Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Frank Black

gerryo777 wrote: »

Maybe there's a bit of French in francis somewhere.
Surrender early!

I did have a croissant for breakfast.

Freddie59

lugha wrote: »

I think you have this the wrong way around.

It is not for the yes side, or anyone else, to convince anyone that they should abide by the laws of the land in a democracy. The onus surely is on those who would break the law to make the argument to justify this (The fact that this seemingly self evident point seems to be lost on so many probably helps explains why we have so many tribunals).

And IMO, the no side have failed to make any substantial argument that had not being soundly rebutted.

They argue that there is an element of unfairness to the charge, but have no answer when it is pointed out that there is an element of unfairness in almost every tax we are obliged to pay.

They argue that that there is a fundamental reason not to have a tax/charge on people’s homes but cannot give an adequate explanation as to why most other countries do not see this difficulty.

The argue that there are many examples of waste in government / LA spending but ignore the fact that wastage is addressed by focusing on how money is spent, not on how it is raised.

They argue that the people cannot afford it, ignoring the fact that the people will be footing the bill, one way or another.

They argue that they have already paid stamp duty on their homes and should pay more tax on the same thing but ignore the fact that this is exactly what happens with motor tax and other goods.

The argue that the money goes to pay off our debts but seemingly fail to appreciate that the only way to avoid this was to vote for parties in the general election who gave clear commitments that they would not do so, and FG / Lab were most definitely not in that category.

In short, I think quite a few on the no side simply responded emotively rather than rationally to the HHC. They are protesting against this charge because they can, not because there is something uniquely and fundamentally wrong with is.

TBH the "household charge" is almost a slideshow, with new farces taking place daily (the Teachers Conferences being the current one). The "charge" only served to highlight the dire financial situation we find ourselves in, and those who point out the obvious are charged with being a "no" side.

I myself am on the side of an Ireland that will recognise it's financial limitations and respond appropriately, i.e. tackle the root causes as oppsed to trying to impose pinprick effect taxes on the already-burdened Private Sector workers.

bgrizzley

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Not half of the people, a bit less than half of private property owners. The very group the raggle taggle motley crew will be coming after with their wealth tax if they get the chance.

If its the political left you speak of (arent Labour supposed in there somewhere) ill protest them too if it comes to it.
Politicians, left, right or centre, they are all the same to me,(and i'd guess most ordinary people). they'll bed down with whoever helps them grasp the reins of power and say and do whatever it takes to keep them.

Frank Black

Freddie59 wrote: »

TBH the "household charge" is almost a slideshow, with new farces taking place daily (the Teachers Conferences being the current one). The "charge" only served to highlight the dire financial situation we find ourselves in, and those who point out the obvious are charged with being a "no" side.

I myself am on the side of an Ireland that will recognise it's financial limitations and respond appropriately, i.e. tackle the root causes as oppsed to trying to impose pinprick effect taxes on the already-burdened Private Sector workers.

How much are we borrowing weekly again?

Freddie59

black francis wrote: »

How much are we borrowing weekly again?

Ah you're coming out of the sand at last.:) Next you'll be actually recognising it. When its too late.

dxhound2005

Freddie59 wrote: »

Ah you're coming out of the sand at last.:) Next you'll be actually recognising it. When its too late.

Have a look at this Freddie and try to stop worrying about the €400 million.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

You'd be better off paying your €111 and putting your own house in order.

Freddie59

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Have a look at this Freddie and try to stop worrying about the €400 million.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

You'd be better off paying your €111 and putting your own house in order.

But, to put our own house in order, a good place to start would be not spending more than you take in - and paying your employees accordingly.:rolleyes: I see you ignored my earlier explanation as, like your ilk, you are in complete denial.

lugha

Freddie59 wrote: »

Ah you're coming out of the sand at last.:) Next you'll be actually recognising it. When its too late.

The "recognising" that needs to be done Freddie involves looking a couple of moves ahead and well, recognising that the effect of a success in this silly anti HHC charge campaign will be to make it less likely rather than more so that the government will do anything soon about cutting PS costs.

You complain about the teachers unions talking tough. Well what in the name of all things bright, hairy and beautiful would you expect any lobby group to do if they sense that the government might buckle under pressure?

Anyone hoping the government will take on the PS unions are being rather short sighted in opposing the relatively trivial HHC. But I suspect like many lessons we learn in this country, we will endeavour to learn this one the hard way.

mikom

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You'd be better off paying your €111 and putting your own house in order.

Put turf on the fire..... with all the doors and windows open left open.

Freddie59

mikom wrote: »

Put turf on the fire..... with all the doors and windows open left open.

Couldn't have said it better. Great example.:)

Freddie59

lugha wrote: »

The "recognising" that needs to be done Freddie involves looking a couple of moves ahead and well, recognising that the effect of a success in this silly anti HHC charge campaign will be to make it less likely rather than more so that the government will do anything soon about cutting PS costs.

You complain about the teachers unions talking tough. Well what in the name of all things bright, hairy and beautiful would you expect any lobby group to do if they sense that the government might buckle under pressure?

Anyone hoping the government will take on the PS unions are being rather short sighted in opposing the relatively trivial HHC. But I suspect like many lessons we learn in this country, we will endeavour to learn this one the hard way.

Lugha, it is inevitable, given Ruairi Quinn's comments yesterday. It was spelled out starkly. The money is running out. And this will happen very soon. All the strikes and protests won't matter a damn. And the "household" charge will become what it is - insignificant.

It also transpires that some 1,500 teachers are on over €100k a year. This is sheer lunacy. Quinn is right. They are completely in denial.

dxhound2005

Freddie59 wrote: »

Couldn't have said it better. Great example.:)

Just an excuse not to pay. You want everything in the country running to your satisfaction before you obey the law. Not how it works.

Freddie59

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Just an excuse not to pay. You want everything in the country running to your satisfaction before you obey the law. Not how it works.

When "the law" starts to obey the laws of economics and treat its workers according to its financial income I might consider it.

Slick50

lugha wrote: »

I didn’t read all of your link. Perhaps you could help me out and tell me the paragraph where it suggests that when a government says a deadline is on a particular date rather than on or before that date then you’ve got yourself a banana republic?

It would be a waste of time anyhow, because you just don't want to see it. The deadline is stated on their own information site as before. I posted a link, see it for yourself.

So they ignore their own legislation, because it suits them, and fail to collect the extra revenue they have stated they will collect gladly. Sure it was only another €10-€15m. I suppose they needed to get a few more "patriots" first, for moral support.

What happened to "people have had three months to pay, there'll be no extension"

lugha

Slick50 wrote: »

It would be a waste of time anyhow, because you just don't want to see it.

No, I wouldn't see it because it isn’t there.

I mentioned in an earlier post that there was extensive variety in the ranks of the “no” side. But there are a couple of traits which are quite common to a good number of them. And one of those traits evident on this thread is their absolute determination to misread / misunderstood / wilfully ignore the argument that they are replying to. I suggest you read again what I posted, and not what possibly assumed I posted. (You may also want to check the link to which I was referring)

I make no argument at all about how exactly the government specified the closing date for registering / paying. I did argue that for anyone to suggest that the country is a banana republic because a literal interpretation of the deadline would prohibit payments on the final day (Saturday) is utterly preposterous, easily the most ridiculous argument (in a rather strong field!) put forward by the no side.

gerryo777

lugha wrote: »

for anyone to suggest that the country is a banana republic because a literal interpretation of the deadline would prohibit payments on the final day (Saturday) is utterly preposterous, easily the most ridiculous argument (in a rather strong field!) put forward by the no side.

This country is a banana republic, get over it.
Look at ahern and how he ran the place and then look where he's giving his after dinner speeches!

mikom

Freddie59 wrote: »

Lugha, it is inevitable, given Ruairi Quinn's comments yesterday. It was spelled out starkly. The money is running out. And this will happen very soon. All the strikes and protests won't matter a damn. And the "household" charge will become what it is - insignificant.

It also transpires that some 1,500 teachers are on over €100k a year. This is sheer lunacy. Quinn is right. They are completely in denial.

Here's another couple of questions for you.

Which country has the bigger army out of Ireland and England?

Ok, fairly sure you know the answer.................. of course it is England.
A massive ground force, air force, and navy.

Now, which little country would you say has the most Generals out of Ireland and England?

Yep you guessed it................... "old fur coat and no kickers" Ireland


Open another window, and throw some more turf on the fire.

gerryo777

mikom wrote: »

Here's another couple of questions for you.

Which country has the bigger army out of Ireland and England?

Ok, fairly sure you know the answer.................. of course it is England.
A massive ground force, air force, and navy.

Now, which little country would you say has the most Generals out of Ireland and England?

Yep you guessed it................... "old fur coat and no kickers" Ireland


Open another window, and throw some more turf on the fire.

Has anyone read this?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html

lugha

gerryo777 wrote: »

This country is a banana republic, get over it.

Good man Gerry! In replying to my post where I pointed out that many on the no side fail to grasp the point they are replying to, you fail to grasp the point that you replied to.

For the record, I have offered no opinion for or against the contention that we live in a banana republic. I did say that a minor error (at worst) in the manner in which the deadline for the HHC was specified does not a banana republic make.

I suppose this goes someway to explaining why the no side seem incapable of producing even a semi-cogent argument against this charge. :rolleyes:

Slick50

lugha wrote: »

I make no argument at all about how exactly the government specified the closing date for registering / paying. I did argue that for anyone to suggest that the country is a banana republic because a literal interpretation of the deadline would prohibit payments on the final day (Saturday) is utterly preposterous, easily the most ridiculous argument (in a rather strong field!) put forward by the no side.

All I hear here is, "Blah! blah! blah!, don't bother me with the facts!, legislation is only a guideline, for my interpretation"

By what date must it be paid before late penalties apply?

Payment must be made online or paper forms received with payment before 31st of March 2012.

good luck living in denial.

gerryo777

lugha wrote: »

Good man Gerry! In replying to my post where I pointed out that many on the no side fail to grasp the point they are replying to, you fail to grasp the point that you replied to.

For the record, I have offered no opinion for or against the contention that we live in a banana republic. I did say that a minor error (at worst) in the manner in which the deadline for the HHC was specified does not a banana republic make.

I suppose this goes someway to explaining why the no side seem incapable of producing even a semi-cogent argument against this charge. :rolleyes:

For the third time today.


I was merely pointing out that Ireland is a banana republic!


I have no view on your previous posters comments.

Jeeeeezzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!

bgrizzley

gerryo777 wrote: »

For the third time today.


I was merely pointing out that Ireland is a banana republic!


I have no view on your previous posters comments.

Jeeeeezzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!

makes me feel like breaking into song. Septic Isle..............

gerryo777

bgrizzley wrote: »

makes me feel like breaking into song. Septic Isle..............

Yep, Bob was right then and the same still applies today.

gerryo777

Maybe it should go something like,

BANANA REPUBLIC.......SEPTIC..TANK..CHARGES!!!!














Sorry about that.....

Ghandee

Took a break for a while.

I see the usual suspects on the yes side are still peddling the same shiite.

Also, interesting to see the teachers unions threatening strikes if their 'entitlements' get taken away.

the lads proclaiming this to be a banana republic couldn't be more right!

baldymac

why should my 100euro benifit the local area and the ppl who dont have to pay it when the same house in the estate is a council house etc

dxhound2005

Ghandee wrote: »

Took a break for a while.

I see the usual suspects on the yes side are still peddling the same shiite.

Also, interesting to see the teachers unions threatening strikes if their 'entitlements' get taken away.

the lads proclaiming this to be a banana republic couldn't be more right!

Did you vote in the poll eventhough you are exempt? Your absence was hardly noticed, all the usual suspects on the NO side are still here.

I see a tag called "ghandees flip flop" and I have no idea what it means. Do you?

Syllabus

lugha wrote: »

Good man Gerry! In replying to my post where I pointed out that many on the no side fail to grasp the point they are replying to, you fail to grasp the point that you replied to.

For the record, I have offered no opinion for or against the contention that we live in a banana republic. I did say that a minor error (at worst) in the manner in which the deadline for the HHC was specified does not a banana republic make.

I suppose this goes someway to explaining why the no side seem incapable of producing even a semi-cogent argument against this charge. :rolleyes:

you're quite the condescending keyboard warrior aren't you.

here's my arguement.

paying now leads the way to a larger and ever increasing charge down the line. regardless of what the gov. says the tax is for it is DEFINITELY going to pay the debts incurred by the reckless bankers and the previous gov. why should i have to pay for something i had nothing to do with. why should anyone??

if they came out and said they needed a one off payment of 100(or a % of your wage) from every PAYE earner to pay the debts i would respect their honesty - i dont know if i would pay but i would respect it


your stance of 'pay the charge help the country' makes you the type of weak minded person the gov. were banking on

imo

we should be more like the french - Viva La Fr...Ireland

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Did you vote in the poll eventhough you are exempt?

Yes, I voted honesty. I didn't pay the charge. Being exempt is irrelevant, the question had no terms or conditions attached to it.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Your absence was hardly noticed

Good, nice to hear any presence I had wasn't too intimidating nor imposing, as you had insinuated earlier.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I see a tag called "ghandees flip flop" and I have no idea what it means. Do you?

Don't know either.

I'm not smarter then you are after all.

Imagine that.

I've a question for you though.

Is your satellite TV any use?

dxhound2005

Syllabus wrote: »

you're quite the condescending keyboard warrior aren't you.

here's my arguement.

paying now leads the way to a larger and ever increasing charge down the line. regardless of what the gov. says the tax is for it is DEFINITELY going to pay the debts incurred by the reckless bankers and the previous gov. why should i have to pay for something i had nothing to do with. why should anyone??

if they came out and said they needed a one off payment of 100(or a % of your wage) from every PAYE earner to pay the debts i would respect their honesty - i dont know if i would pay but i would respect it


your stance of 'pay the charge help the country' makes you the type of weak minded person the gov. were banking on

imo

we should be more like the french - Viva La Fr...Ireland

France has a property tax. And a wealth tax as well.

http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/local-property-taxes/