Seen & Found

Lumi

Bonedigger wrote: »

The Spring 2013 issue of Archaeology Ireland (Vol.27; No.1; Issue 103; 31-36), has an article which lists known clay tobacco pipe makers in Ireland; it is an article by Joe Norton and is entitled 'Pipe Dreams: A Directory of Clay Tobacco Pipe-Makers in Ireland'. I've checked with Wordwell (the publishers) and it seems they don't have a back issue of the Spring 2013 magazine. If by chance someone here should have that issue, would it be too forward of me to ask you to check this article to see if this clay tobacco pipe maker appears in that directory?!

The Spring 2013 issue is up on JSTOR Bonedigger. I had a quick skim through it but that maker doesn't seem to be mentioned. I have a copy of the paper & I'd be happy to send the pdf to you - just PM me with an email address

DragonBourne

Hi everyone
I recently walked a ploughed field next to my home i came across a fragment of pottery im situated in the boyne valley on the Co.Louth side near the village of Collon....
Anyone any thoughts on the find?
Apologies I can't post links to photos as I'm a new member?? Anyway around this?

slowburner

DragonBourne wrote: »

Hi everyone
I recently walked a ploughed field next to my home i came across a fragment of pottery im situated in the boyne valley on the Co.Louth side near the village of Collon....
Anyone any thoughts on the find?
Apologies I can't post links to photos as I'm a new member?? Anyway around this?

The best way around this is to make fifty posts. This is not as difficult as it sounds. Once you have the required number, you will be able to post links and photos.
Hope this helps and welcome to the forum.

Bonedigger

I just wanted to thank Bawn for sending me the article relating to clay pipe makers in the Spring 2013 Issue of 'Archaeology Ireland' - fair play Bawn!
That article 'Pipe Dreams: A Directory of Clay Tobacco Pipe-makers in Ireland' makes no mention of the clay tobacco pipe maker 'A.MASON' of Waterford. On the National Library of Ireland website, I found a record of a Will for an Arthur Mason, a Merchant, who died in August of 1861. I'm now just wondering if A.Mason was not in fact a clay tobacco pipe maker and just a merchant trader who may have had pipes commissioned which bore his name?
I've sent an email to both the Waterford County Museum and the Waterford Archaeological and Historical Society in the hope someone can help.
I'll keep you posted.

Edit: Lumi also offered to send the pdf of the Archaeology Ireland article - many thanks too!

Rubecula

Bonedigger great photos. I have a clay pipe that was presented to me at a smallish event in about 1999. So they are still made.

DragonBourne

Pictures of my Pottery find

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0048_zpskgj1eyt8.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0047_zpsfzu76ftz.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0046_zpsldtnihbf.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0045_zps1fqggs4n.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0044_zpsisj8ggg5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0043_zpsvzwhe7t6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0041_zpsxrilbuxl.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

DragonBourne

Hope these help and any ideas guys on what im looking at i feel its old but stand to be corrected, maybe the rim of a jug or vessel or roof tile??

Simon.d

There's a Waterford tobacco merchant Joshua Mason in 1846, who may be a son of one Arthur Mason. That Geni Link also shows that one of Joshua's sons was an Arthur too.

Bonedigger

Thanks Simon.d
I was away most of the day, so didn't get a chance to tell you guys that a lady from the Waterford County Museum came back to me this morning with info.
You weren't too far away though, but here's what they found:

http://locdat.waterfordcountylibrary.ie/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=AT3026466K321.3645&profile=dir&uri=full=3100001~!98917~!1&ri=1&aspect=basic&menu=search&source=~!lhist

http://locdat.waterfordcountylibrary.ie/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=F4302650K418T.3646&profile=dir&uri=full=3100001~!98885~!0&ri=1&aspect=basic&menu=search&source=~!lhist

I wasn't too far away either with my earlier research. Yes, he's a tobacconist and manufactures candles and soap, but is he also a clay tobacco pipe maker? I suppose we just have to assume that he not alone traded in tobacco, but also made the pipes too.
You may very well be right Simon.d, that Arthur was a son of Joshua Mason - it seems too much of a coincidence.
Incidentally, the lady from the Waterford County Museum said they did have a collection of clay tobacco pipes but none from the city itself, and that got me thinking that maybe the Museum would wish to acquire this pipe bowl? I didn't offer nor did the lady from the Museum ask, but I suppose technically (well I don't suppose, I know!) this is the property of the State, so it's not my decision to offer. I presume I would have to liaise with the NMI and it would inevitably be their decision? Just wondering what you guys think?
Many thanks again for everyone's help on this one.

Edit: Yes Simon.d, Joshua would appear to be the father of the said Arthur Mason above. Your genealogical link tells us Arthur died on the 17th August, 1861 which tallies with info. I found on a Will for an Arthur Mason - Merchant, Waterford city:

pueblo

Anyone able to throw a date on this? Whats strange is that it only has 2 'feet', located at opposite corners...

Arsemageddon

DragonBourne wrote: »

Pictures of my Pottery find

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0048_zpskgj1eyt8.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0047_zpsfzu76ftz.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0046_zpsldtnihbf.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0045_zps1fqggs4n.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0044_zpsisj8ggg5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0043_zpsvzwhe7t6.jpg.html?sort=3&o=5

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/bertmurray77/media/DSC_0041_zpsxrilbuxl.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

DragonBourne wrote: »

Hope these help and any ideas guys on what im looking at i feel its old but stand to be corrected, maybe the rim of a jug or vessel or roof tile??

It's the rim of a vessel (cup, jug, etc.).

It look's post-medieval in date. The series of roughly parallel lines indicate that this vessel was made on a potters wheel.

I don't know the exact type of pottery though

DragonBourne

Thanks for your reply Arsemageddon I noticed the lines that's why I posted on here, I have a friend who is going to email a archaeologist they know so hopefully I get some more information....

DragonBourne

Just got a response from the
National Museum of Ireland
Antiquities department

Dear Mr Murray

Many thanks for your report and images of the object that you found.

It may be a piece of coarse pottery ware dating to medieval times. However, I notice that the second image shows a rather thick and irregular profile in section. This may be due to wear and abrasion.

It would be best I think if you could send the piece to us for examination and a more definite identification. Could you also please let me know the townland name so that I can check our records for any previous similar finds either there or in neighbouring townlands ?

 

Regards and thanks,

Bonedigger

I spotted this stone at the foot of an early 20th century gravestone in a cemetery not far from where I live. The cemetery is very much off the beaten track and is believed to have been the site of a medieval church and cemetery. On Taylor's map of Kildare dated 1783, the church it seems was already in ruins. There are no visible remains of the church to be seen today.
As long as I can remember the cemetery had been overgrown with scrub and not many of the grave-markers were visible. The Local History Group did a wonderful job cleaning up the cemetery recently, but what's quite strange is, they don't mention the find on their on-line blog! To me it looks like a Bullaun Stone? It measures 31 cm. long, 26.5 cm. wide and stands approximately 23.5 cm. high. The diameter of the bullaun (hollow) is approximately 14 cm. wide and is approximately 7 cm. deep. The 'moss-less' upper surface of the stone is very smooth and rounded to the touch.










Side profiles of the stone - any ideas what type of stone it is? Shale? Limestone?








The stone itself is not unlike many of the stones that sit in the surrounding cemetery wall, so it's certainly a possibility that it has come from the wall and the hollow in the stone is natural.





It did occur to me that because it was formerly the site of a church, could it have been used as a holy water font (although the denomination of the church and cemetery is recorded as COI)? A baptismal font was found here and is now in the local Parish church.

What are the chances of this being prehistoric in date? A lot of questions I know, and probably far too many than there are answers for!!

slowburner

Definitely a bullaun. They are often found in association with early church sites. The two (or is it three?) cuts are interesting if not natural.
Looks like limestone to me. More often then not bullauns are made in granite, so this might be somewhat unusual.

Bonedigger

slowburner wrote: »

Definitely a bullaun. They are often found in association with early church sites. The two (or is it three?) cuts are interesting if not natural.
Looks like limestone to me. More often then not bullauns are made in granite, so this might be somewhat unusual.

Thanks SB!
I have my doubts whether this was an early church site (I can't find any records to suggest it was) and although I've found medieval pottery sherds (green-glazed ware) in the surrounding field, I think the church and cemetery were likely post-medieval in date. I'll contact the local History Group just to double check this and see if the bullaun stone was something they may have overlooked.

I know what you're saying about the stone type - most you see are made of granite - and if this is limestone as you think, it's unusual. That got me to thinking though! Could it be prehistoric in date? Do we know of any bullaun-like stones that were found in a prehistoric context? And if so, what were they likely to have been used as/for? I've found quite a lot of prehistoric artefacts literally feet from the cemetery wall (reported to the NMI). It's very likely the surrounding field was formerly the site of a prehistoric settlement.

There does appear to be three cut-like marks on the top of the stone too, but it's difficult to tell whether these were deliberately done or just natural.

P.S. - I forgot to ask, but if not already recorded should the find be reported to the NMI?

slowburner

Yes, definitely report it.

Is it prehistoric - who knows? The church is quite likely to have been sited on an earlier feature.
Bullauns are pretty enigmatic objects both in terms of date and purpose. Date wise, there is little doubt that some are prehistoric, though whether or not they were in use before the introduction of metal, is another story. Others are probably much later, possibly up to the early medieval period, or even later. Nobody really knows.
If you ever get a chance to visit the Seven Fonts in Glendalough you should take it. This is a remarkable site with somewhere in the region of eighteen bullauns in close proximity. This is a unique site that has all the appearance of a production line. Nobody knows if they were processing something on site, or if they were producing the bullauns themselves. Which brings us to the subject of a theory gaining increasing currency: that bullauns were used for primary ore crushing. It's a debatable theory, but there is a recognised correlation between metalworking sites and bullaun stones. Many early church sites had close relationships with iron working, so that could be seen as a direct relationship.
It should be pointed out that a bullaun stone is a tool that could have had many uses, just as the mortar and pestle has many uses today. The action stays the same and can be applied to any friable matter. However, stone mortars were in use at the same time as bullauns, but were portable. We could postulate that bullauns differed from mortars by their mass and weight, and that this meant people had to go to the bullaun. This could imply that they had a ritual significance.
It's anybody's guess really.

Bonedigger

slowburner wrote: »

Yes, definitely report it.

Is it prehistoric - who knows? The church is quite likely to have been sited on an earlier feature.
Bullauns are pretty enigmatic objects both in terms of date and purpose. Date wise, there is little doubt that some are prehistoric, though whether or not they were in use before the introduction of metal, is another story. Others are probably much later, possibly up to the early medieval period, or even later. Nobody really knows.
If you ever get a chance to visit the Seven Fonts in Glendalough you should take it. This is a remarkable site with somewhere in the region of eighteen bullauns in close proximity. This is a unique site that has all the appearance of a production line. Nobody knows if they were processing something on site, or if they were producing the bullauns themselves. Which brings us to the subject of a theory gaining increasing currency: that bullauns were used for primary ore crushing. It's a debatable theory, but there is a recognised correlation between metalworking sites and bullaun stones. Many early church sites had close relationships with iron working, so that could be seen as a direct relationship.
It should be pointed out that a bullaun stone is a tool that could have had many uses, just as the mortar and pestle has many uses today. The action stays the same and can be applied to any friable matter. However, stone mortars were in use at the same time as bullauns, but were portable. We could postulate that bullauns differed from mortars by their mass and weight, and that this meant people had to go to the bullaun. This could imply that they had a ritual significance.
It's anybody's guess really.

I haven't seen the 'Seven Fonts' bullaun stones yet, so must put it on my list of things to see.
Thanks SB!

th283

Hi I was messing around on google earth and found this interesting looking formation a few miles outside Tralee. To me it looks like a ring fort or something similar, it's only a few miles from where I live but I've never heard of anything similar being found in this area. Any ideas what it could be?

slowburner

th283 wrote: »

Hi I was messing around on google earth and found this interesting looking formation a few miles outside Tralee. To me it looks like a ring fort or something similar, it's only a few miles from where I live but I've never heard of anything similar being found in this area. Any ideas what it could be?

It is very clear and highly unlikely that it has not been recorded. Can you give directions to a more precise location so that we can verify it?
It is almost certainly a ring fort.

th283

slowburner wrote: »

It is very clear and highly unlikely that it has not been recorded. Can you give directions to a more precise location so that we can verify it?
It is almost certainly a ring fort.

Hi, I'm not sure how to get the coordinates from google earth but if you search lissanearla east it is visible and another similar looking one in lissanearla west

Bonedigger

th283 wrote: »

Hi, I'm not sure how to get the coordinates from google earth but if you search lissanearla east it is visible and another similar looking one in lissanearla west

It has been recorded and its SMR no. is KE021-126.
It's a ringfort/rath and its name 'Lissanearla' has been anglicised from the Irish 'Lios an Íarla' - 'Ringfort of the Earl'.

Bonedigger

Following on from the discussion of cursus monuments on Maudi's 'bucket list' thread, I spotted the following linear features in a field close to the village of Narraghmore in Co.Kildare:



The likelihood is that the linears have been created by an amalgam of field boundaries and a tree plantation - see the OSI's historic maps here:
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,678996,698561,6,7

On the plus side, the linear is over 200 metres long and approximately 40 metres wide (maybe a little wider than the norm), and is oriented on a SE-NW axis, which looks very similar to the cursus at Brewel Hill, which lies less than 5.5 kms. to the NE. There are no recorded prehistoric monuments in close proximity to this linear feature, but there are two curious looking circular features visible along the linear to the NW.
If I'm being honest, I don't think it's a cursus, but who knows?!

Edit: In the Bing satellite image below, you can just about make out a short, shallow linear cropmark (running along the same axis) where the SE end of this linear feature appears on the Google Earth image above: http://binged.it/1JPC7Ur

slowburner

Bonedigger wrote: »

Following on from the discussion of cursus monuments on Maudi's 'bucket list' thread, I spotted the following linear features in a field close to the village of Narraghmore in Co.Kildare:



The likelihood is that the linears have been created by an amalgam of field boundaries and a tree plantation - see the OSI's historic maps here:
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,678996,698561,6,7

On the plus side, the linear is over 200 metres long and approximately 40 metres wide (maybe a little wider than the norm), and is oriented on a SE-NW axis, which looks very similar to the cursus at Brewel Hill, which lies less than 5.5 kms. to the NE. There are no recorded prehistoric monuments in close proximity to this linear feature, but there are two curious looking circular features visible along the linear to the NW.
If I'm being honest, I don't think it's a cursus, but who knows?!

Edit: In the Bing satellite image below, you can just about make out a short, shallow linear cropmark (running along the same axis) where the SE end of this linear feature appears on the Google Earth image above: http://binged.it/1JPC7Ur

I does look remarkably similar to the Brewell Hill cursus, but I think it is related to field boundaries. It is possible though, that the field boundaries utilised existing banks. The only way to tell would be excavation.
There are two recorded monuments in the next field to the west (KD032-042 and KD032-042001). One is very clear on the Bing image and as you say, there may be more in the vicinity.

By the way, the Keadeen cursus may have been visible from Brewell Hill. There is a clear view of the mountain, at the very least.
The two cursús might not be related, but wouldn't it be intriguing if other lowland cursús were discovered and if they had a similar relationship with the upland earthworks?
The most recently discovered cursus (DU025-087) is in the Dublin mountains and its alignment with the cairn/passage tomb on Two Rock mountain, is undeniable (see below, the cairn is visible on the summit above the central telegraph pole).
I believe that this particular one is not in the same class as the upland cursús. It is situated on a plateau or terrace, and the steep pitch is absent.

Bonedigger

slowburner wrote: »

It is possible though, that the field boundaries utilised existing banks. The only way to tell would be excavation.

That's a thought that did cross my mind.
The only other thing I would say is that this linear feature wouldn't appear to be situated on a very obvious slope or hill. Although the ground to the east is lower lying, the area to the west is significantly higher in altitude - I'm not sure though that that would matter?

Was the recently discovered cursus (DU025-087) in the Dublin mountains found by yourself?

slowburner

Bonedigger wrote: »

That's a thought that did cross my mind.
The only other thing I would say is that this linear feature wouldn't appear to be situated on a very obvious slope or hill. Although the ground to the east is lower lying, the area to the west is significantly higher in altitude - I'm not sure though that that would matter?

Was the recently discovered cursus (DU025-087) in the Dublin mountains found by yourself?

I think that there are two distinct classes of cursus type, linear monuments that may share broadly similar dimensions. Upland and lowland.
I also believe that the upland type or class is utilitarian in one way or another. The lowland class, I think, might justify the use of the 'r' word, and might be later. I have no grounds for saying this, it's just an opinion.
This is a long winded way of saying no, I don't think pitch or slope matters if we are looking at ceremonial structures. Quite the opposite in fact.

It was a chance find, sort of. There had to be one on that hill. It fitted all the criteria identified as common to the situation of the other upland cursús, so the hill was searched fairly thoroughly from the desk first, and then verified in person. There has to be many more in both class, but forestry makes initial identification difficult in many instances. Lidar might overcome this obstacle, but it's expensive and patchy at the moment.

Bonedigger

slowburner wrote: »

I think that there are two distinct classes of cursus type....................The lowland class, I think, might justify the use of the 'r' word, and might be later. I have no grounds for saying this, it's just an opinion.

Are you prepared to stick your neck out and say how much later the lowland class of cursus were likely to have been in use? Early to Middle Bronze age perhaps?
You've rightly cautioned me in the past that I must not assume the linear on Long hill, the Curragh, was a cursus, but what's your gut feeling? The absence of a terminus/termini aside, does it meet all other criteria in relation to the lowland class of cursus? Through my own investigations of the prehistoric monuments on the Curragh, I've been working under the premise that this linear was Neolithic in date and that it pre-dated the barrows and ring-ditches that lie in close proximity.

slowburner

I am probably guilty of over simplifying things.
Some of the lowland cursus may be later, possibly BA. This is not based on anything reliable. There is however, a school of thought which holds that the less straight or formal an earthwork, the greater the likelihood of it being early.
This is the Theory of Wiggliness. This is not a theory you will find in textbooks, but it is a useful tool in the landscape archaeologist's kit. Neolithic field systems are a good example of wiggliness. They meander for no obvious reason, almost as if the builders were having the craic every now and again. They were not bothered if the walls weren't straight. The upland cursus are all fairly wiggly, and we might be able to apply the theory here. On the other hand, the wiggliness might have been a consequence of terrain, midges, or inclement weather!

As to the Curragh linear...I would still exercise caution simply because of the title 'Encampment' on the first ed. mapping. However, a colleague for whom I have great respect, is convinced that it is (was) a cursus. If I was to stick my neck out, I would guess later BA, at the very earliest. It could be even later -based on the W Theory. I think the fact that it was titled on the first ed.indicates some sort of a local lore and that this local lore might hint at some legacy of knowledge about its purpose. Then again, it might not. The Local lore might be pure mythology. Who knows? It would be a fascinating project.

pueblo

pueblo wrote: »

Anyone able to throw a date on this? Whats strange is that it only has 2 'feet', located at opposite corners...

Sorry to bump my own post but can anyone tell me anything about the 'lozenge' motif seen here, or the use of the lozenge/diamond shape in Ireland at any period?

Also I am guessing it is some type of alloy (copper/tin?) however the 3 barrel style hinges are of a different material, possibly bronze?



And lastly can anyone point me to good information on reliquaries in Ireland? I have been through much of what I can find of relevance from Google.

Thanks

Bonedigger

pueblo wrote: »

Sorry to bump my own post but can anyone tell me anything about the 'lozenge' motif seen here, or the use of the lozenge/diamond shape in Ireland at any period?

Also I am guessing it is some type of alloy (copper/tin?) however the 3 barrel style hinges are of a different material, possibly bronze?



And lastly can anyone point me to good information on reliquaries in Ireland? I have been through much of what I can find of relevance from Google.

Thanks

Hi Pueblo,
I've been waiting patiently, just like yourself I'm sure, for someone to throw light on this box too. Where was it found?
Could it be that it's a cigarette box perhaps, and possibly Edwardian in date?
It obviously had a hinged lid and the pedestals on the base could suggest it was intended to sit on a desktop and not intended to be carried about in one's pocket. I'm not sure that the lozenge shapes on the box would have any great deal of significance, unless you have a theory yourself of course?
That's all I've got I'm afraid!