Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

miftha

Less than 50% have paid....

http://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/household-charge-numbers/

dxhound2005

I'm not worrying about how the property tax will be calculated or how much it might be next year. And because I paid the Household Charge I'm not wondering how or when the authorities will be contacting me this year.

hondasam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm not worrying about how the property tax will be calculated or how much it might be next year. And because I paid the Household Charge I'm not wondering how or when the authorities will be contacting me this year.

You should be worrying because you will be paying a lot more than €100.

dxhound2005

hondasam wrote: »

You should be worrying because you will be paying a lot more than €100.

I knew that already and it didn't worry me.

Le_Dieux

robbie7730 wrote: »

Just had a quick look.

Some proposal or other, not that it means a thing.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfqlidaueysn/rss2/[/QUOTE]

Can see uproar over the huge jump in the charge from the €150k to the next band

Bruthal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm not worrying about how the property tax will be calculated or how much it might be next year. And because I paid the Household Charge I'm not wondering how or when the authorities will be contacting me this year.

Whats this got to do with anything? Is it because you dont have to worry about the level it might be next year, no one else needs to either?

hondasam

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I knew that already and it didn't worry me.

Good for you, You are prepared to pay what ever the ask?

dxhound2005

miftha wrote: »

Less than 50% have paid....

http://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/household-charge-numbers/

There is one element not taken into account there. Payments posted on Friday and Saturday and some from Thursday (An Post do not achieve 100% next day delivery) will not be delivered until tomorrow at the earliest so obviously can not form part of the calculation yet.

Bruthal

Le_Dieux wrote: »

robbie7730 wrote: »

Just had a quick look.

Some proposal or other, not that it means a thing.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfqlidaueysn/rss2/

Can see uproar over the huge jump in the charge from the €150k to the next band

If such a setup was used, the lower band would likely be one that has hardly any properties in it.

dvpower

hondasam wrote: »

It will not be self declaration,open to way too much abuse from the likes of me. I would imagine there will be lots of different factors to be taken into account, size, location, year it was built etc.

I don't know how you can say this with any certainty (I presume you mean self assessment)
There has been an expert group set up to devise the tax, but there was a Commission on Taxation report in 2009 that proposed a property tax based on self assessment so its difficult to envisage the expert group coming up with something radically different.

miftha

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There is one element not taken into account there. Payments posted on Friday and Saturday and some from Thursday (An Post do not achieve 100% next day delivery) will not be delivered until tomorrow at the earliest so obviously can not form part of the calculation yet.

Correct, and how many of them contain no money at all? A minimum of 2 that I sent in that contain their final notice and many more did the same

ArmaniJeanss

robbie7730 wrote: »

Just had a quick look.

Some proposal or other, not that it means a thing.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfqlidaueysn/rss2/

It proposed charges of €188 for houses up to the value of €150,000; €563 for houses valued between €150,000 and €300,000; €938 on houses between €300,000 and €450,000; €1,313 for houses up to €600,000 and €2,188 on houses valued at up to €1 million.

I can only guess those figures come from a time when there were next to no houses in the country under €150K. Its a horrible structure which frankly they can't possibly use.

dvpower

Here is what they are considering for the property tax.

The Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government, Mr. Phil Hogan, T.D. has established an Inter-Departmental Group on Property Tax. This Group will consider the design of an equitable property tax, to be approved by Government, to replace the household charge.
The property tax is to:
• meet the immediate financial requirements of the EU/IMF programme;
• provide a stable funding base for the local authority sector in the medium and longer terms; incorporating an appropriate element of local authority responsibility subject to any national parameters;
• be collected centrally by the most cost efficient and effective means;
• facilitate easy and/or phased payments by households;
• be easily determined (e.g. on a self assessment basis), and having regard to available information on residential property and/or house ownership details;
• ensure the maximum degree of fairness between and across both urban and rural areas.

The Group is also to consider the appropriate arrangements for:
• a robust audit function; and
• strong enforcement and penalty provisions for non-compliance.

Slick50

lugha wrote:

So I fail to see the distinction.

I didn't think anyone could fail to see the difference. The government can reasonably justify charging people a tax to maintain roads. (The fact that most councils are remiss in their duty to use the money for this purpose, doesn't mean it shouldn't be.)

On the other hand my house does not cost the government/council anything.

BrenCooney wrote:

I keep hearing about law abiding citizens.
Not many of them this afternoon when an innocent man who happened to look like somebody else was lynched.

shame on you all.

Chucky the tree wrote:

That doesn't matter. It's a disgrace that they couldn't even walk through without being attacked.

Nobody was lynched. I was at yesterdays protest, and I think it was probably one of the most dignified, and polite protests ever. The fact that one man may have been jostled, (and I think that was wrong too) gets blown out of all proportion, is indicative of the ammount of media bias, and missrepresentation. The line of delegates that were paraded through the thick of the demonstration, were heckled, but equally a path opened up for them and they were unhindered, and none were touched.

The gardai had a cordon around the conference centre, for "security reasons", denying people of the state the right to walk certain streets of their own capital city. Why was it necessary to walk these people through the route that they took.

It certainly smacked of antagonism.

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

Thats where the property price database kicks in.
I'd also expect some clawback if you sell your house for a figure greatly inflated from the value you declared on it.

Will you get a rebate if you sell for less? It would only be fair and equitable.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Will you get a rebate if you sell for less? It would only be fair and equitable.

Don't know about that, but if its based on bands, that would be an unlikely scenario.

Bruthal

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I can only guess those figures come from a time when there were next to no houses in the country under €150K. Its a horrible structure which frankly they can't possibly use.

Well all they have to do is use more up to date downward revised figures.

Like i already said, the lower end of the lower scale would be likely to have very few houses in it.

And saying its a horrible structure would hardly rule its use out with our governments.

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

Don't know about that, but if its based on bands, that would be an unlikely scenario.

With prices falling all the time it is a hell of alot more likely than your scenario of selling much higher than declared.

ArmaniJeanss

Interesting to see how this develops from a house sale pov.
If 4% of house stock changes hands each year thats around 60,000 houses.
Will the word quickly go out that you can't legally sell your house without this payment being cleared?

As arrears start mounting up, possibly approaching 4 figures by summer next year (with next years increase, + back penalties and fines) will it get to the stage that estate agents won't take your business unless your house is 'clear'.

Will 'House Tax Up to Date' become a standard bit of text in estate agents general gumfphhhh, much like 'NCTed up to next June' is something to look out for in a car advertisement?

Bruthal

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Interesting to see how this develops from a house sale pov.
If 4% of house stock changes hands each year thats around 60,000 houses.
Will the word quickly go out that you can't legally sell your house without this payment being cleared?

As arrears start mounting up, possibly approaching 4 figures by summer next year (with next years increase, + back penalties and fines) will it get to the stage that estate agents won't take your business unless your house is 'clear'.

Will 'House Tax Up to Date' become a standard bit of text in estate agents general gumfphhhh, much like 'NCTed up to next June' is something to look out for in a car advertisement?

Good points alright, maybe we will have a tax disk in our living room windows as suggested earlier in the thread:D

Biggins

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

...Will 'House Tax Up to Date' become a standard bit of text in estate agents general gumfphhhh, much like 'NCTed up to next June' is something to look out for in a car advertisement?

Good question - and will it have a detrimental effect on desired sales of homes?
Another nail in the coffin for the house selling business?

dxhound2005

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Interesting to see how this develops from a house sale pov.
If 4% of house stock changes hands each year thats around 60,000 houses.
Will the word quickly go out that you can't legally sell your house without this payment being cleared?

As arrears start mounting up, possibly approaching 4 figures by summer next year (with next years increase, + back penalties and fines) will it get to the stage that estate agents won't take your business unless your house is 'clear'.

Will 'House Tax Up to Date' become a standard bit of text in estate agents general gumfphhhh, much like 'NCTed up to next June' is something to look out for in a car advertisement?

I posted a link earlier showing that auctioneers and estate agents will have to ensure that a property is in compliance before they can accept it. I didn't know about that 60,000 figure but every estate agent's window I see is full of properties for sale. This was and is one very important aspect which CAHWT avoided in their literature and probably at their meetings. Maybe their legal team have a way round it but I would doubt that.

ArmaniJeanss

robbie7730 wrote: »

Good points alright, maybe we will have a tax disk in our living room windows as suggested earlier in the thread:D

Tax disc would be funny but probably not realistic.

****
I'm guessing if they really wanted to push it they could do various things to force peoples hands.

Currently existing government grants for things like insulation and solar panelling only being available to registered homes seems a no brainer, but I reckon the take up on these grants is very small anyway.

Legislation to prohibit various 'luxury' items like satellite tv and broadband being installed in unregisted houses would be interesting.

Defcon6 would be to only allow various government benefits like childrens allowance to be paid to people resident in registered houses. Suspect this would be a step too far though.

Pete M.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Legislation to prohibit various 'luxury' items like satellite tv and broadband being installed in unregisted houses would be interesting.

Sounds like something they had back in 1984....

They can put whatever charges they like against my home.
Because I'm keeping it!

ArmaniJeanss

Biggins wrote: »

Good question - and will it have a detrimental effect on desired sales of homes?
Another nail in the coffin for the house selling business?

Its a fair point, the law of unintended consequences and all that.

Though I wonder ultimately if the only thing stopping Famille Biggins moving into the dream house, (for which you've got every other bit of finance sorted), is the outstanding ~€1K in household charges on the existing house won't a pragmatic decision be made to you know, pay up.

Possibly not you, you're stubborn .

But when it comes down to it others may be less inclined to stick to their principles.

Slick50

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I didn't know about that 60,000 figure but every estate agent's window I see is full of properties for sale.

I don't think there is anything like that sort of figure changing hands these days. They may change their minds about this sort of restriction, when they find that they are still strangling the property market.

When they first brought in the NCT, you couldn't renew your car tax without your NCT certificate. This soon changed when the car tax returns began to dwindle rapidly.

jay-me

How can they say the council needs money when they recently sold off a very lucrative business that made a lot of households pay up 100 euro off the bat???

ArmaniJeanss

jay-me wrote: »

How can they say the council needs money when they recently sold off a very lucrative business that made a lot of households pay up 100 euro off the bat???

Rubbish collection?

Was a massive loser for Dublin Corporation and Fingal (don't know if other councils could do it at a profit). Fingal alone claimed they were down €2M+ a year on it.

Was generally caused by a combination of factors (uncontrolled waivers, existing worker contracts, peoples unexpected enthuasism for recycling) though ultimately it came down to councils not having the expertise at running a refuse collection service.

mikom

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Defcon6 would be to only allow various government benefits like childrens allowance to be paid to people resident in registered houses. Suspect this would be a step too far though.

There would be bullets in the post long before that.

jay-me

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Rubbish collection?

Was a massive loser for Dublin Corporation and Fingal (don't know if other councils could do it at a profit). Fingal alone claimed they were down €2M+ a year on it.

Was generally caused by a combination of factors (uncontrolled waivers, existing worker contracts, peoples unexpected enthuasism for recycling) though ultimately it came down to councils not having the expertise at running a refuse collection service.

Yet hand it over to greyhound etc and it is a very profitable company!! Recycling is a huge money maker!