sector?

I believe example 'A' tbh.

On example 'B' i wouldn't believe.

tayto lover

Ghandee wrote: »

Ok, so if what you say must be true, then the opposite must equally be true?

A: Nobody in the public service is paid anywhere near the top salaries in the private sector

The opposite of which must be:

B: all in the public service are paid a lot more than the lowest salaries in the private sector?

I believe example 'A' tbh.

On example 'B' i wouldn't believe.

Yes. The vast majority of the workers in both sectors are a lot nearer the bottom than the top. I would love to see a comparison in like for like as near as possible.

darkhorse

ncdadam wrote: »

So not the question as you posted.

OK.

1. I draw the line at a tax that is only aimed at people who own property.
2.Only this 'tax' law as it is ill conceived and seems to attack only one section of society.

The funny thing is, nc, it was in the paper last week that they have decided to charge the property tax on the value of one's home. A home is a place that we live in, just as the mobile home that a good friend of mine owns and lives in full time, but guess what, its exempt. I wonder, is that because a mobile home is not made of bricks and mortar. Another significant thing to note, my home is built on a site measuring an eight of an acre, whereas my friend who lives in a mobile home is surrounded by an acre, but thats neither here nor there, just food for thought. Anyway, I was thinking, the next time I am painting the outside of my gaff, I am gonna paint three wheels on the front of it and three wheels on the back of it and see how I get on.:)

tayto lover

darkhorse wrote: »

The funny thing is, nc, it was in the paper last week that they have decided to charge the property tax on the value of one's home. A home is a place that we live in, just as the mobile home that a good friend of mine owns and lives in full time, but guess what, its exempt. I wonder, is that because a mobile home is not made of bricks and mortar. Another significant thing to note, my home is built on a site measuring an eight of an acre, whereas my friend who lives in a mobile home is surrounded by an acre, but thats neither here nor there, just food for thought. Anyway, I was thinking, the next time I am painting the outside of my gaff, I am gonna paint three wheels on the front of it and three wheels on the back of it and see how I get on.:)

Are Halting Sites exempt too?

Izzy Skint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That comparison is a bit meaningless. There are about 300,000 employed in the public service mostly full time and their average pay would include high earners like judges and hospital consultants. There are about 1.5 million employed in the private sector and their average would include many low earners like part time cleaners. What is the equivalent of a chambermaid in the public service?

One thing is for certain. Nobody in the public service is paid anywhere near the top salaries in the private sector.

The private sector regulates itself, it's called the free market, you can price you sink or swim, The private sector creates the wealth that keeps the country afloat. Answer me this, what % of the 1.5 million private sector workers, do the top paid private sector workers account for ?...whatever it is , it's a tiny %.

Why are the govt. considering contracting out to the private sector?..

Teachers paid €500m+ in "allowances" just last year, that is "allowances" on top of their salary...absolutely no room for any savings there?

The amount spent on health and education has grown massively over the past decade, HOWEVER, up to 80% of this extra spend was on salaries + pensions....not services or facilities.

Any public sector cut in numbers has been down to early gilt edged retirement pensions....it will take years for any serious savings to be felt from those....and we don't have the time to wait.

tayto lover

Izzy Skint wrote: »

The private sector regulates itself, it's called the free market, you can price you sink or swim, The private sector creates the wealth that keeps the country afloat. Answer me this, what % of the 1.5 million private sector workers, do the top paid private sector workers account for ?...whatever it is , it's a tiny %.

Why are the govt. considering contracting out to the private sector?..

Teachers paid €500m+ in "allowances" just last year, that is "allowances" on top of their salary...absolutely no room for any savings there?

The amount spent on health and education has grown massively over the past decade, HOWEVER, up to 80% of this extra spend was on salaries + pensions....not services or facilities.

Any public sector cut in numbers has been down to early gilt edged retirement pensions....it will take years for any serious savings to be felt from those....and we don't have the time to wait.

I wonder is the increase in the HSE and Education spending linked to the increase in the population. Nobody seems to mention the growing population. James Reilly did say that 80% of spending in the HSE was on wages though so it's time to start cutting at the top. Far too many chiefs and not enough indians.

ncdadam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That comparison is a bit meaningless. There are about 300,000 employed in the public service mostly full time and their average pay would include high earners like judges and hospital consultants. There are about 1.5 million employed in the private sector and their average would include many low earners like part time cleaners. What is the equivalent of a chambermaid in the public service?

One thing is for certain. Nobody in the public service is paid anywhere near the top salaries in the private sector.

The head of IBRC (anglo), owned by the taxpayer earned €863,000 last year.

tayto lover

ncdadam wrote: »

The head of IBRC (anglo), owned by the taxpayer earned €863,000 last year.

Now that is MADNESS.

Izzy Skint

tayto lover wrote: »

I wonder is the increase in the HSE and Education spending linked to the increase in the population. Nobody seems to mention the growing population. James Reilly did say that 80% of spending in the HSE was on wages though so it's time to start cutting at the top. Far too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Tayto, I agree with you again re. too many chiefs and not enough indians. The population has grown but not that much, we still number only 4.5 million, and over 100,000 have emmigrated, possibly more.
When you look at the huge increase in revenue pumped into the HSE over the past decade, but yet they have closed / downgraded many hospitals, closed wards etc. ...it just doesn't add up?.....where is the money going?

dxhound2005

ncdadam wrote: »

The head of IBRC (anglo), owned by the taxpayer earned €863,000 last year.

The head of Guinness was paid £11 million last year. Do you think he could do with a little bit less and pay the cleaners in his Irish operations a little more? The private sector likes to justify these ridiculous salaries by saying talent must be rewarded. But there is no way that the head of a drinks company is worth 30 or 40 times what the President of the USA gets, not in my book at least.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0906/business/diageo-chiefs-salary-doubles-to-11m-as-shares-soar-206548.html

Izzy Skint

ncdadam wrote: »

The head of IBRC (anglo), owned by the taxpayer earned €863,000 last year.

DXHOUND......is the above mentioned a public sector worker?

mikom

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The head of Guinness was paid £11 million last year. Do you think he could do with a little bit less and pay the cleaners in his Irish operations a little more? The private sector likes to justify these ridiculous salaries by saying talent must be rewarded. But there is no way that the head of a drinks company is worth 30 or 40 times what the President of the USA gets, not in my book at least.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0906/business/diageo-chiefs-salary-doubles-to-11m-as-shares-soar-206548.html

Wtf has that got to do the household charge?

Straws......... grasped.