Yes Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool are done. MOD POST #425 *ALL READ*

Morzadec

Xavi6 wrote: »

Hopefully tonight's result goes some way to securing Kenneth's long term future at the club.

Why do you always call him Kenneth?? Everyone refers to him as Kenny, 'Kenneth' sounds weird. Would be like call Fergie 'Alexander'.

Whenever I read it, it always remind of that scene from Peep Show, very disconcerting!

MonkeyTennis

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well how about Dalglish answer in a proper way and actually answer the questions properly. Like if the reporter says Andy Carroll played well, go into detail on why you think he played well and put that view across.

Dalglish though seems desperate to say as little as possible and get away as quick as possible. It is pretty pathetic to be honest. But then again, he probably knows he won't be at Liverpool next season and has decided to stop caring.

Either way, he needs to step it up in his interviews. I think a lot of people (including Liverpool fans) find them pretty pathetic.

Well turn it off?

Ferguson and Wenger have been consistently cringeworthy to me for years

LuckyLloyd

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well how about Dalglish answer in a proper way and actually answer the questions properly. Like if the reporter says Andy Carroll played well, go into detail on why you think he played well and put that view across.

Going back to my original question, I fail to see how that might be illuminating or important. Dude puts in a Man of the Match performance, it should be pretty plain to see why. A manager explaining that is useless fluff - softball stuff.

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think a lot of people (including Liverpool fans) find them pretty pathetic.

So?

KeithAFC

it should be pretty plain to see why.

Some people might not notice it though. Perhaps the manager might want to pin point another player in the team who he thought was fantastic. Just basic answers like that are what some people do want to see.

LuckyLloyd

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people might not notice it though. Perhaps the manager might want to pin point another player in the team who he thought was fantastic. Just basic answers like that are what some people do want to see.

None of that is "important" though, is it?

KeithAFC

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

None of that is "important" though, is it?

It is to some people. Some people do actually want to hear the views of the manager and for them to conduct themselves with dignity.

amacachi

And if they ask about tactics after a loss they "digging".

Sappy404

He's been under immense pressure recently and has had some stinkers of questions at post-match interviews and press conferences. I think most managers would react like that when under similar circumstances.

I'd prefer to see him keep his cool and just answer the questions as quickly and simply as he can if he doesn't like them, but if he tries to end the thing instead then fair enough. It doesn't make for comfortable viewing, but it's up to him. It's not as bad as calling a reporter a c**t like Kinnear, a blanket refusal to speak to a news agency for years like Ferguson, or threatening to quit if the FA fine him like Holloway, for example.

Renn

Oh it's worse.

LuckyLloyd

KeithAFC wrote: »

It is to some people. Some people do actually want to hear the views of the manager and for them to conduct themselves with dignity.

Maybe, but it doesn't affect the team's ability to win football matches.

Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger have been obtuse or short with the media at various points in their careers and it hasn't impinged upon their ability to bring home the cheddar at season's end.

Dalglish has made mistakes this season in terms of signings, tactics and chosen personnel and they have contributed to the unacceptable league position. However his handling of the media is irrelevant to what is being produced on the pitch, irrespective of how much opposition fans or the media would like it to be.

KeithAFC

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Maybe, but it doesn't affect the team's ability to win football matches.

Ferguson, Mourinho and Wenger have been obtuse or short with the media at various points in their careers and it hasn't impinged upon their ability to bring home the cheddar at season's end.

Dalglish has made mistakes this season in terms of signings, tactics and chosen personnel and they have contributed to the unacceptable league position. However his handling of the media is irrelevant to what is being produced on the pitch, irrespective of how much opposition fans or the media would like it to be.

It probably does actually. He looks miserable, fed up, no spring in his step etc. If that is his body language, it will only be seen by the players and it isn't good.

LuckyLloyd

KeithAFC wrote: »

It probably does actually. He looks miserable, fed up, no spring in his step etc. If that is his body language, it will only be seen by the players and it isn't good.

Did you see him pitchside last night? I wouldn't have used any of those adjectives to describe his demeanour.

mike65

Morzadec wrote: »

Why do you always call him Kenneth?? Everyone refers to him as Kenny, 'Kenneth' sounds weird. Would be like call Fergie 'Alexander'.

Whenever I read it, it always remind of that scene from Peep Show, very disconcerting!

I believe its a mocking condescension, something Xavi6 is prone to using, with varying degrees of success*














* read that like David Mitchell would say it for best effect.

spiralism

ush wrote: »

Ferguson might have a go once a year? How many years did he refuse to speak to the BBC. That whole episode showed spitful and petty he is. What Dalglish is doing in his interviews doesn't come near the behavior of Ferguson.

it's one thing refusing to speak to the bbc for what he perceived as a grevious insult against his family, which he's notably protective of (for example, he rarely brings them up, if ever) and refusing to talk to the bbc over it but another thing entirely to turn innocent questions into slights and making out as if there's an agenda against the club when it's been his barbed divisive remarks on a number of issues (treatment by refs, suarezgate etc) and attitude to the media that has made them put himself and the club down in the first place. i mean, that reporter said **** all last night that could be construed as offensive, let's be fair and Dalglish nearly lynched him.

It's not new behaviour though, he's always been like this with the media, at Celtic in 2001, for example, he organised a press conference in Bairds pub near Parkhead to make a mockery of the media and let the diehards have a right go at them. He needs to have a bit more respect to them, even if they are hacks and talk ****e, they're only trying to do a job. Wenger, Fergie and most managers for that matter will snap every now and then but when treated with respect they'll be civil and give it back. Dalglish goes in, talks down his nose to them and alights like a stack of fireworks the minute anything is said that could even be slightly construed as controversial.

Siege mentality ****e again, for a sixty one year old man he could do with growing up, this is the sort of bollox that 15 year olds come out with, there's not a conspiracy to undermine a liverpool side he spent into the hundreds of millions on and alighted any controversy surrounding it with his own actions and words. They're 8th for reasons a lot closer to home than an imagined agenda against the club and he knows it - classic deflectionary tactics. Being a bully to the likes of the media and the referees isn't going to change the fact it's his own fault that they can scarcely buy a win this year.

SM01

spiralism wrote: »

it's one thing refusing to speak to the bbc for what he perceived as a grevious insult against his family, which he's notably protective of (for example, he rarely brings them up, if ever) and refusing to talk to the bbc over it but another thing entirely to turn innocent questions into slights and making out as if there's an agenda against the club when it's been his barbed divisive remarks on a number of issues (treatment by refs, suarezgate etc) and attitude to the media that has made them put the club down in the first place. i mean, that reporter said **** all last night that could be construed as offensive, let's be fair and Dalglish nearly lynched him.

Way to go putting a cock-arsed spin on things to suit your argument! There's twisting the truth slightly and then talking a load of bollocks. This post is the latter.

Gringo180

Just seen that clip there, thats quite possibly the worst interview I've seen in Prem League history. What is wrong with this man why is he so defensive?

missingtime

Just watched the interview and I really don't see what everyone was getting in a fuss over. Maybe his comment "I don't see why I have to explain that" in reference to who he thought was gonna score the 5th goal, but everything else seemed fine.

Storm meet tea-cup.

citytillidie

missingtime wrote: »

Just watched the interview and I really don't see what everyone was getting in a fuss over. Maybe his comment "I don't see why I have to explain that" in reference to who he thought was gonna score the 5th goal, but everything else seemed fine.

Storm meet tea-cup.

As i said in the main Liverpool thread, Liverpool won last night so the haters are now trying to find something else to hit Dalglish with.

There was nothing wrong with that interview in my eyes.

He said at the start that he was not going to talk about the ref yet the interviewer still went on to ask questions about the ref

monkey9

If the Liverpool obsessed fans of other clubs want so much to hear what Kenny has to say about the officals, send him a tweet.

Adolf Hipster

monkey9 wrote: »

If the Liverpool obsessed fans of other clubs want so much to hear what Kenny has to say about the officals, send him a tweet.

Deluded is often used but by god it suits.

monkey9

Adolf Hipster wrote: »

Deluded is often used but by god it suits.

Indeed. Go on, tweet Kenny.

Will I Amnt

monkey9 wrote: »

If the Liverpool obsessed fans of other clubs want so much to hear what Kenny has to say about the officals, send him a tweet.

Ah not again

lempsipmax

Are Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool done?

John W Henry will decide. Here is for me the only quote from him that matters:

"Our main goal is to qualify for the Champions League. If we don't, it would be a major disappointment."

We can take from this that the FA Cup, Carling Cup and Europa League qualification were not priorities. Most probably things that would be 'nice to have'. Liverpool have not come even close to achieving this stated goal and this season from Henry's viewpoint must be a major disappointment.

The notion that winning the Carling Cup would instill a winning mentality has been rubbished by the terrible run of form which followed. It was the worst run of form in decades. If we are to believe Dalglish the extra games that came with the cup runs have impacted our league form.

The handling of the Suarez racism row was clearly frowned upon by the owners as evidenced by their intervention and the apology they had to force Dalglish to issue. "I did not conduct myself in a way befitting of a Liverpool manager during that interview and I'd like to apologise for that."

The new signings are clearly not providing anything like a satisfactory return on investment, even allowing for the idea that they would have to 'bed in'.

Rightly or wrongly Dalglish is not handling the his media duties well. Whatever his regard for the interviewers or the media outlets involved he should be able to rise above any annoyances they cause him and represent the club well. This should not be an issue.

To me at least there is no clear strategy for the team. I wonder if he knows his best team, formation or tactics. "We've got a problem winning games in the league. Maybe there is a lot we have to educate ourselves about and maybe not have to play the lovely football we try and play. Maybe we need to change our philosophies a wee bit." I would be worried if I heard my manager talking about changing philosophy after over a year in the job. Following the collapse at QPR Dalglish said: "For us, we don’t really have an explanation".

Dalglish has failed to show he can turn a game around after conceding first. In the 13 league games where Liverpool conceded first we lost 9, drew 3 and only overturned a losing position once.

In terms of the impact of injuries to key players we should have anticipated this possibility and the decision to release Cole, Meireles and Aquilani can be questioned.

I am trying to look at things as objectively as possibly and it is hard to dispute that the club is in crisis. Henry stated prior to appointing Dalglish that they had planned to get a younger manager, but were convinced to change this policy based on the performances of the team while Dalglish was care-taker manager. That form and those performance and results have evaporated. Given that Henry knows that this is a long term project I simply don't believe that he will persist with a manager who on all the evidence listed above does not seem capable of delivering improvement in the immediate, short or medium term. He will have to go.

There is sometimes a fine line between success and failure and excuses are fine if you are robbed by a bad refereeing decision and pipped for fourth place as a result. But the gulf between the stated aim and our currently position is too great for excuses to be credible. Referees, the woodwork, fixtures lists, tiredness, injuries, player behavior etc are part of the game. He is paid to deal with them.

Liverpool has suffered enough set-backs in recent years, and I think that persisting with Dalglish would only deepen the hole we are in and at best in offer a small improvement from a low base. I read almost all of the Liverpool posts on here and have not heard a single credible argument that has made me doubt that Dalglish should and will be removed.

LuckyLloyd

lempsipmax wrote: »

I am trying to look at things as objectively as possibly and it is hard to dispute that the club is in crisis.

Jaysus, if I was a Portsmouth or Rangers fan I'd be outraged at that comment.

Even as a Liverpool fan I know what a crisis is! October 2010 when we were fighting for our life in court was a crisis. Being 17th in the table with an awful lot more points required before being safe from relegation was a crisis.

Looking at a midtable finish in the league, with a cup in the bag and a semi - final to come while our finances are secure is a long way from a "crisis" imo.

Xavi6

And just like that, the Director of Football job opens up.

Al Capwned

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Looking at a midtable finish in the league, with a cup in the bag and a semi - final to come while our finances are secure is a long way from a "crisis" imo.

Seriously? This is Liverpool, 18 leagues, 5 european cups that are finishing mid-table - What would you call it?

It may be regarded as a successful season for the likes of Everton, Stoke, Fulham etc, even Newcastle, but notwithstanding the success in the League Cup, there is no way on earth, in my opinion, that this season has been anything but disastrous for Liverpool.

Nalz

alproctor wrote: »

in my opinion, that this season has been disastrous for Liverpool.

Disastrous is probably a more fitting word than crisis tbh, for a club of Liverpools stature.

It is the word thats being debated here ye? Of course Porstmouth and Rangers are in a crisis and Liverpools situation is better off than them.

lempsipmax

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Jaysus, if I was a Portsmouth or Rangers fan I'd be outraged at that comment.

Even as a Liverpool fan I know what a crisis is! October 2010 when we were fighting for our life in court was a crisis. Being 17th in the table with an awful lot more points required before being safe from relegation was a crisis.

Looking at a midtable finish in the league, with a cup in the bag and a semi - final to come while our finances are secure is a long way from a "crisis" imo.

OK you picked up on the most debatable point I made, fair enough. Many people think it's a crisis many don't. Maybe it's easier to dispute whether or not its a crisis than I made out.

But I have tried to look at things as they might appear to John Henry and this season must be a 'major disappointment' to him. The basis on which Dalglish was appointed now seems like it was not a reliable guide to the teams future performance. I bet he will not be Liverpool manager next season.

LuckyLloyd

This is a club that came within a few days of ceasing to ****ing exist in October 2010. The idea that our current situation is a "crisis" or "disastrous" is ****ing ridiculous. Gain a sense of perspective.

This season has been extremely disappointing in terms of our league form and how some of our high priced signings have worked out. But our cup participation has been a bright spot, and it is all underpinned by stable and secure ownership and finances.

lempsipmax

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is a club that came within a few days of ceasing to ****ing exist in October 2010. The idea that our current situation is a "crisis" or "disastrous" is ****ing ridiculous. Gain a sense of perspective.

If the club had not come so perilously close to ceasing to ****ing exist in October 2010, what event/non-event would you suggest I use to gain a sense of perspective for the clubs current situation?

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This is a club that came within a few days of ceasing to ****ing exist in October 2010. The idea that our current situation is a "crisis" or "disastrous" is ****ing ridiculous. Gain a sense of perspective.

That's just looking on the bright side man.
If LFC didn't come close to folding would it be a crisis or a disaster??
You can't just hang onto that as something to fall back on and compare to when things are not going well.
It's not a case of "ah sure it could be worse........."

Al Capwned

Trilla wrote: »

Disastrous is probably a more fitting word than crisis tbh, for a club of Liverpools stature.

It is the word thats being debated here ye? Of course Porstmouth and Rangers are in a crisis and Liverpools situation is better off than them.

Yeah I agree that Portsmouth and Rangers are paddle-less.

I suppose my point in above post, is that some (not all) Liverpool supporters are refusing to admit that they are in serious trouble. It's a matter of personal opinion as to whether you call that a crisis, a disaster, or anything else.

What is plainly obvious, to me in any case, is that the successes in the cup competitions are swaying some supporters toward the idea that Liverpool are making progress under Dalglish, when I think that they've gone backwards.

A few years ago, Liverpool lost 2 league games all season, but drew 10 or 11 and finished second to us. That's as close as they've come to winning a league since 1990, and they are further away now than ever they've been...

Liverpool are 8th in the table - 7th is the highest they can finish and there is a genuine chance that they could finish as low as 10th or so if one or two of Fulham, Norwich, Sunderland or Stoke finish strongly.

To a club with the history and stature of Liverpool, that is a crisis in my opinion.

StephenHendry

alproctor wrote: »

Yeah I agree that Portsmouth and Rangers are paddle-less.

I suppose my point in above post, is that some (not all) Liverpool supporters are refusing to admit that they are in serious trouble. It's a matter of personal opinion as to whether you call that a crisis, a disaster, or anything else.

What is plainly obvious, to me in any case, is that the successes in the cup competitions are swaying some supporters toward the idea that Liverpool are making progress under Dalglish, when I think that they've gone backwards.

A few years ago, Liverpool lost 2 league games all season, but drew 10 or 11 and finished second to us. That's as close as they've come to winning a league since 1990, and they are further away now than ever they've been...

Liverpool are 8th in the table - 7th is the highest they can finish and there is a genuine chance that they could finish as low as 10th or so if one or two of Fulham, Norwich, Sunderland or Stoke finish strongly.

To a club with the history and stature of Liverpool, that is a crisis in my opinion.

i agree, im not a pool fan either but i'd say this season is as bad as last because people genuinely expected them to challenge for 4th in the league which hasnt happened. i still think they will beat everton on saturday and therefore they are more than capable of beating spurs or chelsea to win the FA Cup. the bottom line for liverpool is get back in the CL asap which has to happen soon than later for them. id say kenny will have another season but if they don't get at least 4th then id say he will be gone.

LuckyLloyd

lempsipmax wrote: »

If the club had not come so perilously close to ceasing to ****ing exist in October 2010, what event/non-event would you suggest I use to gain a sense of perspective for the clubs current situation?

Remember the Souness era?

1992: 6th
1993: 6th
1994: 8th

Squad was in transition then too. We had some good players (who weren't as good as we thought) and spent money on guys that turned out to be duds. But it was sorted, a new team was constructed and we got better for a couple of years. Then we had to rebuild again under Houllier and got back to the Champions League and winning trophys again. Then that stagnated and Benitez came in and made us one of the best in Europe for a while, etc.

People keep swatting aside the cup runs but they demonstrate that there is quality and ability in the club at the moment, it just needs a lot of tuning to bring back consistency. There is plenty of work to do, but the task is achievable.

cambo2008 wrote:

That's just looking on the bright side man.
If LFC didn't come close to folding would it be a crisis or a disaster??
You can't just hang onto that as something to fall back on and compare to when things are not going well.
It's not a case of "ah sure it could be worse........."

October 2010 happened. Leeds United happened. Nottingham Forest are in absolute rag order at the moment, etc. Being a football fan is a lifetime pursuit. We're down at the moment, but words like crisis would imply us as being close to "out". That is very, very far from true imo.

StephenHendry

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Remember the Souness era?

1992: 6th
1993: 6th
1994: 8th

Squad was in transition then too. We had some good players (who weren't as good as we thought) and spent money on guys that turned out to be duds. But it was sorted, a new team was constructed and we got better for a couple of years. Then we had to rebuild again under Houllier and got back to the Champions League and winning trophys again. Then that stagnated and Benitez came in and made us one of the best in Europe for a while, etc.

People keep swatting aside the cup runs but they demonstrate that there is quality and ability in the club at the moment, it just needs a lot of tuning to bring back consistency. There is plenty of work to do, but the task is achievable.



October 2010 happened. Leeds United happened. Nottingham Forest are in absolute rag order at the moment, etc. Being a football fan is a lifetime pursuit. We're down at the moment, but words like crisis would imply us as being close to "out". That is very, very far from true imo.

as a leeds fan, we've been through the mill a few times with the number of times we've been in administration not to mention the disaster this season has been for us.

lempsipmax

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Remember the Souness era?

1992: 6th
1993: 6th
1994: 8th

Squad was in transition then too. We had some good players (who weren't as good as we thought) and spent money on guys that turned out to be duds. But it was sorted, a new team was constructed and we got better for a couple of years.

Are you using the improvement following the disappointment of the Souness reign as evidence that an improvement will come under Dalglish? Souness was sacked.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

People keep swatting aside the cup runs.

I don't dismiss them. I just think that Henry will see them as 'nice to haves', given the league form and position.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

We're down at the moment, but words like crisis would imply us as being close to "out". That is very, very far from true imo.

You are objecting to what you see as the implications of the word 'crisis'. I agree Liverpool are no where near "out" as you put it. I never implied that they were.

LuckyLloyd

lempsipmax wrote: »

Are you using the improvement following the disappointment of the Souness reign as evidence that an improvement will come under Dalglish? Souness was sacked.

No, I'm just not fixated on whether or not Dalglish should stay. The key this summer is the players we bring in and let go, and how much money is there to work with. The removal of Commoli indicates to me that FSG are already in planning mode as far as that is concerned.

If we rebuild the squad successfully, then we will get to where we want to go.

lempsipmax wrote: »

You are objecting to what you see as the implications of the word 'crisis'. I agree Liverpool are no where near "out" as you put it. I never implied that they were.

Listen, I am deeply disappointed with our league form this year. I just think the problems are fixable. It's no secret why we haven't won enough games. Our chance conversion rate is far lower than it should be; and we concede a much higher percentage of goals from opposition attacks than is ideal.

(Well duh Lloyd I hear you say).

We are able to gain a platform of possession consistently; create chances; and limit opponent opportunities. The problem is cutting edge. To that end, weak links at either end of the pitch like Carragher, Downing and Carroll have killed us stone dead.

I just think that when you can specify your issues, and when they are fixable - it is far from a "crisis", particularly when the club is on a sound enough footing to go out and attempt to reshape the squad.

lempsipmax

LuckyLloyd wrote:

No, I'm just not fixated on whether or not Dalglish should stay. The key this summer is the players we bring in and let go, and how much money is there to work with.

I am a bit fixated on this really! I agree money being spent on the right players and some of the 'wrong ones' being released is vital, but we also need a better manager in my view.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

It's no secret why we haven't won enough games. Our chance conversion rate is far lower than it should be; and we concede a much higher percentage of goals from opposition attacks than is ideal.

I agree the chance conversion has been the real stand-out stat of the season, but we are where we are as they say.

Redzer7

A lot of talk linking Pat Dolan as the next Liverpool manager.

LuckyLloyd

Redzer7 wrote: »

A lot of talk linking Pat Dolan as the next Liverpool manager.

Talk amongst who?

PhlegmyMoses

Redzer7 wrote: »

A lot of talk linking Pat Dolan as the next Liverpool manager.

That would be AMAZING.

Redzer7

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Talk amongst who?

"Good sources around the club".

LuckyLloyd

Redzer7 wrote: »

"Good sources around the club".

And where did you read (or hear) the above quote?

aidan24326

alproctor wrote: »

To a club with the history and stature of Liverpool, that is a crisis in my opinion.

But this history and stature is becoming a fading memory now and maybe the Liverpool fans need to take stock and realise that all those glory days were a long time ago. There's no doubt that the team is going backwards under Dalglish. He seems a bit clueless imo. But whoever suggested Pat Dolan is being considered is surely joking?

LuckyLloyd

aidan24326 wrote: »

But this history and stature is becoming a fading memory now and maybe the Liverpool fans need to take stock and realise that all those glory days were a long time ago. There's no doubt that the team is going backwards under Dalglish. He seems a bit clueless imo. But whoever suggested Pat Dolan is being considered is surely joking?

Champions League finalists five years ago; 2nd in the league three years ago.

Fading memories?

Al Capwned

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Champions League finalists five years ago; 2nd in the league three years ago.

In fairness, today's team (and Manager, imo) aren't fit to clean the boots of the team of 3 years ago....

And i think that, in itself answers the question in the OP.

Are Liverpool done? No, but it's a long long way back.
Is Dalglish done, Yes.

LuckyLloyd

alproctor wrote: »

In fairness, today's team (and Manager, imo) aren't fit to clean the boots of the team of 3 years ago....

And i think that, in itself answers the question in the OP.

Are Liverpool done? No, but it's a long long way back.
Is Dalglish done, Yes.

It's a team and manager that may yet win two competitions though!

Al Capwned

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's a team and manager that may yet win two competitions though!

But....... To avoid repeating myself

LuckyLloyd

alproctor wrote: »

But....... To avoid repeating myself

Yeah, I don't agree.

For me it's a wash - we're going to finish a couple of places down the table, but that is explained by the added strain of two lengthy (and high emotion) cup runs on a squad that isn't capable of competing week in, week out. We got knocked out at the first hurdle in both domestic comps last year, and never got going in Europe after Christmas.

Now, that it's a wash is completely unacceptable given the investment in the squad over the summer. But terms like 'Liverpool are going backwards'; 'Liverpool are in crisis' are hyperbolic. We're in the same place. The next tier down from the CL contenders, capable of winning or losing any match on or off our day.

Sometimes you just stagnate, but football fans and the football media have a very difficult time accepting that.

Al Capwned

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree so -

I think it's fair to say Liverpool are going backwards, considering they've gone from 2nd in the league to mid table mediocrity in 3 years, and competing in Champions League finals to accepting League Cup wins as a successful season in 5 years.