Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Stiffler2

still have testicles dangling between our legs.

If you paid the household charge then Why ?

Anyone have the figures of how many haven't paid versus how many have paid ? Last I heard it was roughly 50/50 or 60/40

What do you now think will happen to those that haven't paid it ??
can't send 600,000 + to jail can ya ?


I am also looking for some sort of drain dampener so I can run my taps in the sink without hearing the trickle of water all the time, do these exist ?

Freddie59

hondasam wrote: »

I dunno, what do you suggest, make thousands of PS workers redundant? You cannot expect people to work for less and less pay.

Realistically Sam what else is there to do? If this were a private company that is what would happen. What do you suggest instead?

Fart

600,000+? Unlikely as they don't even have enough room for a dozen or so politicians and bankers.

chin_grin

It would seem that roughly 100% of you didn't just post on to the existing thread on this matter.

All 91 pages of it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056592766

Biggins

You might be better asking this question in the thread already here in this section about the Household tax.
I think you might find some answers there already.

KeithM89_old

Merged

Dravokivich

Stiffler2 wrote: »

If you paid the household charge then Why ?

My parents paid for it because they are in the demographic that would be targetted for not paying it.

Stiffler2

chin_grin wrote: »

It would seem that roughly 100% of you didn't just post on to the existing thread on this matter.

to be fair that thread has disappeared a few pages in.
Thread title also suggested the past "Are you going to pay the hosuehold charge"

I should have actually called this one "Did you pay the household charge" in the present tense

meh

OMARS_COMING_

The goverment really messed up this one,what a shambles this turned out to be for them.

O well at least they tried,right?

Freddie59

donalg1 wrote: »

Only difference is one is a Private sector company and the other is the Public sector.

The private sector company is about making profits and if they dont then they go bust and dont exist anymore, whereas the public sector is about providing services to people not about profits.

If you want to compare the two then maybe its time the Guards start charging fees for call outs, the ambo's and fire brigade increase their call out fees, LA's begin charging for the services they provide, say for instance they charge people who apply for housing or increase the other charges, such as rents etc...,

Domestic water charges will be introduced shortly and not a moment too soon, providing a free service to the public while spending millions to provide that service is crazy and unsustainable.

One way the Public Sector funds itself is through taxation this has always been the way and will continue to be the way. If it was a private company it would just fold and not exist anymore, and sure wouldnt the country be grand without guards, nurses and a fire service, water services, affordable housing for the disadvantaged and all the other services they provide.

The Public sector need to increase its revenue take, while cutting costs or working more efficiently same way as SW needs to be cut immediately, same way as fraud in SW needs to be stamped out given, same way as an across the board raising of Income Tax needs to be introduced. Same way as a property tax and water charges need to be brought in.

If you want LA's to provide you with services on a par with other european countries then surely we have to pay the same.

While we're paying their workers twice the European average? The private sector is about profits. But also keeping a company stable. Take it back a bit. A private household is not about profit. It is about paying your way and providing for your family - WITHIN YOUR MEANS. Which is what the State is not doing. It is far more worried about keeping PS/CS wages artificially high, along with their "entitlements" than it is about the tax-paying citizens who are keeping this gravy train on the rails.

Not only does SW fraud need stamping out, but SW "benefits" and "entitlements" needs slashing. I spoke to someone working in a SW office recently, and it is truly staggering what the tax payers of this country are forking out for.

KeithM89_old

Stiffler2 wrote: »

to be fair that thread has disappeared a few pages in.

No it hasnt, the thread has been on page one every day for months now.

Freddie59

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The private sector and self employed people have had to. Why should the public sector or social welfare system be any different.

Both are expenditures and when the private sector is no longer making the same income the government has to cut its cloth. So far what they have done is hit everyone including public sector workers with USC, raise VAT, lower certain levels of staff in public sector areas but not in the right areas (management).

The usual question the Yes side ask is where else can money come from. Simple it's called savings and removal of waste.

Indeed. It's called 'cutting your cloth to measure'. The Government, along with CS/PS workers seem to think that we can borrow €400m a week forever. Boy is that train heading for a brick wall.

Freddie59

MagicSean wrote: »

Can she not just give them a copy of the death cert? That should sort out any ambiguity.

Maybe some efficiency on their part would be preferable Sean.

xflyer

donalg1 wrote: »

They are costing me money when I am paying for a service that I dont receive despite their assurances that I will receive this service yet I still have to constantly phone them and try get this sorted time and again talking to some useless person on the phone for the millionth time to get something sorted.

I do agree with you about protecting employers and employees in a balanced way.

I would also imagine if a public sector worker was really that bad at their job they would be transferred to somewhere they could possibly handle, however I wouldnt be surprised if this wasnt the way either.

If a company is not providing the service you want. You can quote Bill Cullen, 'You're fired' and go somewhere else. Not so with public service. Having said that in most of my dealings with PS organisations. I have had nothing but good service, sometimes above and beyond. The speed at which I got a tax refund was something else.

But that's neither here nor there. The reality is that the PS is too big and expensive in it's current state. Right now it's sheltered by the Croke Park agreement. But that cannot go on.

You suggest that PS workers not up to the job are transferred to something may happen but the most common situation is that they are left in place and everyone around them has to carry them. Worse still they are sometimes promoted so they can take their incompetence to a new level. These are the people who need to be made redundant. These people exist in the private sector too but they're often got rid of. If they're kept it's doesn't cost the taxpayer anything.

In any case this government has shown no stomach to take on the PS unions. So it's higher taxes for all.

As for the household charge. The bluff and bluster will go on for a while to try and scare the waverers into paying. But in the end nothing will be done because Kenny has no stomach for taking on the people. The most obvious targets are the significant no campaigners. They will be looking to be prosecuted. Because in reality it will be very difficult to find the non payers. It won't be long before those who paid will feel very annoyed indeed when they realise the non payers won't be touched.

Duiske

gerryo777 wrote: »

Yea, classy woman ok.

I think she was just pointing out to the protesters that the charge works out at only €2 per week.

MagicSean

Freddie59 wrote: »

Maybe some efficiency on their part would be preferable Sean.

In what way? they need the death certificate as proof.

Freddie59

MagicSean wrote: »

In what way? they need the death certificate as proof.

*Sigh*. Would it be too much to ask for a unified compter system across all Government Departments (without the usual incompetence) with everyone's details on it? So that, say, if someone DIES a little box will flash onscreen to tell you so.

Freddie59

xflyer wrote: »

If a company is not providing the service you want. You can quote Bill Cullen, 'You're fired' and go somewhere else. Not so with public service. Having said that in most of my dealings with PS organisations. I have had nothing but good service, sometimes above and beyond. The speed at which I got a tax refund was something else.

But that's neither here nor there. The reality is that the PS is too big and expensive in it's current state. Right now it's sheltered by the Croke Park agreement. But that cannot go on.

You suggest that PS workers not up to the job are transferred to something may happen but the most common situation is that they are left in place and everyone around them has to carry them. Worse still they are sometimes promoted so they can take their incompetence to a new level. These are the people who need to be made redundant. These people exist in the private sector too but they're often got rid of. If they're kept it's doesn't cost the taxpayer anything.

In any case this government has shown no stomach to take on the PS unions. So it's higher taxes for all.

As for the household charge. The bluff and bluster will go on for a while to try and scare the waverers into paying. But in the end nothing will be done because Kenny has no stomach for taking on the people. The most obvious targets are the significant no campaigners. They will be looking to be prosecuted. Because in reality it will be very difficult to find the non payers. It won't be long before those who paid will feel very annoyed indeed when they realise the non payers won't be touched.

Well said. What seems to be practiced is FUMU (FcukUpMoveUp)

mikom

Stiffler2 wrote: »

still have testicles dangling between our legs.

If you paid the household charge then Why ?

Anyone have the figures of how many haven't paid versus how many have paid ? Last I heard it was roughly 50/50 or 60/40

What do you now think will happen to those that haven't paid it ??
can't send 600,000 + to jail can ya ?


I am also looking for some sort of drain dampener so I can run my taps in the sink without hearing the trickle of water all the time, do these exist ?

Try using one of the household charge "final demand" leaflets.

Am Chile

Stiffler2 wrote: »

still have testicles dangling between our legs.

If you paid the household charge then Why ?

Anyone have the figures of how many haven't paid versus how many have paid ? Last I heard it was roughly 50/50 or 60/40

What do you now think will happen to those that haven't paid it ??
can't send 600,000 + to jail can ya ?


I am also looking for some sort of drain dampener so I can run my taps in the sink without hearing the trickle of water all the time, do these exist ?

There’s been a fair bit of commentary on twitter re. the household charge numbers and speculating in the media. Having just watched RTE1 News at 6pm it seems incredible to me that the Local Government Management Agency seems to have little idea as to how many housing units are liable for the household charge. It seems even more odd that number seems to be floating between 1.6m and 1.8m. There seems to be a conflation between households (1.654m according to Census 2011) and housing stock minus exemptions/waivers (1.755m based on calculation below, probably 1.72m +/- 20k with the other minor exemptions taken out). It is housing stock that is the base for the household charge (a vacant house is just as liable as an occupied house – this is a tax on property not occupancy). Namawinelake has a post up about who is and isn’t eligible. Working off the data contained in his post (I’ve updated a couple of his figures to Census 2011 data and added a couple, but otherwise I’m quoting his figures and sources) we come up with the following. I]On request, I have updated this post to match the data to the exemptions and waivers exactly as set out on the [URL="https://www.householdcharge.ie/"][COLOR=#0066cc]householdcharge.ie[/COLOR][/URL] website - 21.15pm, Apr 1st[/I
What is eligible:
All housing units in the state, with seven exemptions and two waivers
Housing units in the state according to Census 2011: 1,994,845
What is exempt:
(1) Residential properties that are part of the trading stock of a business and have not been sold or been the source of any income since construction
18,638 unoccupied vacant housing units in unfinished estates the vast majority of which are unsold (under-construction were not counted in Census), plus small amount of unsold one-offs
(2) Residential property vested in a Minister of the Government or the Health Service Executive
Not known but small, ask govt depts and HSE
(3) Residential property vested in a housing authority, including property where households are purchasing their homes under the Shared Ownership Scheme and where the local authority still retains an ownership stake,
129,033 (renting social housing, Census 2011, Table 39), DECLG should have exact figure
23,547 (being bought from LAs, Census 2006 – I can’t find in Census 2011), DECLG should have exact figure
(4) Voluntary and co-operative housing,
14,942 (renting voluntary housing, Census 2011, Table 39)
(5) Residential property subject to commercial rates and wholly used as a dwelling,
Not known but small, ask local authorities (there was a question on the Census, Table 38, but the class also includes apts in converted houses – total was 27,666 so know it was less than that – could ask CSO if it could disaggregate; )
(6) Residential property owned by certain charities or comprised in a discretionary trust, and
Not known but small
(7) Residential property where a person has to leave their house due to long-term mental or physical infirmity (e.g. a person that has moved into a nursing home).
Not known but small, possibly ask HSE. There was a question on the Census. Table 11 shows 28,395 people live in nursing and children’s homes, not all in nursing home will own property, so know less than that; could see if CSO can disaggregate.
What is waivered:
(1) Owners of residential property entitled to mortgage interest supplement
19,000 (mortgage interest relief, Keane Report), Dept Soc Protection should have exact figure
(2) Owners of residential property located in certain prescribed unfinished housing estates
34,000 (category 3/4 unfinished estates, Money Guide Ireland, exact figure can be obtained from the Housing Development Survey undertaken by DECLG)
Houses eligible – a calculation based on above:
1,994,845 (housing units, Census 2011)
-18,638 (unoccupied vacant housing units unsold, Housing Development Survey, DECLG, 2011)
-129,033 (renting social housing, Census 2011, Table 39)
-14,942 (renting voluntary housing, Census 2011, Table 39)
-23,547 (being bought from LAs, Census 2006 – I can’t find in Census 2011)
-19,000 (mortgage interest relief, Keane Report)
-34,000 (category 3/4 unfinished estates, Money Guide Ireland)
= 1,755,685 (this still needs other small amounts of property taken-off namely exemptions 2, 5, 6, 7 – all of these will be very low in number and should not substantially alter this figure, probably 1.72m +/- 20k based on data above) (update Apr 2nd: also see my comment (no. 10 in list below)).
Households paid, minus the 12,500 who have registered but qualify for the waiver
621,717 (already processed)
+89,000 (by post awaiting processing)
+ 82,175 (registered in local authority offices yesterday)
= 792,892
The percentage of those paid, based on those figures = 45.16% (54.84% left to pay

http://irelandafternama.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/household-charge-numbers/

smash

Is there anyone else who hasn't paid that has received no form of notification or information at all by post?

Any post I've received to do with the household charge has been from the don't pay camp.

Noreen1

I hadn't received any information in the post until i received a "final notice" -
on Friday, 30th March.:D:D

I laughed - then I binned it!:p

Royal Legend

donalg1 wrote: »

Only difference is one is a Private sector company and the other is the Public sector.

The private sector company is about making profits and if they dont then they go bust and dont exist anymore, whereas the public sector is about providing services to people not about profits.

If you want to compare the two then maybe its time the Guards start charging fees for call outs, the ambo's and fire brigade increase their call out fees, LA's begin charging for the services they provide, say for instance they charge people who apply for housing or increase the other charges, such as rents etc...,

Domestic water charges will be introduced shortly and not a moment too soon, providing a free service to the public while spending millions to provide that service is crazy and unsustainable.

One way the Public Sector funds itself is through taxation this has always been the way and will continue to be the way. If it was a private company it would just fold and not exist anymore, and sure wouldnt the country be grand without guards, nurses and a fire service, water services, affordable housing for the disadvantaged and all the other services they provide.

The Public sector need to increase its revenue take, while cutting costs or working more efficiently same way as SW needs to be cut immediately, same way as fraud in SW needs to be stamped out given, same way as an across the board raising of Income Tax needs to be introduced. Same way as a property tax and water charges need to be brought in.

If you want LA's to provide you with services on a par with other european countries then surely we have to pay the same.

Pay the same as who, different countries have different tax regimes, some people are comparing us to NI and the average service charge of €1400 per annum, but they get a lot for this €1400. if you were to add up the costs of what we are paying for the same benefits that people get in NI based on the €1400. then we are already paying more than twice that figure. One clean example is school books for our children, which is free in NI, but we pay upwards of €500 plus per child.

I have no issue paying a service charge, once I am getting a service, but we are not, so why pay it

Lastly your comment about the water charges is incorrect, we are going to be charged for our water because the LA's cannot be bothered to fix the leaks in the water system that is costing millions of euro's every year.

This highlights exactly why we should not pay the household charge, we have inept LA's that are happy to plod along wasting our money and charging us more, rather than sorting out their inefficencies.

I do not think anyone that has not paid the service charge would be against paying a service charge, once that charge was fair and once we could all see that we are getting reasonable value for money and that it is not being squandered by either the government or the LA's

smash

Noreen1 wrote: »

I hadn't received any information in the post until i received a "final notice"

I know someone who paid it and 2 weeks later received a "final notice". Fkn morons :rolleyes:

donalg1

Royal Legend wrote: »

Pay the same as who, different countries have different tax regimes, some people are comparing us to NI and the average service charge of €1400 per annum, but they get a lot for this €1400. if you were to add up the costs of what we are paying for the same benefits that people get in NI based on the €1400. then we are already paying more than twice that figure. One clean example is school books for our children, which is free in NI, but we pay upwards of €500 plus per child.

I have no issue paying a service charge, once I am getting a service, but we are not, so why pay it

Lastly your comment about the water charges is incorrect, we are going to be charged for our water because the LA's cannot be bothered to fix the leaks in the water system that is costing millions of euro's every year.

This highlights exactly why we should not pay the household charge, we have inept LA's that are happy to plod along wasting our money and charging us more, rather than sorting out their inefficencies.

I do not think anyone that has not paid the service charge would be against paying a service charge, once that charge was fair and once we could all see that we are getting reasonable value for money and that it is not being squandered by either the government or the LA's

So it doesnt cost anything to treat the water ensuring it meets EU standards, doesnt cost anything to keep the water in the pipes? It costs an absolute fortune and the LA's receive nothing back in return for providing houses with water.

You cant honestly believe that households shouldnt be paying for water. When households are metered at the tap then leakages wont be a factor as you will be paying for what you use following the polluter pays principle.

hondasam

Hijpo wrote: »

A friend of mine works in the local social welfare office and was out sick or had time off for 2 weeks. Some young one was brought in to keep on top of her work an when she came back the 2 week stack of files was still on her desk. Maybe they need better screening at interviews or something i dont know but the ammount of people that pass the comment of "lazy/useless bastards" is unreal and they cant all be wrong. Im not saying every PS worker or yourself is like that but the ones that are really do give you a terrible reputation between loosing files or just being idiots. Another example, i have a friend who was in a car crash with her partner over 3 years ago and hes was killed. They had a 1 year old daughter at the time and my friend applied for a medical card after the accident, a year on and the social welfare is still claiming that the father of her child is making payments towards her it has to be reviewed again surely they can tell wether someone is dead or not??

I don't disagree that there are some incompetent/lazy people in the PS but these people would be lazy no matter where they worked. It's easy to give a good interview but until you start a job an employer cannot know how good you will be.There is a bad attitude in the PS and maybe making a few thousand redundant might get the others to sit up and smell the coffee.


I do not know the circumstances of your friend and her child, I would ask was he the biological father? A death certificate is all that's needed and no matter how incompetent any department is it would not take this long to sort out if it were a straight forward case.

lividduck

Royal Legend wrote: »

Pay the same as who, different countries have different tax regimes, some people are comparing us to NI and the average service charge of €1400 per annum, but they get a lot for this €1400. if you were to add up the costs of what we are paying for the same benefits that people get in NI based on the €1400. then we are already paying more than twice that figure. One clean example is school books for our children, which is free in NI, but we pay upwards of €500 plus per child.

I have no issue paying a service charge, once I am getting a service, but we are not, so why pay it

Lastly your comment about the water charges is incorrect, we are going to be charged for our water because the LA's cannot be bothered to fix the leaks in the water system that is costing millions of euro's every year.

This highlights exactly why we should not pay the household charge, we have inept LA's that are happy to plod along wasting our money and charging us more, rather than sorting out their inefficencies.

I do not think anyone that has not paid the service charge would be against paying a service charge, once that charge was fair and once we could all see that we are getting reasonable value for money and that it is not being squandered by either the government or the LA's

I have 4 children, and i have never paid (even getting every book new) €500 on books per child.
That said we get crap services in this country.

hondasam

donalg1 wrote: »

I would also imagine if a public sector worker was really that bad at their job they would be transferred to somewhere they could possibly handle, however I wouldnt be surprised if this wasnt the way either.

Unfortunately it's not that simple, you cannot just transfer someone, there is a waiting list and transfers are not easy to get. Some could work it to their advantage to get a transfer to a different department.
Everyone needs a little time to get to know the job but after a month you should be well settled and know what you are doing. There has always been the attitude that PS workers are never let go and this is true but it will change.

davet82

whats all this i hear about a house hold charge?

lugha

davet82 wrote: »

whats all this i hear about a house hold charge?

House hold charge? There'll be a lad (in a blue shirt likely) with a clipboard calling to your home looking for 100 notes in the next couple of months. You need to assembled your house hold and lead them in a charge down your path to drive him away! :pac: