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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #1442
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    black francis wrote: »
    Indeed, and public policy should not be designed around trying not to antagonise them.

    Public policy should be designed around fairness to all and not around discriminating against people just because they own their own homes.

    I'll ask again, why should only people who own their homes have to pay for the services used by everyone?


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    #1443
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    black francis wrote: »
    Given that even the most vehement anti household charge protestors probably accept that some form of revenue raising is required, what is the preference?

    They are really only 2 choices, consumption taxes or income taxes.

    Which is the household charge?


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    #1444
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Public policy should be designed around fairness to all and not around discriminating against people just because they own their own homes.

    I'll ask again, why should only people who own their homes have to pay for the services used by everyone?

    It's nothing to do with local services.

    It's everything to do with balancing the budget.

    Goverenment have shot themselves in the foot with their attempt to link the payment to services. I could have told them the problems which would arise trying to sell this message, and I'm a lot cheaper than their advisors.


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    #1445
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    mikom wrote: »
    Which is the household charge?

    The advantage of it is, that it's neither.


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    #1446
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You were all for good manners the other day. Do you not think it would be polite to allow a visitor to introduce themselves before killing them?

    It really looks like the pro-tax brigade are the most disingenuous people on the planet.

    I simply made the point that................................. ah, forget it!

    BTW dx, there's a better chance of what I said happening in your neck of the woods, than mine!


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    #1447
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    black francis wrote: »
    The advantage of it is, that it's neither.

    So, not related to consumption or income?


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    #1448
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    black francis wrote: »
    Given that even the most vehement anti household charge protestors probably accept that some form of revenue raising is required, what is the preference?

    They are really only 2 choices, consumption taxes or income taxes.



    take your pick Francis, either suits me. my real preference, though, would be for all the waste to stop and the gravy train to pull up dead on the track;)


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    #1449
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    mikom wrote: »
    So, not related to consumption or income?

    Were you planning on answering the original question or asking the same one over again?


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    #1450
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    black francis wrote: »
    Were you planning on answering the original question or asking the same one over again?

    Is the household charge related to consumption or income?


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    #1451
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    black francis wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with local services.

    It's everything to do with balancing the budget.

    Goverenment have shot themselves in the foot with their attempt to link the payment to services. I could have told them the problems which would arise trying to sell this message, and I'm a lot cheaper than their advisors.


    How come then that most of the arguments from the pro side have been about local services etc etc.

    Thing is, even if they collect 10 times what their demanding this year, it still won't balance the budget.

    Lying to the people won't do FG/Labour any good, we had enough of that with the last shower.


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    #1452
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    mikom wrote: »
    Is the household charge related to consumption or income?

    What do you think Mikom?


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    #1453
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    How come then that most of the arguments from the pro side have been about local services etc etc.

    Thing is, even if they collect 10 times what their demanding this year, it still won't balance the budget.

    Lying to the people won't do FG/Labour any good, we had enough of that with the last shower.

    Don't know, I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, and of course a property charge in isolation is not a panacea for our countries problems. It is I believe though, one of the necessary measures which need to be taken.


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    #1454
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    black francis wrote: »
    What do you think Mikom?

    1.
    If it is not income related then how come the supposed "low income" county council/corporation occupants get a free pass.

    2.
    How should I pay for my household charge.......... if not from my income.
    Pluck some fivers from my money tree perhaps......


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    #1455
    mapaco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 155 ✭✭mapaco


    lugha wrote: »

    But because you have issues with the minor details of how a democratically elected government raises revenue for a state, I don’t think so.

    Where would you draw the line?

    we have no street lighting or playground or library.....people in council estates do-wheres the fairness?

    people in ireland have finally said enough-we've been sheepish idiots for too long-every banker, developer and corrupt official in the land walking free and us muppets taking the fall for them.
    their mess-our problem-f*ck that
    i will never ever pay the household charge-its the principal more than the cost. its for NOTHING just government sayin we need more money and makin up excuses for what the 100euros is for.
    every other country that pays property tax knows WHAT they are paying for.

    STOP TAKING IT UP THE ASS from the govt people!!!!


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    #1456
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,756 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    black francis wrote: »
    It's nothing to do with local services.

    It's everything to do with balancing the budget.

    Goverenment have shot themselves in the foot with their attempt to link the payment to services. I could have told them the problems which would arise trying to sell this message, and I'm a lot cheaper than their advisors.
    So you admit that people will not get any services for their money ?


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    #1457
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    black francis wrote: »
    Don't know, I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, and of course a property charge in isolation is not a panacea for our countries problems. It is I believe though, one of the necessary measures which need to be taken.

    Maybe a fair property charge, one which everyone should pay and not just one section of the population and maybe in a few years time when the country is back on it's feet. Maybe, just maybe!


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    #1458
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    mikom wrote: »
    1.
    If it is not income related then how come the supposed "low income" county council/corporation occupants get a free pass.

    2.
    How should I pay for my household charge.......... if not from my income.
    Pluck some fivers from my money tree perhaps......

    It's not a direct tax on your income, therefore not an income tax.

    Ultimately you pay for everything out of your income, so I'm not sure what your point is. The main problem with an direct income tax, is that it dis-incentivises people to work, which is that last thing this country needs right now.


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    #1459
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    tayto lover wrote: »
    So you admit that people will not get any services for their money ?

    Admit?

    You really should pay more attention to my posts Tayto, I never once claimed this to be the case.


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    #1460
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    black francis wrote: »
    It's not a direct tax on your income, therefore not an income tax.

    Ultimately you pay for everything out of your income, so I'm not sure what your point is. The main problem with an direct income tax, is that it dis-incentivises people to work, which is that last thing this country needs right now.


    Anddddddddddd back to question 1.
    Surely a free pass for those in county council/corporation houses dis-incentivises people to work.

    One or the other.
    You can't have it both ways.


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    #1461
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    mikom wrote: »
    Anddddddddddd back to question 1.
    Surely a free pass for those in county council/corporation houses dis-incentivises people to work.

    One or the other.
    You can't have it both ways.

    You've hit the nail on the head there milkom, nail on the head!


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    #1462
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    mikom wrote: »
    Anddddddddddd back to question 1.
    Surely a free pass for those in county council/corporation houses dis-incentivises people to work.

    One or the other.
    You can't have it both ways.

    How so? Do you get kicked out of your Council house if you get a job?


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    #1463
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    mikom wrote: »
    black francis wrote: »
    It's not a direct tax on your income, therefore not an income tax.

    Ultimately you pay for everything out of your income, so I'm not sure what your point is. The main problem with an direct income tax, is that it dis-incentivises people to work, which is that last thing this country needs right now.


    Anddddddddddd back to question 1.
    Surely a free pass for those in county council/corporation houses dis-incentivises people to work.

    One or the other.
    You can't have it both ways.

    People in LA housing have jobs too. I do agree they should be made pay an equivalent charge though, the exemptions annoyed me more than paying the charge did.

    If I had my way I would make all LA tenants pay and scrap every other exemption and then consider allowing OAP's to be exempt


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    #1464
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    black francis wrote: »
    How so? Do you get kicked out of your Council house if you get a job?

    No, you get to stay there but you still don't have to pay a discriminatory tax.


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    #1465
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    donalg1 wrote: »
    People in LA housing have jobs too. I do agree they should be made pay an equivalent charge though, the exemptions annoyed me more than paying the charge did.

    If I had my way I would make all LA tenants pay and scrap every other exemption and then consider allowing OAP's to be exempt

    Jesus Donal, we agree on something.....


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    #1466
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    No, you get to stay there but you still don't have to pay a discriminatory tax.

    And how is this a dis-incentive against working?


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    #1467
    mapaco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 155 ✭✭mapaco


    black francis wrote: »
    How so? Do you get kicked out of your Council house if you get a job?

    very smart-i dont know where you're living but i would guess 80% of the council estate occupants in ireland are unemployed and not working because they have more money being at home


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    #1468
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    black francis wrote: »
    How so? Do you get kicked out of your Council house if you get a job?

    Do you get kicked out if you stay on the dole?
    Do you pay the household charge if you stay perpetually on the dole in your Council house.
    Shur why would you bother.
    You see how this works............ the whole dis-incentive to work thing
    donalg1 wrote: »
    People in LA housing have jobs too. I do agree they should be made pay an equivalent charge though, the exemptions annoyed me more than paying the charge did.

    If I had my way I would make all LA tenants pay and scrap every other exemption and then consider allowing OAP's to be exempt

    Seems the government have not thought this through.
    Shame on them.


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    #1469
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    black francis wrote: »
    And how is this a dis-incentive against working?
    So someone who lives in a council house, pays a small amount of rent and has a decent enough job should be subsidised even more by someone in a similar job who just happens to own their home?


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    #1470
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    donalg1 wrote: »
    People in LA housing have jobs too. I do agree they should be made pay an equivalent charge though, the exemptions annoyed me more than paying the charge did.

    If I had my way I would make all LA tenants pay and scrap every other exemption and then consider allowing OAP's to be exempt

    agree with everything except this.
    OAP's have been protected enough in past budgets. They bear as much responsibility for our current situation as any of us. Arguably they bear more responsibility than other demographics, as they generally voted for FF, who bought them with a series of generous budgets.

    I would accept that there should be a mechanism whereby OAP's on low income could apply for a waiver, but there is plenty of untapped tax money we should be getting from well-off OAP's.


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    #1471
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    black francis wrote: »
    And how is this a dis-incentive against working?
    So someone who lives in a council house, pays a small amount of rent and has a decent enough job should be subsidised even more by someone in a similar job who just happens to own their home?

    Social housing tenants probably avail of these services more than anyone else too yet are exempt. Ridiculous.


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