Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Hijpo

Ghandee wrote: »

lugha wrote: »

For some of us it would be as revealing as a "Bear sh*ts in wood" finding, but for those who peddle the nonsense that our budget adjustments are all to bail out the banks .....



Full report

You see this large deficit?

It's down to ordinary hard working home owners I presume?

Hence why it's us they're asking to finance it?

Candy from a baby.
If enda were to scrap the CPA would that effect the payments he, or any other spoofers, get from his 4 years in a classroom?

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

... because it has no relevance to the independence of the DPP.

The DPP has no role in small summary cases like non-payment of HHC.

tayto lover

bgrizzley wrote: »

Wonder who is gonna take over Environment...

With our luck they'll swap Reilly and Big Phil and really fcuk it all up

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

Looks like anyone who thought that the HHC cheats would be left alone was seriously mistaken

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taxman-told-to-hunt-down-household-charge-dodgers-3235817.html

Not such a good week after all.

The overall body in charge of coordinating the collection of the household
charge, the Local Government Management Agency, last night said it did not have
a database which "definitively" identified households which refused to pay, and
that it would not be seeking companies to build one.





Data matching work was being carried out using "internal resources", a
spokesman said.

The second last week before the march 31st deadline, I remember Paul Mcsweeny om RTE six news saying if you don,t pay we will find you, we are going through esb bills/gas bills if you re not on out database we will be writing to you, if you still didn,t register we will take you to court-now six months later he doesn,t have a database to Identify people.

A third batch of payment reminder letters is due to go out to those already
identified, but hundreds of thousands of homeowners are likely to escape.

Sounds familair.

HUNDREDS
of people are likely to escape the tax on second homes after the authorities
admitted it is too expensive and time consuming to pursue those who have refused
to pay it.


The Department of the Environment admitted resources were not available to pinpoint the identities of those dodging the €200-a-year non-principal private residence (NPPR) charge.


A
spokesman said it would be a costly and time-consuming task to correlate
information from land registry records -- a task beyond the capabilities of most
cash-strapped county councils.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hundreds-escape-secondhome-tax-2913935.html

One would of thought with a signifigant % not after registering and paying the second home tax, they would of called in Revenue to chase arrears and bring people to court, strange to date they haven,t identified most people not paying the second home tax and brought forward court cases.

Sources said passing collection to Revenue would mean a bigger pool of
information would be available to identify people who refused to pay.






Revenue has access to more than 40 different sources of financial
information,

The scaremongering is alive and well in government.

"They're going to get Revenue to collect it" - what about those who don't qualify for TRS credits on their property? There are thousands.

"They're going to use the ESB database to track you down" - again there are thousands of people renting who are in the ESB database.

"They're going to use the Land Registry records to find out who is listed on the deeds of each house" - if this was ever a runner, it would've been their first port of call. Someone I know who works in the council told me The Land Registry records are so incomplete and incorrect, they could never be used to trace property owners.
Even if Revenue do Identify people and write to them and most people Ignore the warning letters-cuz the Indo reported last month most people Ignored the household tax warning letters-what happens then ? will Revenue try deduct the household tax arrears at source from people ?

dvpower

@Am Chile

Please feel free to ignore any tax demands that Revenue send you.
I'm sure it'll all work out OK :eek:

noddyone2

ncdadam wrote: »

People are beginning to see exactly what's happening in this country.
We seen howlin's 'attempt' to claw back on allowances fail completely and people are seeing how their money is being squandered.
They won't put up with it for much longer.

They will put up with it. Sheep take everything thrown at them.

dvpower

noddyone2 wrote: »

They will put up with it. Sheep take everything thrown at them.

But sure all you have to do to protest the property tax is to stay in your field eating your grass.
Isn't that the line?

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

@Am Chile

Please feel free to ignore any tax demands that Revenue send you.
I'm sure it'll all work out OK :eek:

Last time there was a residential property tax .

Self-assessment was therefore all well and good for taxing city dwellers who
moved home perhaps two to four times in their lifetimes. For city dwellers, the
fact that there were ongoing sales of identical homes in the vicinity (say in
estates where all houses are much the same) meant that there were always
similar sales to compare with even if you somehow managed to stay living in
your home for long periods.





In rural areas, however, the property taxman found that living habits and
property types made collecting the tax difficult. For one thing, country
dwellers don't tend to live in multiple residences over the periods of their
lifetimes. They build a house on family land and extend and alter it where need
be. They stay put. Hence under the last property tax regime, there were few
sales in country areas at which point the property taxman could claw back his
cash.

As some people never move house and won,t be moving house for the next 12 years-whatever late penalty/Interest fees won,t be worth a dam as some people won,t be moving house in the next 12 year period-once those 12 years pass any late Interest/penalty fees will no longer apply-so it begs the question what will Revenue do to get the money from those with no Intention of moving house in the next 12 years ? will they try deduct at source ? if not how will they try claim the money ?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/mark-keenan-selfassessment-may-land-city-dwellers-with-bulk-of-house-tax-3228743.html

dvpower

Am Chile wrote: »

As some people never move house and won,t be moving house for the next 12 years-whatever late penalty/Interest fees won,t be worth a dam as some people won,t be moving house in the next 12 year period-once those 12 years pass any late Interest/penalty fees will no longer apply-so it begs the question what will Revenue do to get the money from those with no Intention of moving house in the next 12 years ? will they try deduct at source ? if not how will they try claim the money ?

I don't think you quite understand this whole 12 years thing.

If the manage to go completely undetected for 12 years and you don't try to sell your house, then you may well get away with year 1 of the HHC.

But if the Revenue raise an assessment against you then that whole get out of jail free card is worthless.

ncdadam

dvpower wrote: »

Looks like anyone who thought that the HHC cheats would be left alone was seriously mistaken

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taxman-told-to-hunt-down-household-charge-dodgers-3235817.html

Not such a good week after all.

You must be so happy.
We've beaten big phil, the DOE and the LA's.
Now for the revenue.

dvpower

ncdadam wrote: »

You must be so happy.
We've beaten big phil, the DOE and the LA's.
Now for the revenue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6VTci1Bunk

Jellicoe

dvpower wrote: »

Looks like anyone who thought that the HHC cheats would be left alone was seriously mistaken

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taxman-told-to-hunt-down-household-charge-dodgers-3235817.html

Not such a good week after all.

Class, like Thatcher and her Poll Tax, they've fcked themselves now. The house of cards is coming down.

Lorgach

NedKinsella wrote: »

It seems to be taking a hell of a long time. People need to wake up before its too late. Its not just our generation rhat is being sold out. Our kids and probably grand kids will pay for this.

As long as people accept any new tax that our Politicall Employees decide to bestow on us then it is true that our children and their children will continue to have to pay them. I have read and heard people saying that they are paying the Home Tax because they do not want to burden their children with having to continue paying off the Bond Holders and such. Do they not realize that this is exactly what they are doing by paying these unjustifiable taxes that will continue long after the economy has stabilized. It would be far better if our Political Employees came clean and introduced an Austerity Tax perhaps linked to GMP or some other appropriate indicator that would vary, reduce and eventually finish as things get back to normal.

Am Chile

dvpower wrote: »

I don't think you quite understand this whole 12 years thing.

If the manage to go completely undetected for 12 years and you don't try to sell your house, then you may well get away with year 1 of the HHC.

But if the Revenue raise an assessment against you then that whole get out of jail free card is worthless.

One of the first things some people did was get legal advice last year to weigh up what they might try to do in court-the 12 year limit-statue of limitations-we keep hearing by some people- they will bring you to court if convicted they will impose a €2.500 fine against you, if you still don,t register they will impose a €100 fine every day you still don,t register-we keep hearing all the fines/penalties/Interest becomes a Judgement against a property so you can,t sell or transfer your property unless all fees are paid-does this Judgement apply forever ? No it doesn,t

(6) (a) An action shall not be brought upon a judgment after the expiration of twelve years from the date on which the judgment became enforceable.
(b) No arrears of interest in respect of any judgment debt shall be recovered after the expiration of six years from the date on which the interest became due.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1957/en/act/pub/0006/sec0011.html

ilovesleep

Is there anyone reading this from the Aran Islands? Or have contacts out in the Aran Islands? Or visits the Aran Islands regularly?

How is life out in the Aran Islands?
Does the council do much work out there on the islands?

I'm guessing the council does very little because they'd have to travel from the mainland. I'm guessing any work that has to be done will be done more as a community than relying on the council to do anything.
Of course I could be wrong but I'm eager to learn what life is like in the Aran Islands?

How do people on the islands feel about the HHC?

Am Chile

What happens when some people believe the spin that the household charge is just two euro a week and people should pay it- All they did was pay money for the privilege of signing up for the real tax coming your way soon-only this time there will no need for any calls for a boycott-as people simply won,t be able to afford the money-some people who paid beleiving its only two euro per week will regret paying when the chickens come out to roost.

THOUSANDS
of families in commuter belt areas are likely to be paying property taxes of
more than €1,000 a year.


Many
residents in places such as Greystones, Co Wicklow, and Straffan in Co Kildare
-- where prices are at Dublin levels -- will be faced with bills of €85 a month
or more.


Owners
of four-bedroom homes in Straffan, where the exclusive K Club is located, can
expect to fork out around €1,156, while a similar sized property in Greystones
would incur a levy of €1,139.


The
figures are based on data produced by property website Daft, which analysed
average residential asking prices across the country in the second quarter of
the year.

http://www.herald.ie/news/families-forced-to-tighten-their-commuter-belts-3235971.html

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

So you know for a fact that: If you didn't e own a house the LA will put you up for €30 a week. based on the fact that you once rented a place to the council for the same price and you know some people who average at that rent!

I don't think you're trolling - I think its way worse than that.


Edit: I can understand why, as a landlord, you might be against property taxes. A big huge vested interest.

I cant seem to move on from this post. When you say what you said above,(see underlined) are you implying that he does'nt know what he is talking about. If you are, then do you mean that there are LAs out there that charge a fairly big rent. Now, I am not being sarcastic or smart with you, but it is just that I know a good few people, including my daughter, also my wife's sister and a niece of hers, who live in LA housing in the small town that I live in, so I would know what kind of rent some of them pay. I would be very interested to know, what, in your own opinion, would be an average price of rent in LA housing where you are, if you happen to know.

lugha

Lorgach wrote: »

Do they not realize that this is exactly what they are doing by paying these unjustifiable taxes ...

Do you say all new taxes are unjustifiable, or just the property one?

Lorgach wrote: »

…. that will continue long after the economy has stabilized.

I don’t think there is any pretence that a property tax is a temporary measure. Certainly, it wouldn’t have manifested itself were it not for our current crisis but a property tax, as an integral part of our taxation structures is sensible, crisis or no. You only have to look at the devastating consequences of the collapse in revenue that resulted from our over-dependency on construction to appreciate that the advantages of more reliable robust tax income streams.

Well some of us can see this!

Granted a future populist political party might buy an election by repealing a property tax, but as of now, the plan is that a property tax is for keeps.

Lorgach wrote: »

It would be far better if our Political Employees came clean and introduced an Austerity Tax perhaps linked to GMP or some other appropriate indicator that
would vary, reduce and eventually finish as things get back to normal.

First, that is hardly necessary. It is not as if the measures we are taking might go to far and leave us with a budget surplus! And secondly, even if you did somehow index link the total take of new taxes you would still have devise a mechanism to implement, for each tax, such as the property one, to determine who would pay and how much. Which leaves us pretty much where we are at present.

lugha

Am Chile wrote: »

What happens when some people believe the spin that the household charge is just two euro a week and people should pay it- All they did was pay money for the privilege of signing up for the real tax coming your way soon-only this time there will no need for any calls for a boycott-as people simply won,t be able to afford the money-some people who paid beleiving its only two euro per week will regret paying when the chickens come out to roost.

The people can not, not afford to pay! If it not via a property tax (which would only be a fraction of what is required) it will be some other taxes.

And if a popular rebellion defeats any new taxes then the adjustment will come via massive cuts in public spending, SW and PS wage cuts, including redundancies, which of course will have devastating repercussions on many private sector workers.
Though a remarkable high number of them, who are calling for such measures, seem not to be particularly careful about what they wish for!

To argue that people just cannot afford to pay would be akin to a newly made redundant person insisting that he cannot pay his mortgage / raise his family etc. if his income is adjusted from his employee wage to a social welfare payment. You might sympathise with his plight and appreciate the enormity of the challenge facing him, but ultimately the reality is that he has no choice but to make the adjustment. Affording it or not affording it is just not a factor.

Similarly we as a nation have no choice with but to make an adjustment (and one, BTW, that is not that far removed in terms of impact from that on someone made redundant). Our only “choice” is about who amongst our number, makes how much of a contribution. And I do not see any suite of measures that we might implement that will not have a massive impact on some or many, if not all, ordinary people.

If you dispute this then you simply do not appreciate how big a problem we have. If the property tax is defeated, can you offer any argument as to why we, as a nation, will be better off in the medium or long term? To me, it is obvious that we will just have dug the hole we are in that bit deeper.

Hijpo

darkhorse wrote: »

dvpower wrote: »

So you know for a fact that: If you didn't e own a house the LA will put you up for €30 a week. based on the fact that you once rented a place to the council for the same price and you know some people who average at that rent!

I don't think you're trolling - I think its way worse than that.


Edit: I can understand why, as a landlord, you might be against property taxes. A big huge vested interest.

I cant seem to move on from this post. When you say what you said above,(see underlined) are you implying that he does'nt know what he is talking about. If you are, then do you mean that there are LAs out there that charge a fairly big rent. Now, I am not being sarcastic or smart with you, but it is just that I know a good few people, including my daughter, also my wife's sister and a niece of hers, who live in LA housing in the small town that I live in, so I would know what kind of rent some of them pay. I would be very interested to know, what, in your own opinion, would be an average price of rent in LA housing where you are, if you happen to know.

I was working with a chap that lived in LA housing and he was saying that id want to get meself into a council house. Ye get everything done for free and the rent is f*** all. Then we went on to tell me how he got all his windows replaced with double glazing and a new boiler put in for nothing. Im not saying its all true im just telling you what i been told. Id hate to think what it would cost me to do all that.
If renting from the council was more expensive than paying a mortgage (as some suggest) then there is no way he would be renting and there is certainly no way he would be advising others to get themselfs into a council house either.

GEasy

100 quid? Sure that's nothing!

dvpower

darkhorse wrote: »

I cant seem to move on from this post. When you say what you said above,(see underlined) are you implying that he does'nt know what he is talking about. If you are, then do you mean that there are LAs out there that charge a fairly big rent. Now, I am not being sarcastic or smart with you, but it is just that I know a good few people, including my daughter, also my wife's sister and a niece of hers, who live in LA housing in the small town that I live in, so I would know what kind of rent some of them pay. I would be very interested to know, what, in your own opinion, would be an average price of rent in LA housing where you are, if you happen to know.

what I was getting at is:
a) the idea that "If you didn't e own a house the LA will put you up" is just wrong. Most people who don't own a house don't get LA housing. They provide their own housing in the rental market. It is very difficult to get LA housing, but the post implies that its automatic for non home owners.

b) the €30 per week rent, while not unheard of, is not usual. Local Authorities set rents based on means, so if a LA tenant relies fully on social welfare, then they might be paying this rent, but it isn't what the standard rent is, as was implied by the post.

I should add - to have council housing is fantastic for those who are lucky enough. They do have cheap rent, a good landlord that will keep the property well maintained and great security of tenure. I think they should be made to contribute more; the property tax pushers up the cost of housing generally and LA tenants shouldn't be immune from that.

dxhound2005

Hijpo wrote: »

I was working with a chap that lived in LA housing and he was saying that id want to get meself into a council house. Ye get everything done for free and the rent is f*** all. Then we went on to tell me how he got all his windows replaced with double glazing and a new boiler put in for nothing. Im not saying its all true im just telling you what i been told. Id hate to think what it would cost me to do all that.
If renting from the council was more expensive than paying a mortgage (as some suggest) then there is no way he would be renting and there is certainly no way he would be advising others to get themselfs into a council house either.

There are grants available to private home owners to install new boilers and carry out other works to improve energy efficiency in their houses. But even without doing that some people could save themselves money by not running central heating at excessive temperatures or in rooms where it is not required for example.

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Better_energy_homes/homeowner/

Coupled with a more sensible approach to food waste (average household throws away perfectly edible food worth hundreds of euros every year) this would result in significant savings for some people.

Plenty of comments on the threads from private home owners contemplating moving to public housing. I wonder how many have actually made the move.

El Weirdo

Poll reset.

ncdadam

dvpower wrote: »

what I was getting at is:
a) the idea that "If you didn't e own a house the LA will put you up" is just wrong. Most people who don't own a house don't get LA housing. They provide their own housing in the rental market. It is very difficult to get LA housing, but the post implies that its automatic for non home owners.

b) the €30 per week rent, while not unheard of, is not usual. Local Authorities set rents based on means, so if a LA tenant relies fully on social welfare, then they might be paying this rent, but it isn't what the standard rent is, as was implied by the post.

I should add - to have council housing is fantastic for those who are lucky enough. They do have cheap rent, a good landlord that will keep the property well maintained and great security of tenure. I think they should be made to contribute more; the property tax pushers up the cost of housing generally and LA tenants shouldn't be immune from that.

I'm relaying what I know from from personal experience.
I also know another guy who is married with 2 kids, getting €450 a week on the dole and whatever other 'perks' are available to him.
He is in a 5 year old council house and pays €150 per month.
Why dv, do you think these people should not be liable for the property tax?

ncdadam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Plenty of comments on the threads from private home owners contemplating moving to public housing. I wonder how many have actually made the move.

The only thing about that would be having to live beside neighbours who believe that the state is responsible for housing them.
It's a different mindset than mine so I'll be staying where I am.
It might suit people who work in the PS though.

donalg1

darkhorse wrote: »

dvpower wrote: »

So you know for a fact that: If you didn't e own a house the LA will put you up for €30 a week. based on the fact that you once rented a place to the council for the same price and you know some people who average at that rent!

I don't think you're trolling - I think its way worse than that.


Edit: I can understand why, as a landlord, you might be against property taxes. A big huge vested interest.

I cant seem to move on from this post. When you say what you said above,(see underlined) are you implying that he does'nt know what he is talking about. If you are, then do you mean that there are LAs out there that charge a fairly big rent. Now, I am not being sarcastic or smart with you, but it is just that I know a good few people, including my daughter, also my wife's sister and a niece of hers, who live in LA housing in the small town that I live in, so I would know what kind of rent some of them pay. I would be very interested to know, what, in your own opinion, would be an average price of rent in LA housing where you are, if you happen to know.

Rent in a council house is based on income and nationally it works out at about 20% of your income which isn't bad at all considering most mortgages would be far above this percentage

ncdadam

donalg1 wrote: »

Rent in a council house is based on income and nationally it works out at about 20% of your income which isn't bad at all considering most mortgages would be far above this percentage

Source?
Actually donal, do you think then that people who can avail of this really cheap housing should be paying a HHC/property tax?

Hijpo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are grants available to private home owners to install new boilers and carry out other works to improve energy efficiency in their houses. But even without doing that some people could save themselves money by not running central heating at excessive temperatures or in rooms where it is not required for example.

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Better_energy_homes/homeowner/

Coupled with a more sensible approach to food waste (average household throws away perfectly edible food worth hundreds of euros every year) this would result in significant savings for some people.

Plenty of comments on the threads from private home owners contemplating moving to public housing. I wonder how many have actually made the move.

Where do i apply for the grant to get my house painted, leaks fixed, locks on doors repaired, foot path filled, wall replasterd, door hung, dodgy light rewired etc etc etc

"The incentive is in the form of a Cash Grant. Cash grants are fixed, irrespective of home size, though where actual expenditure is lower than the grant value only the lower amount will be paid. Payment is by Electronic Funds Transfer to the applicant’s bank. "

Is that the expenditure thats calculated by chopping off the biggest part of the mortgage to leave the interest or cost of the mortgage which will obviously be smaller to suit an idiot??

darkhorse

dvpower wrote: »

what I was getting at is:
a) the idea that "If you didn't e own a house the LA will put you up" is just wrong. Most people who don't own a house don't get LA housing. They provide their own housing in the rental market. It is very difficult to get LA housing, but the post implies that its automatic for non home owners.

b) the €30 per week rent, while not unheard of, is not usual. Local Authorities set rents based on means, so if a LA tenant relies fully on social welfare, then they might be paying this rent, but it isn't what the standard rent is, as was implied by the post.

I should add - to have council housing is fantastic for those who are lucky enough. They do have cheap rent, a good landlord that will keep the property well maintained and great security of tenure. I think they should be made to contribute more; the property tax pushers up the cost of housing generally and LA tenants shouldn't be immune from that.

We all know that its not automatic to get a council house. There is a process, whereby one must register their name with the relevant council, thereby being put on a waiting list. You might be waiting a long time, or you might just be lucky and be housed within a couple of years, depending on your circumstances. Now, there is a lot of people, who while waiting on a house, I do agree, have to rent somewhere, at least the one's who would not be staying with parents or relatives(which could help speed up the waiting process). Of all the people renting, there would be a percentage of them on rent supplement allowance, which accounts to just north of half a billion euro's of the social welfare budget, which I'm sure you will agree that in this day and age is a lot of wastage, in light of the fact of all the vacant properties the government could procure for social housing, if there is a shortage(I think there is some plan to try and utilize some properties for this purpose.
The point you make about €30 for council rent not being usual, well I can't speak for any other county, but up this neck of the woods, it isnt that unusual to be paying between €30 and €50, and yes, there is a lot on social welfare, especially since the recession started.