Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

Mayo Co Co to start bringing cases to the district court next month, and will be seeking legal costs. At last, we'll get to see the colour of the CAHWT's money.

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16098:householders-warned-to-pay-up-or-face-court&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

From Politics.ie

RE: HOUSEHOLD CHARGE PAYMENT


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing
to inform you that at present I am unable to pay the 100 euro household charge.
This is because I have been unemployed for

---

and my only income is
Jobseekers Allowance, every cent of which has to go on essentials such as that
food which I cannot produce myself, and mortgage payments. There is none left
over at the end of each week for additional taxes. Naturally should I become
employed again I will pay the charge as soon as possible.

In the
meantime I would like to suggest a solution to this problem, as I am aware that
local authorities need the income raised from the Household Charge in order to
provide essential services, and do not wish to be living off the labour of
others more than I am already.

I would say that a very great proportion
of local authority expenses goes towards the wages of its employees or
contractors. Also, that almost every day one or the other of the many
departments of which Mayo County Council comprises must leave aside essential
work because of employee absences. These may be unplanned absences such as days
off for sickness, or absences which are known of in advance such as maternity
or annual leave. Either way, and assuming that Mayo County Council is run as a
tight ship with no idle hands to fill in for missing employees, these absences
must cause delay to essential work.

Another reason where temporary
workers might be required at short notice would be a sudden and unforeseen
demand upon MCC resources, such as the damage to the bridge at Turlough which
occurred some months ago and which as far as I know is still closed to traffic.


What I am proposing is that the Council accepts my labour in lieu of
the Household Charge. I would be available to be called upon at short notice to
fill in for Council employee absences, and as a graduate

---

with
particular experience in

---

I am sure I would be of use somewhere within
the Council. Given the minimum wage at 8.65 euro per hr, two full 8 hour days
work at a value of 138.40 euro ought to be ample for an amount of work
equivalent to the Household Charge. As few Council employees are likely to be
on the minimum wage this seems to me to be a very good deal for the Council.,
especially when employers PRSI and pension contributions are considered, which
need not be paid to a temporary employee.

I realise that this is may
be a new idea and that objections might be raised, however I have been thinking
about this for some time and feel confident that it would work, certainly for
myself and most probably for the many other unemployed Mayo residents who find
themselves unable to pay the Household Charge. There are no losers; the
government gets to keep the 100 euro it would otherwise have to pay to the
Council, which benefits from a greater amount of work from me than the 100 euro
would have paid for as well as continuing to provide a service to its clients
during employee absences, and I would have fulfilled my obligation to contribute
towards the society in which I live and of which I am a part.

I would
be delighted to discuss this matter further with Council officials. Please find
my attached C.V., you may be sure that I would prove quite willing to substitute
my time, of which I have a surfeit, for my money of which I am in deficit.

http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/195890-substituting-labour-household-charge-payment.html

If the mayo council decided to bring this person on jobseekers allowance trying to make mortgage payments- being unable to be in a position to pay the household tax to court-Id Imagine the council would lose as the persons circumstances would prob be taken into consideration by the Judge-I guess we all have to just wait and see.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

Mayo Co Co to start bringing cases to the district court next month, and will be seeking legal costs. At last, we'll get to see the colour of the CAHWT's money.

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16098:householders-warned-to-pay-up-or-face-court&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

This court case will be interesting, especially if the judge hearing the case can read and he happens to come across this story. I wonder will he notice this part--.He also accused former County Manager Des Mahon of being a ‘freeloader’ forclaiming €3,022 in expenses despite being retired. I know, nothing got to do with the case of not paying the HHC, all the same, must be something corrupt in a person thats retired being eligible to claim expenses.

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

This court case will be interesting, especially if the judge hearing the case can read and he happens to come across this story. I wonder will he notice this part--.He also accused former County Manager Des Mahon of being a ‘freeloader’ forclaiming €3,022 in expenses despite being retired. I know, nothing got to do with the case of not paying the HHC, all the same, must be something corrupt in a person thats retired being eligible to claim expenses.

Maybe someone in Mayo could tell us about Frank Durkan, a bit of a colourful character judging by the reports. All county council meetings in Mayo had to be suspended one time because his antics. It might have something to do with his little falling out with Fine Gael.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/01/17/113259/

Raising his voice on several occasions to try to reply, Cllr Durcan eventually stood up, screaming, the anger in his voice clear to see.
“I have the right to reply. He [Cllr Kenny] brought up this thing of me leaving the Fine Gael party. I want to answer him. I never left the Fine Gael party. I left the Kenny party.”

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They also promise legal assistance for anyone going to court but never answer how their so called legal teams would deal with the fact that any lawyer complicit in the facilitation of tax evasion is guilty of an offence themselves.

I think that's more to do with solicitors dealing with transfer of ownership. despite their interference with the judicial system FG haven't managed to stop peoples right to representation in court, well, not yet anyway. (and if they have we may as well be living in a dictatorship)

Mr. teddywinkles

I can see this as being the straw that broke the camels back with the public.
If the government don't introduce this tax fairly (but how do u judge what is fair with this type of tax) or not at all, people will march.
I mean the amount of people not paying proves this.

dxhound2005

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

I can see this as being the straw that broke the camels back with the public.
If the government don't introduce this tax fairly (but how do u judge what is fair with this type of tax) or not at all, people will march.
I mean the amount of people not paying proves this.

Welcome to the discussion after 17,000 odd posts. We have had all this last straw, blood on the streets stuff from the start. A bit extreme in reaction to a €100 charge.

dvpower

Am Chile wrote: »

From Politics.ie



http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/195890-substituting-labour-household-charge-payment.html

If the mayo council decided to bring this person on jobseekers allowance trying to make mortgage payments- being unable to be in a position to pay the household tax to court-Id Imagine the council would lose as the persons circumstances would prob be taken into consideration by the Judge-I guess we all have to just wait and see.

You misunderstand the role of district court judges and the concept of seperation of powers.

ncdadam

dvpower wrote: »

Mayo Co Co to start bringing cases to the district court next month, and will be seeking legal costs. At last, we'll get to see the colour of the CAHWT's money.

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16098:householders-warned-to-pay-up-or-face-court&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

10,000 in Mayo, eh?
Only 590,000 more to go.

ncdadam

I hope the first case is well publicised, I'll make the journey to Mayo to contribute some money to the case.
Lovely part of the country and I could do with a few days off.

ncdadam

dvpower wrote: »

You misunderstand the role of district court judges and the concept of seperation of powers.

The council would probably win the case, it'll be interesting to see.
However, an inability to pay would see the judge having to make a decision.
Would it be worth sending someone to jail for €100?
You know, hopefully the judge would send someone to jail, the public's anger would be there for all to see, most lightly it would collapse the government because Labour could not stand by and see that happen, could they?
Only other option would be an instalment order, €0.50 a week or something.
The sooner this crap law is brought to a head, the better.

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

You would be better to ask someone with legal training but IMO, no on both counts. If you renege on a legal agreement the injured party can sue you and you may have a judgement made against you. But it would not be a criminal conviction. And similarly with contempt of court. But as I say, ask a solicitor if you are determined, as it seems you are, to hang the “criminal” label on some.

And you are being disingenuous in relation to Reilly by quoting (or even mis-quoting!) selective facts. The pertinent question to ask is, was there any time through this saga when a course of action was open to him that he could have taken but did not? I don’t think there is / was.
Preposterous argument! Did Reilly agree to whatever law requires that legal contracts be honoured? No he didn’t any more than he agreed to the law prohibiting murder or theft or anything else. And of course, it doesn’t matter than he didn’t. If he does business in this state he is bound by the rules of this state, as are you.


It would do very little in terms of reducing our deficit.

And even as a gesture it would have very limited impact. Certainly ordinary people who struggle to pay bills may focus their ire on over-paid politicians. But even if the salaries of the latter are slashed that won’t reduce by 1c the bills that those who are struggling have to pay.

You really have your head buried in the sand lugha. With regard to FG it's always a case of hear no evil, see no evil. It really is a case of you being totally brainwashed. I now suspect that you have a family member in the party such is your "blindness".

dxhound2005

ncdadam wrote: »

The council would probably win the case, it'll be interesting to see.
However, an inability to pay would see the judge having to make a decision.
Would it be worth sending someone to jail for €100?
You know, hopefully the judge would send someone to jail, the public's anger would be there for all to see, most lightly it would collapse the government because Labour could not stand by and see that happen, could they?
Only other option would be an instalment order, €0.50 a week or something.
The sooner this crap law is brought to a head, the better.

As far as I know inability to pay would have to be proved in court, statement of means and all that. A question which would occur to me is how could anybody maintain ownership of a private house and all that goes with that since January if they genuinely could not come up with €100 to avoid breaking the law and finishing up in court. It would seem especially strange in the current climate with so many Mayo people in pursuit of All Ireland tickets (GAA chief says Donegal and Mayo would probably fill Croke Park twice over).

Anyway the ones that got the letters are most likely those with more than one house so they should be first in court.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

Mayo Co Co to start bringing cases to the district court next month, and will be seeking legal costs. At last, we'll get to see the colour of the CAHWT's money.

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16098:householders-warned-to-pay-up-or-face-court&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

You should get yourself a ring-side seat then as you seem to enjoy seeing people suffer. It will not be CAHWT members who will be prosecuted but poor unfortunate members of society who are genuinely struggling with mortgages, school fees etc.
But go and celebrate nevertheless and have a great day.

mikom

Methinks there is a bit of a mixup somewhere and these householders being threatened with court in Mayo are those with secondary residences.
The article states that they are to receive final warning letters to pay up........ that means they have received one already....... but we have been told on this thread that those that received letters were those with secondary residences not owner occupiers.

The 10,000 in Mayo out of 600,000 would lead me again to think that these are secondary residences, as there are surely way, way more non paying owner occupiers in Mayo.

They would wanna get their facts straight.
Sounds like another clusterfuck by our betters....

lugha

tayto lover wrote: »

I now suspect that you have a family member in the party

Again with the conspiracy theories! :rolleyes:

Anytime you have no answer for an awkward truth you come up with a conspiracy theory.

So you can’t point out where and when Reilly might have done things differently (which is not to say this can’t be done, only that you can’t), so you start ranting that whoever asks you these pesky question must be a paid up member of FG (I am not nor ever have been a member of any party and I have said several times here that it makes almost no difference who is in government)

You can’t explain why the government would remain fairly popular if there was widespread discontent with property tax so you allege that the polls are rigged!

And wasn’t it you that questioned the numbers who have paid the HHC because it undermines the suggestion that there is widespread opposition to it?

If you have to continually depart from reality to make your arguments stand up then at some point you might want to consider that these same arguments may not have the best of legs under them wouldn’t you say?

ncdadam

Does anyone have a figure on how many renters and local authority tenants there are in the country?

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

Mayo Co Co to start bringing cases to the district court next month, and will be seeking legal costs. At last, we'll get to see the colour of the CAHWT's money.

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16098:householders-warned-to-pay-up-or-face-court&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

Thats all it is with supporters of FG, the colour of money. Hand it over in bagfuls folk, never mind where you get it from

Roll on court cases in Mayo, it'll only take the one mistake in court (and with our public representitives thats very, very possible) for the whole thing to be thrown out of court, and create a doiminoe effect to all other cases in the land.

I say this as someone exempt from the charge, but roll on Mayo, I may even join mcdadam on an old road trip for a few days in Mayo to show support.

If they win the All Ireland, it'll mean extra craic when there!
We could spend many times the equivalent of the HHC on pints lol!:D

bgrizzley

@ ncdadam , latest cso figures say 474,788

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/fewer-irish-people-own-their-own-homes-and-renters-jump-by-47pc-in-latest-cso-figures-3215254.html

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Anyway the ones that got the letters will be those with more than one house, as the Govt havent a fcuking clue where the rest of the non payers/anyone liable are in the country!

FYP.

bgrizzley

Ghandee wrote: »

FYP.

these guys know where they are though

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/warning-over-fake-household-charge-callers-3229654.html

congrats to FG for starting up a whole new enterprise for the criminal fraternity..

ncdadam

bgrizzley wrote: »

these guys know where they are though

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/warning-over-fake-household-charge-callers-3229654.html

congrats to FG for starting up a whole new enterprise for the criminal fraternity..

Imaging FG giving a cover for criminals.

dxhound2005

ncdadam wrote: »

Does anyone have a figure on how many renters and local authority tenants there are in the country?

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=172055

Renting from a private landlord or housing body 320,319
Renting from a local authority 129,033

The private landlord would be liable for the HHC and NPPR.

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=172055

Renting from a private landlord or housing body 320,319
Renting from a local authority 129,033

The private landlord would be liable for the HHC and NPPR.

only liable though, the payment of this wealth tax will be borne by the renters who dont own their home(an asset, im told)and who already pay rent(the reason a mortgaged home is an asset, im told;)).

dxhound2005

bgrizzley wrote: »

only liable though, the payment of this wealth tax will be borne by the renters who dont own their home(an asset, im told)and who already pay rent(the reason a mortgaged home is an asset, im told;)).

Without looking it up I saw some figures that €68 million had been collected in one of the years for NPPR which would be 340,000 houses x €200.

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Without looking it up I saw some figures that €68 million had been collected in one of the years for NPPR which would be 340,000 houses x €200.

sounds about right.
i wouldnt have an issue with the nppr though, anyone can sell their second property if they dont like the tax. its a lot harder to sell the roof over your head and live in a tent (cause your landlord will charge you the tax anyway if you rent:()

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Again with the conspiracy theories! :rolleyes:
you can’t explain why the government would remain fairly popular if there was widespread discontent with property tax so you allege that the polls are rigged!

Listen up everyone. I am having my broadband upgraded on monday. You know what that means. It means that you will be able to read my posts faster than you ever read them before.
Thats that out of the way. Anyway, lugha, let me explain that, like you, I am not a member of any party, but I have, however, had cause to conduct polls in the course of my work. Now, as a voter, I have voted in referendums, so I really cannot see much of a difference in the two of them. What I mean is, if you don't like the answer in a referendum, you can have another one, as we have seen. By the same token, if you dont like the answer given by a respondent in a opinion poll, then just discard that respondent's answer and move to the next person and so on, until you get the answer that you require.
I am not for a minute saying this is what happens, but is it beyond the realms of possibility that it could happen.

dxhound2005

bgrizzley wrote: »

sounds about right.
i wouldnt have an issue with the nppr though, anyone can sell their second property if they dont like the tax. its a lot harder to sell the roof over your head and live in a tent (cause your landlord will charge you the tax anyway if you rent:()

You can blame or credit Fianna Fail and the Greens for the NPPR brought in in 2009. It is the same self registration model as the HHC. Difference with the NPPR is that there is a €20 per month late penalty so anyone ignoring it since the start is adding on €80 per month and looking at €3000 arrears soon instead of paying 4 x €200. All this is attached to the title of the property so a day of reckoning will surely come.

I don't remember any big fuss about it at the start or much since.

darkhorse

Ghandee wrote: »

Thats all it is with supporters of FG, the colour of money. Hand it over in bagfuls folk, never mind where you get it from

Roll on court cases in Mayo, it'll only take the one mistake in court (and with our public representitives thats very, very possible) for the whole thing to be thrown out of court, and create a doiminoe effect to all other cases in the land.

I say this as someone exempt from the charge, but roll on Mayo, I may even join mcdadam on an old road trip for a few days in Mayo to show support.

If they win the All Ireland, it'll mean extra craic when there!
We could spend many times the equivalent of the HHC on pints lol!:D

Yeah, I think I will go too. I'm sure that my missus still has a ring hid away from me somewhere in the house, in case I would sell it. This seems the perfect occasion.
I wonder if the people there will think it strange, the sight of me in the middle of Westport, saying, has anybody seen Ghandee or ncdadam.:)

dxhound2005

Still only 27% of people in the poll here have paid the HHC, it is getting less and less representative of the real figures.

I'm beginning to think this place is mostly populated by people seeking mutual reassurance that nothing bad will happen if they continue to break the law.

mikom

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm beginning to think this place is mostly populated by people seeking mutual reassurance that nothing bad will happen if they continue to break the law.....

....plus one or two state sycophants.
.
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