Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Ghandee

MagicSean wrote: »

€25 every 3 months won't interfere very much with your life. You'll only end up losing out in the long run by not paying it.

Once again, how much will it cost next year, or worse, 2014?

People don't know, therefore people won't comply.


Anyone arguing the point that 'it's only one hundred euro' is pretty naive if you ask me.

MagicSean

Ghandee wrote: »

Once again, how much will it cost next year, or worse, 2014?

People don't know, therefore people won't comply.


Anyone arguing the point that 'it's only one hundred euro' is pretty naive if you ask me.

How much will the income tax rate be next year? Or the vat? Unless oyu have a crystal ball I doubt you can predict that for sure. But people still pay.

goat2

this lad is scaremongering

Bishop_Donal

What a load of hot air about nothing, and now a FF politician jumping on the bandwagon.

This should have been introduced at Eur1k per annum per house (average), and collected at source. Then none of this mess would have arisen.

By virtue of the crazy way it was introduced a lot of decent law abiding citizens are now going to get hit with penalties and interest which is unfair.

jluv

Even the LA's seem to coming out against this now.They know that they will have shortfalls but they also recognise that this was lauched to the public in the wrong way. And I think they are scared now that their LA is going to suffer because of the way money is going to be distributed.As for lights not being switched off. We don't have here and we are very close to a main road,not very rural,just could never get.

Freddie59

MagicSean wrote: »

i work for the public sector. I work very hard and earn every cent i am paid. Yet still I am in financial difficulty because i am taxed to the hilt, taxed more than a private sector employee. i don't expect anything from you but I'll bet you'd expect the world from me if you ever had to call on my services. i think most people in the emergency services would be in the same boat as i am.

Look - the reality is that this country is - essentially - bankrupt. We are borrowing €400m a week to pay the ridiculously high wages of you and people like you. Along with your lavish "entitlements".

Now, in the real world, any company teetering on the brink - let alone bankrupt - lays off staff and cuts wages and expenditure, so that they don't spend more out than they take in. It is an economic reality. The government, however, along with the CS/PS, seem to think they are somehow immune from this.

What happens when we can no longer borrow €400m a week - the sum itself is simply staggering.

Ghandee

MagicSean wrote: »

How much will the income tax rate be next year?

I don't know, but income tax will target everyone, not just a home owner, so that argument is null and void.

MagicSean wrote: »

Or the vat?

If vat goes up, I can decide at the point of sale whether or not I want to complete the transaction on a luxury/essential item that I choose to buy, and can make the decision whether or not the item, or service provided represents value for money.
A household charge/property tax offers me none of these options.

MagicSean wrote: »

Unless oyu have a crystal ball I doubt you can predict that for sure. But people still pay.

The majority of people did not though.

Freddie59

dvpower wrote: »

You're exactly right Freddie - we are borrowing €400m a week or whatever to fund public spending. And also some debt repayments, but mostly public spending.

We need to narrow the gap between income and expenditure. You seem to want to do it by spending cuts alone and very quickly. I differ in that I'd like to see it bridged by a mix of spending cuts and tax increases and over a longer period.
So we agree on the nature of the problem, but differ on the nature of the solution.

Agreed. But you cannot keep taxing the overtaxed. It will implode. Then what happens? Sweeping cuts to the causes of the deficit must be made. Staring with what everyone outside of the CS/PS recognises: that it is overstaffed, overpaid, underworked and woefully managed. The "household charge" fiasco is evidence of this if ever it were needed.

Freddie59

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I really don't understand the problem with expecting people to pay for their services???

It's not as if this tax is on a service that no-one needs or needs. You want a home, you have pay for it. I don't understand the outrage tbh.

I know that there are those genuinely struggling but surely we can't expect to get everything handed to us on a silver platter.

Then you have a very poor understanding of the situation. If it were merely to pay for services than I - and many others - wouldn't have a problem. The fact that the money has been siphoned off to banking debt and high PS/CS wages and "entitlements" is what has people infuriated.

Freddie59

hondasam wrote: »

You think PS workers do not work hard? we all agree those in the middle and at the top are over paid but the ones at the bottom who actually do work are the ones suffering the most.
PS workers at the bottom cannot afford to take any more cuts in wages or allowances.

But where do you expect the money to come from to pay them Sam? Can we - as a small nation of 4.5m - continue to borrow €400m a week indefinitely?

Ghandee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

What a load of hot air about nothing, and now a FF politician jumping on the bandwagon.

This should have been introduced at Eur1k per annum per house (average), and collected at source. Then none of this mess would have arisen.

By virtue of the crazy way it was introduced a lot of decent law abiding citizens are now going to get hit with penalties and interest which is unfair.

Maybe not, we still have a majority of 'decent law abiding citizens' that refused to register/pay.

To top this off, you have the govt admitting they simply don't know the true numbers of houses that we're eligible for the charge, and secondly admitting they have no database you determine who owns what.

Who will they send these penalties to?

More scare mongering folks, don't be taken in.

Bishop here was one of the first pro tax shills to emerge on the original thread.
Conveniently reappeared now come to think of it......;)

Bishop_Donal

Ghandee wrote: »

Maybe not, we still have a majority of 'decent law abiding citizens' that refused to register/pay.

To top this off, you have the govt admitting they simply don't know the true numbers of houses that we're eligible for the charge, and secondly admitting they have no database you determine who owns what.

Who will they send these penalties to?

More scare mongering folks, don't be taken in.

Bishop here was one of the first pro tax shills to emerge on the original thread.
Conveniently reappeared now come to think of it......;)

And I'm still pro the tax!!! I'd just prefer to see it introduced at a meaningful level instead of a miserable Eur100. If there was going to be a fight it should have been over a level that was at least worthwhile.

The tax is in and it's here to stay. Government should have had a fallback plan to collect from the minority who wouldn't comply (and that really doesn't seem ready yet). The consequence of that ineptitude will be that some people will unfairly incur the penalties now.

Regarding my presence on the board, I just got bored with the repetition. Also was away on hols for a while, but as some of the No's would understand, I'm not gone away, ya know!!!

Cantona's Collars

Another gem,you are exempt if you have a long term or debilitating illness that means you can't live in your home.I wouldn't be surprised that if your in a care home they'd try to charge you a second home tax on your homeplace.

bgrizzley

zerks wrote: »

Another gem,you are exempt if you have a long term or debilitating illness that means you can't live in your home.I wouldn't be surprised that if your in a care home they'd try to charge you a second home tax on your homeplace.

think they have that covered. dont they call it a "fair deal"

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

hondasam

Freddie59 wrote: »

But where do you expect the money to come from to pay them Sam? Can we - as a small nation of 4.5m - continue to borrow €400m a week indefinitely?

I dunno, what do you suggest, make thousands of PS workers redundant? You cannot expect people to work for less and less pay.

Cantona's Collars

bgrizzley wrote: »

think they have that covered. dont they call it a "fair deal"

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/health_services_for_older_people/nursing_homes_support_scheme_1.html

The exemption is moot,it's a bit like stating you're exempt because you live in Spain.Whoever came up with it deserves a Blue Peter badge.

Anyhow,another day over and I still refuse to pay.

Hijpo

hondasam wrote: »

I dunno, what do you suggest, make thousands of PS workers redundant? You cannot expect people to work for less and less pay.

A friend of mine works in the local social welfare office and was out sick or had time off for 2 weeks. Some young one was brought in to keep on top of her work an when she came back the 2 week stack of files was still on her desk. Maybe they need better screening at interviews or something i dont know but the ammount of people that pass the comment of "lazy/useless bastards" is unreal and they cant all be wrong. Im not saying every PS worker or yourself is like that but the ones that are really do give you a terrible reputation between loosing files or just being idiots. Another example, i have a friend who was in a car crash with her partner over 3 years ago and hes was killed. They had a 1 year old daughter at the time and my friend applied for a medical card after the accident, a year on and the social welfare is still claiming that the father of her child is making payments towards her it has to be reviewed again surely they can tell wether someone is dead or not??

donalg1

Freddie59 wrote: »

Look - the reality is that this country is - essentially - bankrupt. We are borrowing €400m a week to pay the ridiculously high wages of you and people like you. Along with your lavish "entitlements".

Now, in the real world, any company teetering on the brink - let alone bankrupt - lays off staff and cuts wages and expenditure, so that they don't spend more out than they take in. It is an economic reality. The government, however, along with the CS/PS, seem to think they are somehow immune from this.

What happens when we can no longer borrow €400m a week - the sum itself is simply staggering.

Only difference is one is a Private sector company and the other is the Public sector.

The private sector company is about making profits and if they dont then they go bust and dont exist anymore, whereas the public sector is about providing services to people not about profits.

If you want to compare the two then maybe its time the Guards start charging fees for call outs, the ambo's and fire brigade increase their call out fees, LA's begin charging for the services they provide, say for instance they charge people who apply for housing or increase the other charges, such as rents etc...,

Domestic water charges will be introduced shortly and not a moment too soon, providing a free service to the public while spending millions to provide that service is crazy and unsustainable.

One way the Public Sector funds itself is through taxation this has always been the way and will continue to be the way. If it was a private company it would just fold and not exist anymore, and sure wouldnt the country be grand without guards, nurses and a fire service, water services, affordable housing for the disadvantaged and all the other services they provide.

The Public sector need to increase its revenue take, while cutting costs or working more efficiently same way as SW needs to be cut immediately, same way as fraud in SW needs to be stamped out given, same way as an across the board raising of Income Tax needs to be introduced. Same way as a property tax and water charges need to be brought in.

If you want LA's to provide you with services on a par with other european countries then surely we have to pay the same.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

A friend of mine works in the local social welfare office and was out sick or had time off for 2 weeks. Some young one was brought in to keep on top of her work an when she came back the 2 week stack of files was still on her desk. Maybe they need better screening at interviews or something i dont know but the ammount of people that pass the comment of "lazy/useless bastards" is unreal and they cant all be wrong. Im not saying every PS worker or yourself is like that but the ones that are really do give you a terrible reputation between loosing files or just being idiots. Another example, i have a friend who was in a car crash with her partner over 3 years ago and hes was killed. They had a 1 year old daughter at the time and my friend applied for a medical card after the accident, a year on and the social welfare is still claiming that the father of her child is making payments towards her it has to be reviewed again surely they can tell wether someone is dead or not??

It is true there are certain individuals within the Public Sector that are useless and lazy, but the same can be said for the private sector so I dont think sweeping generalisations are the way to go really.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

It is true there are certain individuals within the Public Sector that are useless and lazy, but the same can be said for the private sector so I dont think sweeping generalisations are the way to go really.

There is a huge diffrence in the impact a lazy useless private sector worker has compared to a public sector worker. Im not saying its OK for any worker to be lazy and useless because of where they work but the public sector worker has alot more responsibility, alot more scrutiny and more importantly a hell of a lot more things rely on the public sector worker to be on the ball most of the time. I wasnt generalising anything, i said that not all public sector workers were useless but the few that are give the good a bad name, thats the way it is unfortunatly.

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

There is a huge diffrence in the impact a lazy useless private sector worker has compared to a public sector worker. Im not saying its OK for any worker to be lazy and useless because of where they work but the public sector worker has alot more responsibility, alot more scrutiny and more importantly a hell of a lot more things rely on the public sector worker to be on the ball most of the time. I wasnt generalising anything, i said that not all public sector workers were useless but the few that are give the good a bad name, thats the way it is unfortunatly.

The bad do give them a poor name alright, but recently though there are a number of private sector companies that have p***ed me right off with their useless staff, but then I would probably be saying the same if I had been dealing with the Public sector recently

Bruthal

MagicSean wrote: »

How much will the income tax rate be next year? Or the vat? Unless oyu have a crystal ball I doubt you can predict that for sure. But people still pay.

They are unlikely to be multiples of what they are this year.

Bullseye1

hondasam wrote: »

I dunno, what do you suggest, make thousands of PS workers redundant? You cannot expect people to work for less and less pay.

The private sector and self employed people have had to. Why should the public sector or social welfare system be any different.

Both are expenditures and when the private sector is no longer making the same income the government has to cut its cloth. So far what they have done is hit everyone including public sector workers with USC, raise VAT, lower certain levels of staff in public sector areas but not in the right areas (management).

The usual question the Yes side ask is where else can money come from. Simple it's called savings and removal of waste.

Bullseye1

donalg1 wrote: »

It is true there are certain individuals within the Public Sector that are useless and lazy, but the same can be said for the private sector so I dont think sweeping generalisations are the way to go really.

The lazy private sector workers are not really costing you nor i money in taxes. It's up to the private sector to sort this out. And when they do fire workers who are not living up to expectations there is an uproar. We have gone to far in many ways in protecting workers and not employers. We need the right balance while still protecting workers from employers who do take advantage of their employees.

donalg1

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The lazy private sector workers are not really costing you nor i money in taxes. It's up to the private sector to sort this out. And when they do fire workers who are not living up to expectations there is an uproar. We have gone to far in many ways in protecting workers and not employers. We need the right balance while still protecting workers from employers who do take advantage of their employees.

They are costing me money when I am paying for a service that I dont receive despite their assurances that I will receive this service yet I still have to constantly phone them and try get this sorted time and again talking to some useless person on the phone for the millionth time to get something sorted.

I do agree with you about protecting employers and employees in a balanced way.

I would also imagine if a public sector worker was really that bad at their job they would be transferred to somewhere they could possibly handle, however I wouldnt be surprised if this wasnt the way either.

MagicSean

Hijpo wrote: »

A friend of mine works in the local social welfare office and was out sick or had time off for 2 weeks. Some young one was brought in to keep on top of her work an when she came back the 2 week stack of files was still on her desk. Maybe they need better screening at interviews or something i dont know but the ammount of people that pass the comment of "lazy/useless bastards" is unreal and they cant all be wrong. Im not saying every PS worker or yourself is like that but the ones that are really do give you a terrible reputation between loosing files or just being idiots. Another example, i have a friend who was in a car crash with her partner over 3 years ago and hes was killed. They had a 1 year old daughter at the time and my friend applied for a medical card after the accident, a year on and the social welfare is still claiming that the father of her child is making payments towards her it has to be reviewed again surely they can tell wether someone is dead or not??

Can she not just give them a copy of the death cert? That should sort out any ambiguity.

donalg1

On a more thread related topic, now that the household charge will not be scrapped what is the next step for the anti campaign? Or does their campaign end here?

Hijpo

MagicSean wrote: »

Can she not just give them a copy of the death cert? That should sort out any ambiguity.

I thought the exact same thing, apparently she has, they keep appologising and she'll be contacted in 10 days

As regards the household tax not being scrapped, thats fine. i still wont be paying, they havent changed anything in the way of how they cut spending starting with salaries, tax breaks, expenses and pensions for current TD's and ministers aswell as pensions for previous ministers, TD's and taoiseachs. Celtic tiger pay rates in times of austerity it baffels me how they see this as being ok.

Bullseye1

donalg1 wrote: »

Domestic water charges will be introduced shortly and not a moment too soon, providing a free service to the public while spending millions to provide that service is crazy and unsustainable.

I agree with most of your post but i do disagree that water is provided for free. We pay taxes. Where do these taxes go if they are not paying for services? I do agree however that maybe we are not paying enough to maintain these services but I'm sure you are aware that local authorities were given millions by developers in the form of levies.

I've just got notice of planning for 4 houses plus extension to an existing one and the local authority is looking for €112,000 in levies and €10,000 bond. Where does this money go and where did the millions go during the boom?

Cesium Clock

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I've just got notice of planning for 4 houses plus extension to an existing one and the local authority is looking for €112,000 in levies and €10,000 bond. Where does this money go and where did the millions go during the boom?

a good few millions went on new council buildings,