Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

If you had bought a car, you would have paid a nice chunk of VAT / VRT at the time of purchase but you would still pay heavily on an ongoing basis in motor tax, duty on fuel etc. And while some of this money raised is spent on services to motorists (road maintenance etc.) a sizable portion is not. Surely requiring motorists to pay extra tax, beyond what they get back in services, is also immoral?

I would agree with you that people definitly pay more in motor tax than what they get back in services and I certainly do think it unjust, however I do believe that a reasonable percentage of that revenue can be seen to be used for the purpose for which it is intended, and I appreciate the road workers in the Councils, that are out in all kinds of whether, albeit I don't agree with the preposterous amounts that the people at the top of the tree are being paid. Are you with me so far. Now, here is the crunch, please read, as I will not be going through it again. Because I am a house owner, as you would put it, I am in the position where I have to pay for and maintain my own home, which does not move from the site where it is situated. I do not depend on nobody else and if I dont have the money to maintain it, I have to borrow the money, and pay it back on top of my mortgage, not instead of it. It is for this reason that I think it immoral and unjust for me to have to pay a tax on my home.

donalg1

hiram wrote: »

Heard in the news that councils are asking for proof that students families have paid the HC before issuing grants. Is this crossing the line? I think so.

You think asking someone to pay for a service before providing them with it is crossing the line?

bgrizzley

seamus wrote: »

People who already pay very little income tax, relatively speaking. 95% of all income tax is paid by people earning €35k or more.

The other 62% of the population contribute 5% of the income tax. I would put good money on the bet that the majority of the anti-HHC people are in that bracket.

if you are saying that people earning more than 35k are more likely to be pro HHC, i would think you are incorrect (but thats just from anecdotal evidence on my part, i dont have any access to those figures any more than you do)
i think i can see your reasoning for thinking it though.(even though you are wrong(IMO)..;))

darkhorse

bamboozle wrote: »

good to see. Hope the other county council's follow suit and apply this logic across all grants/allowances paid out to ensure that all member in our society are contributing on some small scale.

So, it is your opinion that a kid living away from home in rented accomodation should be penalised for their parents decision.

crusher000

Most people going to college are over 18 thus deemed as adults. Some will have to seek accommodation if home is to far from college. So they should be penalised for the non payment of a tax (for whatever reason) by their parents?. I feared the next generation would suffer because of austerity measures but this is moving it forward very quickly. Also what was funding the VEC's before HCC ? Cuts to budgets were planned before implementation of HCC thusit's not the short fall in payments that's to blame.

bamboozle

darkhorse wrote: »

So, it is your opinion that a kid living away from home in rented accomodation should be penalised for their parents decision.

grants are not determined on the means of the kid, they're determined on the means of the parents. If the parents choose not to pay the HHC then tough luck on the kid.

It is quite simple in my eyes, its just a shock to the system for some people in our society who have gone through life with their hand out expecting the state to fork out for everything, now for a change have to put their hands in their pockets and make a contribution themselves.

Ghandee

I think a lot of people are getting ahead of themselves on this, and worked up over a storm in a teacup.

Firstly, Clare Co Co, have not come out and said that non payment of the HHC would result in a grant being refused,

"While any delay in relation to the processing of grant payments is regretted, early payment of the charge will ensure no unnecessary delay in the payment of grants.

It might be delayed, but I don't think they could refuse it.

Secondly, the legality of the county council attempted to penalise students because of their parents actions would certainly be questionable.

What next? Johnnie Murtaghs father is in jail, no grant for him, and Mary Downeys Mam has no tv license nope, no grants for her this year either?

I would like to know who made Clare County Council as judge, jury and executioner? I mean, surely it would be for a court of the law to firstly find someone guilty in some way of refusing to pay the HHC, before they could be penailsed in any way, by anybody? (then be labelled as a tax evader/defaulter)

This is one plublicity stunt that coiuld very well bring down the already shaky house of cards that has been constructed around the HHC and all things related to it.

VB will make for good viewing tonight though.

Ghandee

bamboozle wrote: »

grants are not determined on the means of the kid, they're determined on the means of the parents. If the parents choose not to pay the HHC then tough luck on the kid.

Tripe of the highest order!

How can you hold someones kids responsible for what actions their parents may have done?

Clare county council may be the ones in for a nasty shock on this. I dont think they thought this one out beforehand at all, at all.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

Tripe of the highest order!

How can you hold someones kids responsible for what actions their parents may have done?
.

Are you saying you want the means test for the grant to be based on the student's means, not the parents?
That's going to make third level education a whole lot more expensive. Who do you think should foot that bill?

bamboozle

Ghandee wrote: »

Tripe of the highest order!

How can you hold someones kids responsible for what actions their parents may have done?

Clare county council may be the ones in for a nasty shock on this. I dont think they thought this one out beforehand at all, at all.

hmmm,

lets reverse the situation, these same kids get grants based on the financial situation of their parents right? yet if the same parents choose not to pay the HHC the kids should still get the grant? If that's the case should all kids get grants?

darkhorse

ncdadam wrote: »

You do miss the point a lot, don't you.

Do ya not know that you are talking to a clever person there nc. Sure, anyone who thinks that you can invest €100 for a return of €2000, I would be behind an astute business brain like him. Far behind him, in this case.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Tripe of the highest order!

How can you hold someones kids responsible for what actions their parents may have done?

Clare county council may be the ones in for a nasty shock on this. I dont think they thought this one out beforehand at all, at all.

Well if they means test the child then wont pretty much everyone in the state get a grant, so basically free third level education for everyone, well free for them but sure the state can pay. And in these recessionary times are we now at the stage where people are saying the Govt should fund 3rd level education for everyone that wants it, no questions asked.

donalg1

darkhorse wrote: »

Do ya not know that you are talking to a clever person there nc. Sure, anyone who thinks that you can invest €100 for a return of €2000, I would be behind an astute business brain like him. Far behind him, in this case.

Well at least you realise this anyway.

I mean is there really anyone out there stupid enough to think it would be wise not to pay €100 to the Council when not paying them could mean you dont get a grant of €2000 or more. I for one cant imagine there is anyone stupid enough, but sure it wont be the first time someone elses stupidity has surprised me, maybe I give people too much credit.

darkhorse

bamboozle wrote: »

why is it sickening?

unfortunately, we are stuck in a situation where croke park has protected the highly inflated salaries of the public service many of which are still increasing through pay increments annually. This is sickening.

Correct.


the state is paying €9 billion for salaries in the HSE alone. this is sickening.

Correct.

Having to pay your household charge prior to receiving these generous grants is far from sickening, its a logical stipulation put in place at a time when this country is borrowing millions every day to pay the over inflated salaries of paid public service workers.

So college kids should pay? Good logic.

crusher000

Problem is as always with Government departments is if it's not working throw more money at it . Who is looking at improving effecencies ? Who is planning for a decrease in next years budget ? I work in the private sector and the company I work for are on Continuos Improvement and working on effeciences year in and year out. As after all it's only smart business to lower your working costs. Come on people I'm no genious and I can see it but our state departments can't seem to get it.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

darkhorse wrote: »

Do ya not know that you are talking to a clever person there nc. Sure, anyone who thinks that you can invest €100 for a return of €2000, I would be behind an astute business brain like him. Far behind him, in this case.

Well at least you realise this anyway.

I mean is there really anyone out there stupid enough to think it would be wise not to pay €100 to the Council when not paying them could mean you dont get a grant of €2000 or more. I for one cant imagine there is anyone stupid enough, but sure it wont be the first time someone elses stupidity has surprised me, maybe I give people too much credit.

You are recieving 2000 euro, less the 100 that your handing over. 1900, less the property tax and water rates they intend to impliment with the information your supplying them. Less whatever other charges they are free impliment on your home with the data you supply them.

I say free because some people obviously think that they are right to stick any taxes and charges on a select few without any questions asked, answers given or opposition.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

You are recieving 2000 euro, less the 100 that your handing over. 1900, less the property tax and water rates they intend to impliment with the information your supplying them. Less whatever other charges they are free impliment on your home with the data you supply them.

I say free because some people obviously think that they are right to stick any taxes and charges on a select few without any questions asked, answers given or opposition.

Ah well whatever about property taxes, but water should be paid for its crazy that it is free. So they pay the HHC and are up 1900, not bad really.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Hijpo wrote: »

You are recieving 2000 euro, less the 100 that your handing over. 1900, less the property tax and water rates they intend to impliment with the information your supplying them. Less whatever other charges they are free impliment on your home with the data you supply them.

I say free because some people obviously think that they are right to stick any taxes and charges on a select few without any questions asked, answers given or opposition.

Ah well whatever about property taxes, but water should be paid for its crazy that it is free. So they pay the HHC and are up 1900, not bad really.

I will pay for water if the govenment gives me a grant to replumb my house so that im not flushing money down the toilet.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

I will pay for water if the govenment gives me a grant to replumb my house so that im not flushing money down the toilet.

Why would they give you a grant to replumb your house? Do such grants exist, if they do I would imagine you would have a hard time getting one seeing as you have not paid the HHC.;)

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Hijpo wrote: »

I will pay for water if the govenment gives me a grant to replumb my house so that im not flushing money down the toilet.

Why would they give you a grant to replumb your house? Do such grants exist, if they do I would imagine you would have a hard time getting one seeing as you have not paid the HHC.;)

To stop flushing fresh water down the toilet, driving up the water meter. How many other countrys use fresh water in there toilets? Have they changed building regulation to address this waste of fresh water?

Well it would another grant on a long list that i dont recieve because i either work, own a house, or am cohabiting. If you work and own a home your entitled to nothing and pay for everything.
Also just to cover lughas farcicle point of a house generating €850 lmao
we got a loan out for our house to the tune of 225000 euro, by the end of the 35 year term it will have cost us 312650 or there abouts, thats not including maintanance and upkeep.
€850 lol

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

To stop flushing fresh water down the toilet, driving up the water meter. How many other countrys use fresh water in there toilets? Have they changed building regulation to address this waste of fresh water?

Well it would another grant on a long list that i dont recieve because i either work, own a house, or am cohabiting. If you work and own a home your entitled to nothing and pay for everything.
Also just to cover lughas farcicle point of a house generating €850 lmao
we got a loan out for our house to the tune of 225000 euro, by the end of the 35 year term it will have cost us 312650 or there abouts, thats not including maintanance and upkeep.
€850 lol

I would assume some savvy plumbers will be training and figuring out ways to divert rain water to toilets so this is used to flush them rather than fresh water people pay for, I for one have already been thinking of ways to collect rain water and use it to flush my toilets and I am not a plumber.

I havent as yet thought about the possibility of the Government giving me money towards this though, maybe I just dont have the sense of entitlement others seem to have.

I would think if you want to stop flushing fresh water down your toilet that it would be up to you to sort this for yourself not the government.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Hijpo wrote: »

To stop flushing fresh water down the toilet, driving up the water meter. How many other countrys use fresh water in there toilets? Have they changed building regulation to address this waste of fresh water?

Well it would another grant on a long list that i dont recieve because i either work, own a house, or am cohabiting. If you work and own a home your entitled to nothing and pay for everything.
Also just to cover lughas farcicle point of a house generating €850 lmao
we got a loan out for our house to the tune of 225000 euro, by the end of the 35 year term it will have cost us 312650 or there abouts, thats not including maintanance and upkeep.
€850 lol

I would assume some savvy plumbers will be training and figuring out ways to divert rain water to toilets so this is used to flush them rather than fresh water people pay for, I for one have already been thinking of ways to collect rain water and use it to flush my toilets and I am not a plumber.

I havent as yet thought about the possibility of the Government giving me money towards this though, maybe I just dont have the sense of entitlement others seem to have.

I would think if you want to stop flushing fresh water down your toilet that it would be up to you to sort this for yourself not the government.

yes i have also thought of water butts etc etc but again its aditional cost to the home owner. Oh wait i could use that €850 my home generates.

I just figured if it was an environmental act instead of a money grabbing scheme they would be better suited to help people help them, after all they also expect us to pay for our own monitoring system to be placed on our house for them. Seems its a case of "help us **** you over" and not "help us to help you"

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

yes i have also thought of water butts etc etc but again its aditional cost to the home owner. Oh wait i could use that €850 my home generates.

I just figured if it was an environmental act instead of a money grabbing scheme they would be better suited to help people help them, after all they also expect us to pay for our own monitoring system to be placed on our house for them. Seems its a case of "help us **** you over" and not "help us to help you"

They may have grants of some sort who knows, could be similiar to ones for the solar panels etc. But an initial outlay could save a fortune over time, water butts and some system of diverting rain water from the gutters to a seperate tank in the attic which you use for the loos maybe for example.

Really we should be doing this already as we have more than enough rain in this country.

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

The Council are saying to the parents you give us €100 and we will pay €2000 or more for your childs third level education, I fail to see what the problem is here. The alternative is for the parents to say "no we arent paying the HHC and will therefore pay for our child to go to college", its very straight forward.

So, donal, would'nt it cut through a lot of red tape if the student just applied for the €2000, then tell them that they could deduct the €100, give the student €1900 and everyone is happy.
This method would be actually more straight forward than the above proposal.

donalg1

darkhorse wrote: »

So, donal, would'nt it cut through a lot of red tape if the student just applied for the €2000, then tell them that they could deduct the €100, give the student €1900 and everyone is happy.
This method would be actually more straight forward than the above proposal.

I am sure it would but the Council would need to be able to issue a receipt for the €100 so that the parents in future would be able to prove their tax compliance and for the purpose of the annual accounts and audit I would imagine they would need to do it in the correct manner. Bureaucracy at its best!!

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Hijpo wrote: »

yes i have also thought of water butts etc etc but again its aditional cost to the home owner. Oh wait i could use that €850 my home generates.

I just figured if it was an environmental act instead of a money grabbing scheme they would be better suited to help people help them, after all they also expect us to pay for our own monitoring system to be placed on our house for them. Seems its a case of "help us **** you over" and not "help us to help you"

They may have grants of some sort who knows, could be similiar to ones for the solar panels etc. But an initial outlay could save a fortune over time, water butts and some system of diverting rain water from the gutters to a seperate tank in the attic which you use for the loos maybe for example.

Really we should be doing this already as we have more than enough rain in this country.

I agree and i more than likely will invest in such a system, but will probably end up paying full whack. On top of the property tax, hhc and price for fitting the water meter and the water rates themselfs.

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

You think asking someone to pay for a service before providing them with it is crossing the line?

Do I take this statement to mean that we were not, at any stage, paying for any service, even before the HHC came into being. Also, if that is fact, does that mean that all the staff of the 34 councils was not getting paid a wage up until 2012.

donalg1

darkhorse wrote: »

Do I take this statement to mean that we were not, at any stage, paying for any service, even before the HHC came into being. Also, if that is fact, does that mean that all the staff of the 34 councils was not getting paid a wage up until 2012.

Ah you are but the fact the council are short of money we have to pay more for these services.

NedKinsella

Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore decide to set up a shop in Dublin.
They are just putting the finishing touches to the otherwise empty shop when an old lady pops her head in the door and asks "what are you selling in this new shop"?Annoyed Enda replies assholes. Yes adds Gilmore we are selling assholes.
The old lady replies,
" by god you are doing well , first day and only two left"

darkhorse

donalg1 wrote: »

Why would they give you a grant to replumb your house? Do such grants exist.

Why would they give you a grant to insulate your house? I know they exist, cause I know a lot of people who availed of them.