Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Jellicoe

murphthesmurf wrote:

Being from the UK originally, I really cant see what all the fuss is about. There's been a household charge (council tax) over there for years. A lot more than what most of you are going to pay. We lived in a council house at one time, not worth anymore than about 120k sterling and paid over £900 a year paid monthly. I know this may upset a few and some may think I'm trolling, but I can't understand why the huge fuss about it. Ireland is practically the only country in western europe that doesn't pay a household charge, and for the majority will only be around 300 euro unless you have a bigger more expensive house. We didn't have to pay the 100 euro as the landlord payed it as our house is rented. When we get a 300 euro bill come next year, I shall think to myself 'bargain, 600 quid cheaper than the UK'.

Grand, but your missing one big point. We were always told the reason for all the higher taxes, stealth taxes and levies in Ireland (much more than in the UK) was because we did not have rates on houses / household etc., and these extra taxes took care of that. That’s the reason for the fuss. That and the fact that this money is going to pay for cigars for bondholders and not local services.

ncdadam

Ghandee wrote: »

I'll ask him first.

These kids you mentioned, how much did it cost you in fees in the UK for their school?
School dinners/canteen on site?
Transport to school (free school bus?)

Did the council collect your rubbish included in your council tax?

Doctors are still free in the UK?

Prescriptions from the pharmacy are how much?

Oh, and tenants/home owners are Liable for rates, (both avail of the services afterall)

We could be here all night murph..........

Jesus, you lads are quick off the mark:D

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

But in any case, I think there is still a fair chance that we will be leaving the euro anyway, hot on the heels of Greece. And as this has been seen as a real possibility for some time, it is hardly much of a lever!

Agreed. When it does happen, we will have some dumb ass govt., more than likely a lot of the one's thats here currently, say to each other over a pint in the dail bar, imagine all the money/misery we could have saved

murphthesmurf

Ghandee wrote: »

I'll ask him first.

These kids you mentioned, how much did it cost you in fees in the UK for their school?
School dinners/canteen on site?
Transport to school (free school bus?)

Did the council collect your rubbish included in your council tax?

Doctors are still free in the UK?

Prescriptions from the pharmacy are how much?

Oh, and tenants/home owners are Liable for rates, (both avail of the services afterall)

We could be here all night murph..........

Points taken, but, schools are mainly paid for by other taxes from the government, not sure about travel to rural schools, my kids went to a school a quarter mile walk. School meals are only free to parents on benefits, others have to pay. Prescription charges are paid through government taxes as are doctors. Tenants and homeowners are liable to council tax, if you are a low earner or on benefits you can claim council tax allowance and may not have to pay anything. Yes bins were emptied, but the bin men in England are the laziest people on the planet, and I mean that, for example we had a wheelie bin and it had to be positioned on the day of collection at the end of the drive with the handles facing out and the lid all the way down with nothing on top or they would not take it. One day I left it half way down the drive (about 6 feet from path) to avoid the local yobs tipping it over and the lazy %&*^s left it. The council tax was mainly intended for local services such as the local council, fire brigade, police etc. Services were constantly being cut there too inspite of this. Last I heard they were experimenting with putting micro chips in your wheelie bin so if it weighed a little too much they could bill you for it.
The main thing that should change from this it to make the fire service free. To think if you are unfortunate enough to have your house burn down and lose everything the fireman would douse the last few flames and then hand you a 600 quid bill is pure evil.

tayto lover

Ursula Halligan on Vincent Browne saying that the Labour Party is in turmoil tonight following Shorthall's resignation. "Civil war in the Labour Party". The Govt could now be on the brink of collapse.

tayto lover

Saw this on another thread -

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/02/23/gilmore-for-taoiseach-mug/

lugha

tayto lover wrote: »

Sure everyone has pockets full of money to spare right down to their ankles. Do you ever stop to think about where people will get this extra money when they are broke already. The same people being targeted all the time. Honestly !!!

You could make much the same argument on behalf of someone who was recently being made redundant. I.e. how can you possibly expect them to adjust from having a fairly good income to a social welfare level one given that he may have a hefty mortgage and personal loans and a family to raise etc etc.

You can plead as much as you want about it being simply too difficult if not impossible for him to make such an adjustment but ultimately he will have to face the reality that he simply does not have a choice but to adjust.

And much the same applies to the state. Collectively, we have to deal with the reality of a very bleak financial situation. There may be some measures we can take that won’t impact greatly on ordinary workers but they won’t be nearly enough. Ultimately, the bulk of the heavy lifting will have to be done by ordinary people.

You can complain, however legitimately, about it being too difficult an ask for many people but the reality is that we have little choice. If we refused to make a serious effort to bring our deficit under control then our lenders of last resort would give us no money, leaving us in far deeper do do than we are in.

I have asked many, many times but have had no reply, but once again: Can you offer a COMPLETE (not partial) solution to our crisis that will not impact, and impact severely, on huge numbers of ordinary people?

You can not. Because there isn’t one.

darkhorse wrote: »

Yeah, Mr Sensitivity, there is a lot of people that have difficulty paying mortgages, electricity/fuel etc, but we'el just keeping taking from them for the good of the country, whichever country the money is being sent to.

I think you missed my point rather spectacularly there.

Going Forward

The 3 official reasons being peddled in favour of a household charge:

1. We are one of the only countries without one. Not much of a reason really.

2. The Troika. True, and handy for the Govt. to hide behind.

It excuses them from even attempting to devise any innovative tax raising initiatives, one example given a couple of years ago was a 1cent tax on text messages (E50m was the sum mentioned), I'm sure there are more ideas to be found.

3. The Govt. is hamstrung by it's own foolish political promises of no income tax rises or welfare cuts.

A 1% increase across the board on income tax would raise in the region of E800m per year. Thats an amount not to be sneezed at, with a mechanism already in place to collect it.

Ghandee

tayto lover wrote: »

Ursula Halligan on Vincent Browne saying that the Labour Party is in turmoil tonight following Shorthall's resignation. "Civil war in the Labour Party". The Govt could now be on the brink of collapse.

Hijpo

Pay cuts on people starting out in the hse, if they are so adamant that they need to close the gap now then make the cuts now, were all in this together are we not? Our taoiseach said so.
I love the way lugha keeps refering to ordinary people having to foot most of the bill and make the most adjustment and ordinary people will be hit hardest. Why is it ordinary people that are being singled out here?
The ordinary people pay for the waste in this country, always have. Time for the fat cats to give something back.

lugha

Hijpo wrote: »

Why is it ordinary people that are being singled out here?

Short answer is that the vast majority of people are ordinary people.

You can look at the excessive salaries of politicians for example and slash them, but the total effect will be negligible because we only have a few hundred paid politicians, we have the bones of 2 million ordinary workers.

It's a simple numbers game.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

I think you missed my point rather spectacularly there.

No, I rather think that you keep missing my point. Maybe you genuinely do keep forgetting. I'll say it again.

There is nothing left to give.

donalg1

lugha wrote: »

Hijpo wrote: »

Why is it ordinary people that are being singled out here?

Short answer is that the vast majority of people are ordinary people.

You can look at the excessive salaries of politicians for example and slash them, but the total effect will be negligible because we only have a few hundred paid politicians, we have the bones of 2 million ordinary workers.

It's a simple numbers game.

Ah well it would be easier to ask 2 million people to take a pay cut if you take one yourself. Politicians are overpaid so when they tell us we need a pay cut it all seems a bit crazy.

Jellicoe

Going Forward wrote:

A 1% increase across the board on income tax would raise in the region of E800m per year. Thats an amount not to be sneezed at, with a mechanism already in place to collect it.

Wait . . . . that would effect private sector workers and the rich and we can't have that in Ireland.

dxhound2005

ncdadam wrote: »

Jesus, you lads are quick off the mark:D

Bit slow off the mark to respond to Murph's follow up though.

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

Hijpo wrote: »

Why is it ordinary people that are being singled out here?

Short answer is that the vast majority of people are ordinary people.

You can look at the excessive salaries of politicians for example and slash them, but the total effect will be negligible because we only have a few hundred paid politicians, we have the bones of 2 million ordinary workers.

It's a simple numbers game.

A few hundred politicians, a couple more fat cat civil servants, a load more advisors, 3 pensions for 1 politician, a couple of the lads in the seanad, over paid pen pushers in the HSE, obsurd allowances this list could go on and on so its not just the politicians. But your of the mentality that "hey its going to happen, just build a bridge and get over it. Btw while your crossing empty your pockets over the side" so there is no real point in having a debate on reform with you.

lugha

Hijpo wrote: »

A few hundred politicians, a couple more fat cat civil servants, a load more advisors, 3 pensions for 1 politician, a couple of the lads in the seanad, over paid pen pushers in the HSE, obsurd allowances this list could go on and on so its not just the politicians.

I don't argue that their salaries should not be modified. I am saying that this alone will make close to no difference and ultimately you will have place some of the burden on, well ordinary people.

Do you dispute this? Do you actually think that skinning a few fat cats is all it will take to solve our problems?

Hijpo wrote: »

But your of the mentality that "hey its going to happen, just build a bridge and get over it. Btw while your crossing empty your pockets over the side" so there is no real point in having a debate on reform with you.

I tend to accept reality, however unpalatable it might be. But if driving back the tides or tilting at windmills is your thing, go nuts!

ncdadam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Bit slow off the mark to respond to Murph's follow up though.

What, post 8945?

Did you read it yourself?

PRSI in the UK pays for free GP visits and gets you prescriptions at a maximum of £6.80.
That bit?
Or the bit regarding the council tax being paid by renters too?
That bit?
Or the bit about not paying extra for refuse collection?
That bit?
The bit about services being cut, regardless of collection of council tax, a point I've been making on here all along?
That bit?
Or the bit about having to pay €600 to call out the fire brigade being as he put it 'pure evil'?
That bit?
Maybe the bit about water meters in his original post?
That bit?

Maybe you and your pro tax buddies should read posts properly before you comment and thank them.

ncdadam

Jellicoe wrote: »

Wait . . . . that would effect private sector workers and the rich and we can't have that in Ireland.

Being a private sector worker, I would be all for a 1% increase in income tax rather than singling out one section of society to tax them for housing themselves at no cost to the exchequer.

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

I don't argue that their salaries should not be modified. I am saying that this alone will make close to no difference and ultimately you will have place some of the burden on, well ordinary people.

Do you dispute this? Do you actually think that skinning a few fat cats is all it will take to solve our problems?

No i never did, but i do dispute the fact that implementing a half arsed program for taxing property and lying about it should be first on the list when net income for families is already low. Especially when there are alot more viable means of raising income. For example, every plane that flies into irish airspace, wether they land or take off or simply pass through it, they pay it. now i dont know how many planes fly into that air space but id imagine its a fair amount as it acts as a gateway between europe and north america. Up it by 1%, airlines will not change there route that dramatically to avoid it as all they care about is using the least amount of fuel possible.

Taxing the homes of people already suffering when they have no choice but to pay this tax in inhumane, increase the tax on things people have a choice in buying/availing of.

lugha

ncdadam wrote: »

Being a private sector worker, I would be all for a 1% increase in income tax rather than singling out one section of society to tax them for housing themselves at no cost to the exchequer.

But income tax also singles out one section of society, and as it happens, those that it excludes are substantially the same as the ones who are not liable for the HHC.

Once again, the "I'm not paying because the tax is unfair" argument is exposed as bogus.

FWIW, I think there will eventually be a rise in income tax but as well as, and not instead of, a property tax.

lugha

Hijpo wrote: »

No i never did, but i do dispute the fact that implementing a half arsed program for taxing property and lying about it should be first on the list when net income for families is already low. Especially when there are alot more viable means of raising income. For example, every plane that flies into irish airspace, wether they land or take off or simply pass through it, they pay it. now i dont know how many planes fly into that air space but id imagine its a fair amount as it acts as a gateway between europe and north america. Up it by 1%, airlines will not change there route that dramatically to avoid it as all they care about is using the least amount of fuel possible.

Taxing the homes of people already suffering when they have no choice but to pay this tax in inhumane, increase the tax on things people have a choice in buying/availing of.

I think you are disputing that ordinary people will have to do some heavy lifting, though you say you are not.

We did have a travel tax. I'm not sure if it is gone but the EC certainly took a dim view of it.

And as with a lot of measures that people suggest, it is debatable if they would not cost more in lost business / tourism for example.

Also, how much would such a tax raise? Nothing in the same league as a property tax I would suggest.

dxhound2005

ncdadam wrote: »

What, post 8945?

Did you read it yourself?

PRSI in the UK pays for free GP visits and gets you prescriptions at a maximum of £6.80.
That bit?
Or the bit regarding the council tax being paid by renters too?
That bit?
Or the bit about not paying extra for refuse collection?
That bit?
The bit about services being cut, regardless of collection of council tax, a point I've been making on here all along?
That bit?
Or the bit about having to pay €600 to call out the fire brigade being as he put it 'pure evil'?
That bit?
Maybe the bit about water meters in his original post?
That bit?

Maybe you and your pro tax buddies should read posts properly before you comment and thank them.

Only 20% approx of the cost of services provided by local authorities in the UK is funded from their property tax, I have pointed that out before but it seems to get ignored.

60% approx comes from the central government out of general taxation so nothing is free. Yes they get refuse collection in England (not a very good service according to Murph) but pay for water separately, vice versa here.

ncdadam

lugha wrote: »

But income tax also singles out one section of society, and as it happens, those that it excludes are substantially the same as the ones who are not liable for the HHC.

Once again, the "I'm not paying because the tax is unfair" argument is exposed as bogus.

FWIW, I think there will eventually be a rise in income tax but as well as, and not instead of, a property tax.

What?, are you saying that the majority of people who rent are unemployed?

ncdadam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Only 20% approx of the cost of services provided by local authorities in the UK is funded from their property tax, I have pointed that out before but it seems to get ignored.

60% approx comes from the central government out of general taxation so nothing is free. Yes they get refuse collection in England (not a very good service according to Murph) but pay for water separately, vice versa here.

So you didn't read his post before you commented on it then. Fair enough.
Where do you think the majority of funding for LA's here comes from in Ireland? Fairies?
No, central taxation, just like England. Except in England they get far more for their money than we do. It's all stealth taxes here, refuse, doctors, books etc etc.
Why don't you answer the points I raised in relation to Murphs post?
You pro tax lads, can't see the wood for the trees!

Izzy Skint

lugha wrote: »

Short answer is that the vast majority of people are ordinary people.

You can look at the excessive salaries of politicians for example and slash them, but the total effect will be negligible because we only have a few hundred paid politicians, we have the bones of 2 million ordinary workers.

It's a simple numbers game.

Lugha, the politicians are only the tip of the iceberg, do you want some serious savings ?....how about this.....cut the number of td's by at least a half if not more, cut their advisor's and sundry support staff etc., abolish their expenses, abolish the seanad, cut pay and numbers in the semi-states, with over 600 quango's in existence there is serious scope for cuts there....now work your way down through the public service and cut out all the chaffe from the civil service, HSE and education, amalgamate county and city councils and group counties together to reduce numbers even further, cut a lot of the pen pushers, planners, head planners, chief engineers, regional pen pushers managers, assistant regional pen pushers , regional pen pushers directors, assistant regional pen pushers directors etc etc....what a load of ****e !!!!!
THEN !....with all who are left, cut their pay, perks, allowances and pensions.....serious savings there I think....billions, not millions if it was all added up.
Why can't something like this be done ?....
"a numbers game" you say ?....it sure is, many screwed to support a very priveledged few.

darkhorse

Hijpo wrote: »

A few hundred politicians, a couple more fat cat civil servants, a load more advisors, 3 pensions for 1 politician, a couple of the lads in the seanad, over paid pen pushers in the HSE, obsurd allowances this list could go on and on so its not just the politicians

lugha wrote: »

I don't argue that their salaries should not be modified. I am saying that this alone will make close to no difference.
QUOTE]

But it would be a start and it would also show the people of the country that this government is serious about at least starting to make a difference, instead of where they are starting. Otherwise, how can they expect to be taken serious as a government. If there were ever a definitive explanation for tunnel vision, this government sure is it.

darkhorse

Going Forward wrote: »

The 3 official reasons being peddled in favour of a household charge:

1. We are one of the only countries without one. Not much of a reason really.

2. The Troika. True, and handy for the Govt. to hide behind.

It excuses them from even attempting to devise any innovative tax raising initiatives, one example given a couple of years ago was a 1cent tax on text messages (E50m was the sum mentioned), I'm sure there are more ideas to be found.

3. The Govt. is hamstrung by it's own foolish political promises of no income tax rises or welfare cuts.

A 1% increase across the board on income tax would raise in the region of E800m per year. Thats an amount not to be sneezed at, with a mechanism already in place to collect it.

A very good post, my friend, and a very apt. nickname. It is a pity that not one person in our government could not come with a suggestion like yours, but then, I doubt that any of them could think too far beyond their expenses.

Hijpo

lugha wrote: »

I think you are disputing that ordinary people will have to do some heavy lifting, though you say you are not.

We did have a travel tax. I'm not sure if it is gone but the EC certainly took a dim view of it.

And as with a lot of measures that people suggest, it is debatable if they would not cost more in lost business / tourism for example.

Also, how much would such a tax raise? Nothing in the same league as a property tax I would suggest.

There are alot more income generating exercises that can be implemented properly before a property tax, especially a half arsed attempt a just throwing one together. If this property tax was really of any interest to them other than a money grabbing exercise they would have put plenty of thought, time and effort into it to make sure it is fair, collected properly and people can manage it, instead of the complete load of horse **** they produced.

If they upped the corporation tax rate by .5% to 13% they would still be lower than most of europe but generating a bit more income. Instead of a smash and grab on "ordinary people" up other taxes/charges in small increments on a wide àrray of things. Take a bit here and there instead of lumping it all on houses. You say its a numbers game, well there are alot more people than houses in ireland.

Im not talking about a travel tax, this is a charge for any airlines entering irish airspace as far as i can recall. So it would not effect tourism and business as flights effected dont necessarily have to land here.
Think of the ammount of planes passing over ireland each year.

ncdadam

More of our hard earned tax euro being squandered by our overpaid, under worked, bloated PS. Throwing it around like confetti in the PS.

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/20763076/?view=Standard

Workers will have to pay it back? Yea, right, good luck to them with that!