Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset

Bullseye1 · 02-10-2012 2:07pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Do you think AIB defaulting would have left us with more or less money for the disabled?

The banks should have been allowed fail while still in private ownership. The government could have covered deposits as they have.

Chips Lovell · 02-10-2012 2:13pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The government could have covered deposits as they have.

What do you think the cost of covering deposits alone would have been?

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 2:19pm

Dickerty wrote: »

Every mis-step in repaying bonds will cost you in the long run. Even the whisper of a threat of non-payment will send yields up. And all of this defines how much we pay for future bond issuances.

So all the economists that say burn them are wrong, and the government were right all along. So its for our own good in the long term to actually pay them, is that what your saying?

Bullseye1 · 02-10-2012 2:20pm

They are only covering portion of the deposits. And I suspect a lot less by allowing the banks fail. Why are we responsible for private debt? Because of a mad decision made by a number of ministers and their high ranking civil servants/advisers. They made a decision which has had bigger implication on this country than any amendment to our constitution voted on by the people.

Chips Lovell · 02-10-2012 2:30pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

They are only covering portion of the deposits. And I suspect a lot less by allowing the banks fail.

AIB had approx. €83 billion on deposit at the end of 2009. We have put €20 billion into AIB. So the upfront cost of letting the bank fail would only be lower than the bailout if less than a quarter of deposits were covered. That's bearing in mind too that there are other costs with letting a bank fail.

As long as AIB continues to trade, there is hope of at least some of that €20 billion being recouped. Any payout on a deposit guarantee would be gone forever.

dvpower · 02-10-2012 2:33pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Why are we responsible for private debt?

Aren't deposits private debt too?

Bullseye1 · 02-10-2012 2:55pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

AIB had approx. €83 billion on deposit at the end of 2009. We have put €20 billion into AIB. So the upfront cost of letting the bank fail would only be lower than the bailout if less than a quarter of deposits were covered. That's bearing in mind too that there are other costs with letting a bank fail.

As long as AIB continues to trade, there is hope of at least some of that €20 billion being recouped. Any payout on a deposit guarantee would be gone forever.

AIB and BoI are zombie banks years away from recovery. The lunacy of tracker mortgages has assured them of that.

golden lane · 02-10-2012 3:05pm

Ghandee wrote: »

Starting with govt party members?

that is politics.....

if you are not happy with the way the country is run.......you are one of many billions.......

i live in the uk....we are in the same mire here....

we borrowed fourteen and a half billion last month, just to keep the country running......

by paying the bond holders we can do that.......

i have never owed anybody a penny in my life..........but i still pay back, such is life..

Dickerty · 02-10-2012 3:06pm

darkhorse wrote: »

So all the economists that say burn them are wrong, and the government were right all along. So its for our own good in the long term to actually pay them, is that what your saying?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And plenty of economists agree, they just don't all have columns in the daily broadsheets.

Oh, and that "burn them" argument was only for unsecured bond holders, the argument being that they were entitled to lose out, that that would STILL impact yields and discourage purchasing of future gov debt.

Politically, it's the right thing to do. The fact that the bond holders are in many cases German and French banks certainly plays a part, since they are paying most of out bailout....

Hijpo · 02-10-2012 3:12pm

golden lane wrote: »

i live in the uk......

As a percentage, how much of your weekly wage is spent on taxes and charges to the government?

Ghandee · 02-10-2012 3:20pm

Hijpo wrote: »

As a percentage, how much of your weekly wage is spent on taxes and charges to the government?

What does his version of property tax get him there?

Do the UK politicians get the guts of 5k€ a MONTH in unvouched expenses?

What are the UK tax payers opinions with the USC that gets deducted from their pay each week/month ?

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 3:26pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Do you think AIB defaulting would have left us with more or less money for the disabled?

I'll get back in a few minutes on that one, just want to look for my calculator.

I found it. One billion more.

golden lane · 02-10-2012 3:28pm

Hijpo wrote: »

As a percentage, how much of your weekly wage is spent on taxes and charges to the government?

i have been retired for two years now.....

but i can remember paying about £200 on pay of about £720....

paying council tax of about £30 a week on top of that....

then vat on purchages......

very had to work out total percentages......but certainly far too much....

golden lane · 02-10-2012 3:31pm

golden lane wrote: »

i have been retired for two years now.....

but i can remember paying about £200 on pay of about £720....

paying council tax of about £30 a week on top of that....

then vat on purchages......

very had to work out total percentages......but certainly far too much....

but i smoke now and buy petrol.....so that alone comes to £60 for the government....

ncdadam · 02-10-2012 3:35pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

As has been pointed out already, that was an AIB bond. The bank is still trading. Unless you're actually arguing that the bank should default and all that entails, it needed to pay it.

AIB is a bankrupt bank.
Capital market forces should have allowed it to fail in 2008.
It was bankrupt then and it's bankrupt now.

ncdadam · 02-10-2012 3:38pm

golden lane wrote: »

that is not the point.......

they borrowed money, and gave their bond to pay it back.......

they need to borrow to run the country.....

so they need to borrow more.....if they can't be trusted, then people will not lend....it is simple...

how the countrty got into it's present state......has nothing to do with the lenders...

so, stop moaning and pay your debts.......

I didn't know that a €1 billion bond paid yesterday to try and keep a bankrupt bank going was my debt.
I'd better not tell the wife.......

golden lane · 02-10-2012 3:43pm

ncdadam wrote: »

I didn't know that a €1 billion bond paid yesterday to try and keep a bankrupt bank going was my debt.
I'd better not tell the wife.......

you could move to the uk......then the 30 billion pounds in interest we pay each year to the bond holders......could be your debt....

Chips Lovell · 02-10-2012 3:45pm

ncdadam wrote: »

AIB is a bankrupt bank.
Capital market forces should have allowed it to fail in 2008.
It was bankrupt then and it's bankrupt now.

I don't think anyone's under any illusion regarding the health of AIB when it was bailed out and indeed now.

The issue is the cost of letting it fail vs. the cost of bailing it out.

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 3:51pm

Dickerty wrote: »

Oh, and that "burn them" argument was only for unsecured bond holders
QUOTE]

AIB repays €1 billion to unsecured bondholders today · TheJournal.ie

golden lane · 02-10-2012 3:53pm

darkhorse wrote: »

Dickerty wrote: »

Oh, and that "burn them" argument was only for unsecured bond holders
QUOTE]

AIB repays €1 billion to unsecured bondholders today · TheJournal.ie

unsecured bonds.....are not bonds....they are unsecured loans.....

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 4:02pm

golden lane wrote: »

but i smoke now and buy petrol.....so that alone comes to £60 for the government....

We dont do anything like that here. We have to try and save as much as we can in order to give to our government in charges and taxes.

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 4:08pm

golden lane wrote: »

darkhorse wrote: »

unsecured bonds.....are not bonds....they are unsecured loans.....

Oh, so they just call them unsecured bonds? Right, got ya.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dickerty · 02-10-2012 4:51pm

darkhorse wrote: »

unsecured bonds.....are not bonds....they are unsecured loans.....

If you want to go that way - a bond IS a loan really. The fact that is unsecured is what is important, but the bank guarantee legislates that we need to pay if back.

But even without the guarantee, it would be a bad idea to burn them, given they are the same institutions and countries that we will be hoping to sell new issue bonds to in the coming years...

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 5:30pm

golden lane wrote: »

you could move to the uk......then the 30 billion pounds in interest we pay each year to the bond holders......could be your debt....

Just as a matter of interest, how many people have you over there paying taxes, in order to pay for the above.

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 5:46pm

squod wrote: »

I think no-one at this stage is too bothered about the money thats essentially already lost. People want justice. Politicians, civil servants, bankers plenty of people all belong behind bars for their' part in the Anglo bail-out fraud.

People need to be taught about justice 101. Bad guys go to jail.

I know its going a bit off-thread, squod, but I bet this guy is sorry that he did'nt go for a few hundred million, instead of a poxy one and a half million.

Man jailed over garlic tax scam - The Irish Times - Fri, Mar 09, 2012

darkhorse · 02-10-2012 5:55pm

Dickerty wrote: »

If you want to go that way - a bond IS a loan really. The fact that is unsecured is what is important guarantee.

I dont want go any way. I did'nt decide what they should be called. You can put the spade away now, btw.

squod · 02-10-2012 6:09pm

darkhorse wrote: »

squod wrote: »

I think no-one at this stage is too bothered about the money thats essentially already lost. People want justice. Politicians, civil servants, bankers plenty of people all belong behind bars for their' part in the Anglo bail-out fraud.

People need to be taught about justice 101. Bad guys go to jail.

I know its going a bit off-thread, squod, but I bet this guy is wishing that he did'nt go for a few hundred million, instead of a poxy one and a half million.

Man jailed over garlic tax scam - The Irish Times - Fri, Mar 09, 2012

I have to laugh. I'd say yer man is kicking himself that he didn't make time to join a political party

the groutch · 02-10-2012 6:32pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

AIB and BoI are zombie banks years away from recovery. The lunacy of tracker mortgages has assured them of that.

agree, tracker mortgages when your country doesn't even have control over it's own interest rates is beyond comprehension.

Le_Dieux · 02-10-2012 7:35pm

Dickerty wrote: »

Do you understand capital markets? You know what happens to our future bond yields if we default on ANY of these payments?

We end up like Greece, shut out for years and years to come. Which leaves them in deep recession, with limited external support.

Do you know how that that would be for a country so reliant on exports and FDI?

I think we know, but as long as the powers that be still stick their fingers in the coffers willy nilly, thus they may as well be sticking 2 fingers at Joe Public, then I think they a cheek asking us to keep paying and paying when we have SAF left to give.

I know I haven't!

Hijpo · 02-10-2012 8:08pm

golden lane wrote: »

but i can remember paying about £200 on pay of about £720....

paying council tax of about £30 a week on top of that....

then vat on purchages......

very had to work out total percentages......but certainly far too much....

Whats that about 28% on 720?

i think i pay 26% (paye 20%, prsi 4%, usc 2%) in all so we arnt far off in the difference.
If i go above 630pw i pay 42% in PAYE alone

England has 60m people, ireland has around 4.5m
If england can service 60million people with a 28% tax why cant ireland service 55.5m less people with a tax bracket thats only 2% lower?

i would happily pay 50 euro a week for the services you recieve in england because i get something in return for my money.

VAT is applied to everything, not to mention the levies on things you MUST have.

Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] Poll Reset