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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #9692
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    dvpower wrote: »
    It's very clear


    How you could advise someone who is brought to court for non payment to tell the judge that they were 'waiting for the charge to be taken at point of sale' is beyond me. You really should not be giving out legal advise that you don't yourself understand.



    Anyone looking to choose the 12 year gamble should be fully aware of the potential losses. Apart from the fines, there may also be costs, which could far exceed the fine.

    They have said no one is going to jail, so when people won,t pay the court costs-just weigh up what options they might take instead-One of the first things some people did was get legal advice last year to weigh up what they might try to do in court-the 12 year limit-statue of limitations- they will bring you to court if convicted they will impose a €2.500 fine against you-they will charge court costs against you-we keep hearing all the fines/penalties/Interest becomes a Judgement against a property so you can,t sell or transfer your property unless all fees are paid-does this Judgement apply forever ? No it doesn,t

    (6) (a) An action shall not be brought upon a judgment after the expiration of twelve years from the date on which the judgment became enforceable.

    (b) No arrears of interest in respect of any judgment debt shall be recovered after the expiration of six years from the date on which the interest became due.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1957/en/act/pub/0006/sec0011.html

    During the last anti water rates campaign a lot of cases were thrown out of court as the councils were unable to prove the people were occupiers of the houses listed as not paying-there were some cases where the councils won and would of had court costs against non payers-where the court costs were placed as a charge against a property-we all know how the water rates worked out in the longer run-after they were abolished non payers won and never paid a cent in rates/court costs and anyone who did pay water rates never got refunds.


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    #9693
    DoesNotCompute
    Registered Users Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭DoesNotCompute


    Just to throw this into the mix. Minister Shatter is looking to give Courts the power to deduct the HHC + fees + interest from people's wage packet or social welfare payment, in order to avoid locking people up.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-will-target-wages-to-collect-fines-over-nonpayment-of-household-charge-3262203.html


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    #9694
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Come on now Ghandee you cant be so naive as to think the other parties are opposing it because they really dont believe in it. They are saying they dont agree with it in the hope of getting elected. They see that people arent happy with it and say they will abolish it in the hope of getting elected, which as everyone knows wont necessarily happen if they do manage to get elected.

    Saying it and doing it are two completely different things. And if they were opposed to it enough that they abolished it then the shortfall in funding will have to come from somewhere else so I for one would be very interested in hearing where they plan to make the shortfall up.

    Id imagine if Sinn Fein get voted in-once they see they hit the labour will take for selling out their working class voters that they were supposed to represent-SF will take note and keep to their promise to abolish a property tax -Given FF have jumped on the bandwagon against a property tax-if they also pledge to abolish it-always remember it was FF who abolished domestic rates in 1977 and the residential property tax in 1997-if they think abolishing it to win power and keep power or stay in opposition I think they will very well choose the first option.


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    #9695
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    Just to throw this into the mix. Minister Shatter is looking to give Courts the power to deduct the HHC + fees + interest from people's wage packet or social welfare payment, in order to avoid locking people up.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-will-target-wages-to-collect-fines-over-nonpayment-of-household-charge-3262203.html

    People were expecting they might try something like that-they tried similar stuff with the poll tax.
    Their strategy was to resist at every step: refusing to register for the tax, contesting liability orders from the council (thus clogging up the legal system) and finally refusing payment. This was highly effective. Tax collection was ineffective, and the situation was polarised at great expense to the ruling Conservatives, who were forced to depose their leader and retreat from the full legislation

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/civil-disobedience-sanchez-gordillo

    I have said it before its not just one tax they have to try implement its three-household tax/property tax-so far in the first year over 700.000 non paid non registered, more will come on board when they see the real cost next year-then the septic tank registration fee which was a €5, nows its €50-even at €5 more then half refused to register for it-then there is water rates to come in 2014-which there will be a non payment campaign for that also-if they try to bring hundreds of thousands to court for non payment of various taxes/charges to get fines against them-the court system will get completely clogged up and break down.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rural-revolt-as-half-of-farmers-refuse-to-pay-septic-tank-fees-3244605.html


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    #9696
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Am Chile wrote: »
    They have said no one is going to jail, so when people won,t pay the court costs-just weigh up what options they might take instead-One of the first things some people did was get legal advice last year to weigh up what they might try to do in court-the 12 year limit-statue of limitations- they will bring you to court if convicted they will impose a €2.500 fine against you-they will charge court costs against you-we keep hearing all the fines/penalties/Interest becomes a Judgement against a property so you can,t sell or transfer your property unless all fees are paid-does this Judgement apply forever ? No it doesn,t
    Nobody goes to jail under the HHC legislation.
    Failure to pay a fine imposed under the Fines Act is a different story altogether. And you certainly can go to jail for contempt of court.
    You can't just choose to ignore court judgments and expect to stay out of jail.

    We've covered this ground a number of times on this thread.


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    #9697
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Am Chile wrote: »

    Id imagine if Sinn Fein get voted in-once they see they hit the labour will take for selling out their working class voters that they were supposed to represent-SF will take note and keep to their promise to abolish a property tax -Given FF have jumped on the bandwagon against a property tax-if they also pledge to abolish it-always remember it was FF who abolished domestic rates in 1977 and the residential property tax in 1997-if they think abolishing it to win power and keep power or stay in opposition I think they will very well choose the first option.

    Yes FF abolished domestic rates for political purposes in the 70's and could attempt it again but then would the Irish people be dumb enough to think that's a good idea based on FF's previous record where economics are concerned.

    I for one wouldn't vote for someone who says they are planning on abolishing the property tax without hearing how they plan to make up the deficit left when they abolish them


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    #9698
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Hijpo wrote: »
    How the councils even got to those numbers is beyond me.


    Again though I say......they are chopping the cllrs.....WHAT ABOUT THE TD numbers???


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    #9699
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Deank wrote: »
    They stated on the letter that the amount now due including late payment fees is €127 per property and this will continue to increase each month until the charge is paid.

    I was referring to grass cutting of the public areas, Kildare Co. Council do this for all other estates in the area that have been handed over to them.

    Deank, I'm also in Kildare, and haven't paid the HHC. One half of the Estate is handed over, but the other half is becoming a rat infested (sad to say ) kip.

    However, I don't know where You get Your info on the grass cutting, I was on our RA, and WE had to cut it. KCC NEVER once cut our grass, in either Phase 1 or 2.


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    #9700
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    That was over 15 years ago!


    “..Property Tax is unfair and inequitable..” Leaflet from Olivia Mitchell -Fine Gael -Dublin South June 5, 2012

    This big enough for you?


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    #9701
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/registration/index.html

    Great.

    How would that solve the problem of someone being completely unaware of the hhc?

    Would they log onto a site to ensure they're not liable for something they're completely oblivious to, is that it?


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    #9702
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Ghandee wrote: »
    I'm in Kildare also.

    If you're (like me) exempt, they're still asking you to register for a 'waiver'.

    Register for a waiver lol?

    Register to be later screwed more like it. :cool:

    We had our RA AGM last March, and invited a prominent cllr ( no names ) to the meeting for the specifoc purpose of answerring questions re the phase not handed over in our estate. Remember our estate has sbout 12 houses unsold, another 50 still to be built, though some have foundations laid. A fence around the building site which might as well be out in the middle of the Curragh for all the good it is. There are also a few derelict portakabins, and now we have fcuking rats. And when the cllr was asked why phase 2 should pay the HHC and why it wasn't on the exempt list, he told us to pay this year and it will be reviewed next year.

    Needless to say I am not aware of one house ( there are 100 houses in the phase) having either paid or regsitered.

    Oh am not a million miles from You either Deank.


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    #9703
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    Give it time, Donal. I recall the head of the LGMA coming out and saying that they won't start prosecuting people until they've sent out 3 batches of letters. So far we're only on the second batch of letters iirc.

    I'm still awaiting the FIRST letter.


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    #9704
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    DoesNotCompute wrote: »
    Just to throw this into the mix. Minister Shatter is looking to give Courts the power to deduct the HHC + fees + interest from people's wage packet or social welfare payment, in order to avoid locking people up.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shatter-will-target-wages-to-collect-fines-over-nonpayment-of-household-charge-3262203.html

    Just to throw this into the mix so.

    The above changes nothing not a thing.

    Why?

    Well, it only applies when (taken from your link) as I've said all along, they cannot deduct from source without a court order, hence why they didn't go that route already.
    But local authorities will have to go to court first --they cannot deduct the €100 charge from people's earnings directly.

    Gombeens. :rolleyes:

    Sure that brings them back to square one, identify whose yet to pay, bring them to court (600,000 of them lol) then get a judge to attach a charge to their wages.

    Biggerr clowns running the country than the ones in Tom Duffy's circus.

    That one wasn't thought out at all DNC now was it?


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    #9705
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Ghandee wrote: »
    As already stated.

    A few td's and members of the dail openly admit to not paying.

    Why the reluctance to prosecute these people?

    I have to plead ignorance here Ghandee.....who has openly admitted to not paying?

    One thing is for sure, THEY will be the first to be prosecuted, otherwise there will be uproar on the streets.


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    #9706
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Deank wrote: »
    How can the LA's prove that they've given people many chances to pay, as the letter I received this morning was not registered, hence I never received it, if a registered letter arrives I'll refuse it, if someone comes knocking on my door they'll be run off my property.

    I am not paying for 3 reasons.
    1. My esatate has not yet been taken over by our LA
    2. I paid an exhorbatant amount in stamp duty 8 years ago, another snake of a tax
    3. I f I register now the bast@rds will get us for a percentage of the house value "tax" when they eventually figure out how to implement it properly.

    Question Deank: Is Your estate on the exempt list?


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    #9707
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    darkhorse wrote: »
    “..Property Tax is unfair and inequitable..” Leaflet from Olivia Mitchell -Fine Gael -Dublin South June 5, 2012

    This big enough for you?
    The Wordpress document where you found the leaflet is from June 5, 2012.

    http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2012/06/05/property-tax-is-unfair-and-inequitable-leaflet-from-olivia-mitchell-fine-gael-dublin-south/

    The actual leaflet is from the mid 90s..

    This thread is hard work.


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    #9708
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Not everyone who is self-employed has to register for VAT.

    REALLY Vlad? Who is exempt?


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    #9709
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    How would that solve the problem of someone being completely unaware of the hhc?
    There is no problem.
    Just as a self employed person needs to self declare their income tax, a home owner has to self declare their HHC.
    Ignorance is not an excuse.


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    #9710
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Le_Dieux wrote: »
    REALLY Vlad? Who is exempt?
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/registration/index.html#reg2


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    #9711
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Just to throw this into the mix so.

    The above changes nothing not a thing.

    Why?

    Well, it only applies when (taken from your link) as I've said all along, they cannot deduct from source without a court order, hence why they didn't go that route already.
    Read the Fines Act 2010 - it provides for a range of ways to collect fines imposed for failure to register or pay the HHC.
    Also, the Collector General can apply attachments to income or earnings without a court order.


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    #9712
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    There is no problem.
    Just as a self employed person needs to self declare their income tax, a home owner has to self declare their HHC.
    Ignorance is not an excuse.

    If ignorance is no execuse, why will you not answer my question regarding a road offence one may not be aware off ?


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    #9713
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Ghandee wrote: »
    If ignorance is no execuse, why will you not answer my question regarding a road offence one may not be aware off ?

    One is a tax, the other is a fine. And the law is that it's up to you to make yourself aware of any taxes that you may be liable for.


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    #9714
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    If ignorance is no execuse, why will you not answer my question regarding a road offence one may not be aware off ?
    Ignorance is no excuse regardless of what relevance you think the Road Traffic Act has to the HHC.
    I honestly don't know why you're banging on about road traffic offences. :confused:


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    #9715
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    One is a tax, the other is a fine. And the law is that it's up to you to make yourself aware of any taxes that you may be liable for.

    As FG leader of cork found out.

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/tax-default-cllr-quits-over-drink-drive-charge-3230528.html


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    #9716
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Ghandee wrote: »
    As FG leader of cork found out.

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/tax-default-cllr-quits-over-drink-drive-charge-3230528.html

    Exactly.


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    #9717
    Le_Dieux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭Le_Dieux


    Any wonder we are broke, when cllrs are doing this?

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/cllrs-claim-190k-in-pay-and-expenses-across-three-towns-3260091.html

    I wonder just how prevalent this is throughout the 26 counties:mad::mad::mad:


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    #9718
    Deank
    Registered Users Posts: 7,238 ✭✭✭Deank


    Le_Dieux wrote: »

    Question Deank: Is Your estate on the exempt list?
    No it isn't unfortunately


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    #9719
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Exactly.

    Which is exactly why the rest of the nation should do exactly as the example set by those at the top.

    Pay nothing until you get (perhaps never) caught.

    Good for the goose (owing over 80k) good for the gander with a hundred euro.


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    #9720
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    Ignorance is no excuse regardless of what relevance you think the Road Traffic Act has to the HHC.
    I honestly don't know why you're banging on about road traffic offences. :confused:

    I keep going on about it because people who've been summonsed to court over non payment of fines relating to traffic offences have been thrown out of court simply because the defendants claimed they never received any fine through the post.

    Anyone could claim they never paid because they were unaware of it, and never received invoice or letters.

    The judge may be forced to throw it out also.

    We will wait for the first case and see though.


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    #9721
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    dvpower wrote: »
    The Wordpress document where you found the leaflet is from June 5, 2012.

    http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2012/06/05/property-tax-is-unfair-and-inequitable-leaflet-from-olivia-mitchell-fine-gael-dublin-south/

    The actual leaflet is from the mid 90s..

    This thread is hard work.

    It don't really matter what anyone comes up with as far as you guys are concerned.

    What about:-

    Funding Local Government:

    [FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro]Fianna Fail’s proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT][/FONT]
    This is just an extract from F.G.s manifesto 2011, which I'm sure that you are familiar with.
    [FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][FONT=Myriad Pro,Myriad Pro][/FONT][/FONT]


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