Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

darkhorse

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Thanks a mil (and very thoughtful), but my own taxes certainly cover my own share already ( a few times over).:p

donalg1 wrote: »

Ah you are but the fact the council are short of money we have to pay more for these services.

Ya see, Bish, I though that too, as I am sure a lot of people here thought it, but as donal reminds us here, they want more and more. It really don't matter to govt. what we are or are not paying. When it comes down to it, The World is not Enough.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

... says the guy who doesn't accept official figures.

Which neither of you have posted a link to yet?

Let's be honest though DV, Tipp Fm could hardly be considered official representatives for the household charge now could they?

I don't believe even 62% have paid, not for a minute.

ncdadam

Ghandee wrote: »

Which neither of you have posted a link to yet?

Let's be honest though DV, Tipp Fm could hardly be considered official representatives for the household charge now could they?

I don't believe even 62% have paid, not for a minute.

Clare FM would be better.

Bishop_Donal

Ghandee wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

Don't feed him lol.

I'll just remind you that to fully eliminate our current budget deficit (and making no provision for repayment of any Bank debt) we need an adjustment of avg Eur8k - Eur10k per house in this country (be it tax increases and / or expenditure cuts). It's a bit scary, isn't it?

Maybe looking for Eur1k from property tax isn't ambitious enough. You can see where the IMF are coming from when they tell the govt what they need to do.

I'll guarantee you that over the next few years it will reach an avg of cEur1k per house (and it's badly needed)

tayto lover

Ghandee wrote: »

Which neither of you have posted a link to yet?

Let's be honest though DV, Tipp Fm could hardly be considered official representatives for the household charge now could they?

I don't believe even 62% have paid, not for a minute.

The numbers are so low they stopped giving out figures ages ago.

Ghandee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I'll just remind you that to fully eliminate our current budget deficit (and making no provision for repayment of any Bank debt) we need an adjustment of avg Eur8k - Eur10k per house in this country (be it tax increases and / or expenditure cuts). It's a bit scary, isn't it?

Maybe looking for Eur1k from property tax isn't ambitious enough. You can see where the IMF are coming from when they tell the govt what they need to do.

I'll guarantee you that over the next few years it will reach an avg of cEur1k per house (and it's badly needed)

I've been guaranteeing that it would hit that within a few years if it sees the light off day from the start bishop!

I'm sorry to break the bad news to you, but the reality is most middle class, hard working, (up to now law abiding) families do not have that kind of money. This is evident by the widespread civil disobedience shown by the refusal of so many to register for the charge.

That post has probably convinced about 50-100 people in the unsure camp not to register now lol.

You're doing more harm than good there Bishop.

ncdadam

I'd say FG are really hoping we get back to the bond markets proper as soon as possible. Then we can give the troika their marching orders and this sorry farce can be brought to it's sorry end.
In another couple of years, on the way to the next GE, enda will be telling us how immoral it is to tax someones home.
FG will do anything to be in power on the centenary of 1916.

Bishop_Donal

Ghandee wrote: »

I've been guaranteeing that it would hit that within a few years if it sees the light off day from the start bishop!

I'm sorry to break the bad news to you, but the reality is most middle class, hard working, (up to now law abiding) families do not have that kind of money. This is evident by the widespread civil disobedience shown by the refusal of so many to register for the charge.

That post has probably convinced about 50-100 people in the unsure camp not to register now lol.

You're doing more harm than good there Bishop.

Ghandee, There is no such thing as an unsure camp at this stage.

There is a camp who respect the law of the land and have complied with their obligations.

Equally there is a camp who have not.

Our enforcement agencies must decide how to deal with the second camp. It's not up to me or anybody else to 'convince them' to adhere to the law.

Ghandee

ncdadam wrote: »

I'd say FG are really hoping we get back to the bond markets proper as soon as possible. Then we can give the troika their marching orders and this sorry farce can be brought to it's sorry end.
In another couple of years, on the way to the next GE, enda will be telling us how immoral it is to tax someones home.
FG will do anything to be in power on the centenary of 1916.

I've bad news for enda too.

Post budget, I think he may be ex-FG leader.

Their will be anger on the streets, the failure of the reform minister yesterday is only the beginning.

Ghandee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Ghandee, There is no such thing as an unsure camp at this stage.

There is a camp who respect the law of the land and have complied with their obligations.

Equally there is a camp who have not.

Our enforcement agencies must decide how to deal with the second camp. It's not up to me or anybody else to 'convince them' to adhere to the law.

This is where you and I differ.

There is no obligation, legal our moral for the ordinary men and women, and indeed our children, and our childrens children to pay these debts back, they weren't ran up by us, why should they be repaid by us?

ncdadam

Ghandee wrote: »

I've bad news for enda too.

Post budget, I think he may be ex-FG leader.

Their will be anger on the streets, the failure of the reform minister yesterday is only the beginning.

You know what's really annoying about this crowd, it's either FF fault, the troika's fault or the CPA's fault.
18 months in power and the **** up's and mistakes are coming thick and fast.
They're not fit to govern, it's as simple as that. A good government would bring the people with them, this lot do their best to alienate every section of society.

darkhorse

tayto lover wrote: »

Aren't Fine Gael / Labour doing a great job of sorting out the mess our country is in? It wasn't them who made the shambles of this country.
They just sat on their hands for 10 years in silent opposition and allowed it to happen. No it's not their fault at all. They even cried out at times that F.F. were not giving out enough in the budgets.

Changed days now when they got into power but they don't like to be reminded of their idle past. In fact come to think of it I can't really see any difference in either party. One chose to punish us by over-feeding us and the other by starving us. Death by 1,000 cuts.

But they are quick to remind FF and SF about their past at every opportunity.

Bishop_Donal

Ghandee wrote: »

This is where you and I differ.

There is no obligation, legal our moral for the ordinary men and women, and indeed our children, and our childrens children to pay these debts back, they weren't ran up by us, why should they be repaid by us?

I've never advocated repaying debt that we didn't accrue.

I only suggest we need to cover our day to day running costs. We aren't even nearly doing that.

This country has not yet repaid one red cent of the Bank debt that has been accrued. All we have done is taken ECB money and used that to pay bondholders.

ncdadam

Right, the filth game is nearly over, so dv's son will be back online soon. Night all.

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

In a thread with more than the average number of dumb posts, this is one of the dumbest.

Then I suggest you read post 8028.

lugha

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

This country has not yet repaid one red cent of the Bank debt that has been accrued. All we have done is taken ECB money and used that to pay bondholders.

This reality and the fact that our immediate problem (with the emphasis on OUR) is our deficit has been pointed out dozens of times at this stage, yet you can be sure a page won't go by without some one coming out with the dross that all these adjustments are to "pay off bondholders"

Now it is possible that they are all trolling or maybe are very, very, very slow learners but I doubt it. I suspect that they simply can't face the reality that we have a deficit that equates to of the order of €10K per worker (NOT per household), which is about 20 property taxes!

Unfortunately, Egyptian rivers will do nothing to solve our problems. So the refrain will go on. If big Phil would f**k right off and the Troika would do likewise, our problems will vanish.

I wonder what, if anything, you could do to get them to engage in even a little reality?

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

If you are still doubtful I suggest you burn your house down or otherwise make your house uninhabitable. The €850 or so you would have to find every month to rent a new home for your family, that’s the revenue stream that you are unable to see. :pac:
/QUOTE]

Let us just look at this statement. Are you telling me that if I got a LA house, that I would be paying the above mentioned figure? I doubt that very much.

lugha

darkhorse wrote: »

Let us just look at this statement. Are you telling me that if I got a LA house, that I would be paying the above mentioned figure? I doubt that very much.

€850 is ball park average rent for a 3 bedroom semi. You may pay more or less depending on what you rent and where. But of course you don't have to pay rent because you have a house.

Why you can't quite see that one of the advantages (which can be measured in a euro amount) of having your own house is that you do not pay rent, an out-going that otherwise you would have to pay, is to put it very mildly, puzzling. I would have though it is kind of obvious?

Bishop_Donal

lugha wrote: »

This reality and the fact that our immediate problem (with the emphasis on OUR) is our deficit has been pointed out dozens of times at this stage, yet you can be sure a page won't go by without some one coming out with the dross that all these adjustments are to "pay off bondholders"

Now it is possible that they are all trolling or maybe are very, very, very slow learners but I doubt it. I suspect that they simply can't face the reality that we have a deficit that equates to of the order of €10K per worker (NOT per household), which is about 20 property taxes!

Unfortunately, Egyptian rivers will do nothing to solve our problems. So the refrain will go on. If big Phil would f**k right off and the Troika would do likewise, our problems will vanish.

I wonder what, if anything, you could do to get them to engage in even a little reality?

A wonderful articulation of the thoughts that go through my head everytime I'm on this damn thing!!

I suppose you can only take some satisfaction that the discussion is gradually turning around to 'middle class households can't afford to pay this' from the original bullsh1te of 'my home is my castle and I'm not paying a household charge or property tax because owning unencumbered bricks and mortar is my greatest aspiration'

We are gradually heading into a discussion of 'who should close the deficict?' and of course the answer from the 'Anti Household campaigners' will be: "Anybody except me. I want to preserve my standard of living at any cost. I'll gladly see the country sink rather than pay my share."

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

The idea that the government could prevent the courts from sending someone to jail no matter how far they go in refusing to pay this charge displays a complete lack of understanding about how our system works.

Do ya mean that the government can only work it in reverse, ie. to let people out before their sentence is up. I suppose that they would have to make room for charge evaders and the only way to make room is to let a few people out. Makes sense I suppose.

NedKinsella

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I'll just remind you that to fully eliminate our current budget deficit (and making no provision for repayment of any Bank debt) we need an adjustment of avg Eur8k - Eur10k per house in this country (be it tax increases and / or expenditure cuts). It's a bit scary, isn't it?

Maybe looking for Eur1k from property tax isn't ambitious enough. You can see where the IMF are coming from when they tell the govt what they need to do.

I'll guarantee you that over the next few years it will reach an avg of cEur1k per house (and it's badly needed)

Why should any taxpayer pay a further €1000 on top of all the taxes we pay already when the government refuses to tax real wealth and make no nistake there is real wealth in this country not ot mention what has been stashed abroad. Some people are paid obscene amounts and bonuses which far exceed what anybody needs and should be taxed accordingly. Some people are sitting on considerable wealth in this country and could be tapped for extra taxation without causing any hardship. why are the paye taxpayers targeted for everything? Knocking public servants is a very negative aspect of this argument. All workers are in this together and should unite and fight.

darkhorse

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

He was busy with the tidy towns competition for the last few weeks. The HHC has really improved the look of a lot of our rural population centres.

He'll be busy for the next while getting ready for his promotion to the position of Ireland's next European Commissioner.

Yeah, there was never a tidy town in this country til the HHC came in.
Also, he has'nt made a big enough mistake to merit promotion

---

yet.

Slick50

lugha wrote: »

A few things here.

As the state does indeed provide housing, does that not rather knock the legs out from under your argument that a property tax might render someone homeless? Even if the tax did lead them to lose their home, which I doubt, it would not leave them without a home.

The state forcing someone out of their home only to re-house them doesn't make sense to me. To allow the government to put themselves in the position to do that is dangerous. The only reason for them to want to be in that position is intimidation, puting your house at risk.

The state forcing you out of the home you have lived in and rearing/reared your family in, only to relocate you god knows where, is not a power they should be permitted to give themselves.

lugha wrote: »

Second, could not the same argument be made for income tax? A substantial increase in this tax might well move some who are currently struggling to pay their mortgage to a position where they simply have to default, which could lead to their house being repossessed by the lender. Does this not render income tax also immoral, albeit indirectly?

With income tax, at least you have to have an income. (Why are the government so reluctant to increase income tax on higher earners?) There probably are people who can't afford any further deductions from their pay, but that apparently doesn't exempt them from the HHC/property tax. So I would regard income tax to be the lesser of the two evils.

Also, what about a rertired couple, who have worked all their lives, paid all their taxes/dues, and finished paying for their house. All of a sudden, at the stroke of a pen, they now find themselves owing money on their home again.

lugha wrote: »

And you seem to have a very draconian sort of property tax in mind here. An option for those who cannot pay would be to attach these tax liabilities to the property, which could be discharged as a future data.

The only property tax I have in mind is none. I don't trust any government enough to depend on their discretion to treat the great unwashed fairly.

lugha wrote: »

But I get the impression from those who put out the immoral line that it is not these extreme cases that inform their view. They suggest it is immoral in principle, even for those who would have no difficulty in paying.

Yes, I think so too. If it is immoral, it is immoral. If someone can afford to contribute more, it doesn't have to be related to their home.

lugha wrote: »

Were the legislation for a property tax to stipulate that people who could not pay could not be evicted from their homes, which I think it should, I don’t think that would placate those who think this tax is immoral.

It wouldn't placate me either. What's to stop them from changing the legislation later, when they find that too many are being exempted, and it is "costing too much"?

The best way to prevent that situation arising is to stop it getting to that stage. Nip it in the bud.

lugha wrote: »

Any the many difficult measures that will have to be taken in the next 10-15 years or longer, will hit some (probably many) people very hard. Some will have to compromise on things as important as shelter, like home heating or their children’s health or education or possible even food. I don’t see why such measures are more moral than a tax on a home.

There will undoubtedly be plenty of unpallatable measures in the foreseeable future. That does not mean we should allow the government to put our homes on the line.

darkhorse

Ghandee wrote: »

He made a right balls up of the hhc, shambles from start to finish, passport scandal, refusal to take a wage cut (due to his personal circumstances), controversy over his soft mortgage terms with fingers, AND refused to pay hits service charge on his Vila but, despite all that, and in true PS/CS of Ireland fashion, he gets promoted?


Have the gov not embarrassed themselves with that imbecile enough without sending him over there to make a complete show of the nation?

Can you not see the bigger picture. Its a plan by the irish govt. to take over europe.:)

Jellicoe

Where's Fiasco Phil hiding these days ?
The seem to have told him to lie very low and stay away from the media
Also where's the big campaign gone to make us pay the HHC ?

dxhound2005

Jellicoe wrote: »

Where's Fiasco Phil hiding these days ?
The seem to have told him to lie very low and stay away from the media
Also where's the big campaign gone to make us pay the HHC ?

He was in the Dail yesterday speaking about the HHC, some media reported it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0919/1224324160693.html

darkhorse

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Isn't it amazing how righteous some people get when they think others are (even) attempting to break the law? Yet they have no difficulty advocating the same!!:D

Just in case that ya did'nt twig what the difference was, let me explain.
All the people who did not pay the HHC, did not pay on a point of principle.

The councils that linked payment of the education grant for students to the non-payment of HHC, well, they wanted to punish students for their parents decision. Unjust? I think so.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

He was in the Dail yesterday speaking about the HHC, some media reported it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0919/1224324160693.html

The media can have pretty selective reporting.

RTE are yet to produce a report about yet another FG party member whose 'defaulted'.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0906/ireland/fg-councillor-owes-81k-to-revenue-over-properties-206607.html

he leader of Fine Gael on the country’s largest local authority said he was "working on a repayments process" with Revenue after his business got into difficulties.

Michael Hegarty, a long-serving member of Cork County Council, owes the Revenue’s collector general €81,823.

He made the comment after his details appeared in Stubbs Gazette.

Cllr Hegarty, from Ladysbridge in East Cork, said his property management services company had encountered difficulties.

"I was basically running an auctioneers’ business and I, like many other people, had invested in a few properties," he said yesterday.

You're pretty opinionated about all things tax related, you've posted many a link naming and shaming members of the public who defaulted/evaded tax DX.

Opinion on this please?

He should be thrown out of the party I presume?
Maybe serve a bit of time?

dxhound2005

darkhorse wrote: »

Just in case that ya did'nt twig what the difference was, let me explain.
All the people who did not pay the HHC, did not pay on a point of principle.

The councils that linked payment of the education grant for students to the non-payment of HHC, well, they wanted to punish students for their parents decision. Unjust? I think so.

How do the authorities go about collecting the charge? Are they entitled to write to people asking them to pay? According to some people that is bullying and intimidation. What do you think yourself?

tayto lover

lugha wrote: »

€850 is ball park average rent for a 3 bedroom semi. You may pay more or less depending on what you rent and where. But of course you don't have to pay rent because you have a house.

Why you can't quite see that one of the advantages (which can be measured in a euro amount) of having your own house is that you do not pay rent, an out-going that otherwise you would have to pay, is to put it very mildly, puzzling. I would have though it is kind of obvious?

So by actually providing myself with a house I am saving the Government the problem of having to house me and therefore the money they would have had to pay to house me. Does that mean they owe me money so?