Yes Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool are done. MOD POST #425 *ALL READ*

G.K.

Oranage2 wrote: »

And do you actually believe that Newcastle is a modern moneyball?

No, that's not what I said.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

There are also tactical systems that players will do well in that the signing team are unwilling to use. For instance, Leon Britton has been excellent is Swansea's patient, passing game where the whole system suits his playing style.

If, say, Manchester United recognise that they need a midfielder to replace Scholes, look at Scholes' passing stats and then look at Britton's it would be reasonable to surmise that he would suit United to a tee. But then, United's passing game is different. They need inch perfect passes to the wingers, forward passes to the strikers. They are constantly putting the other team under pressure and need probing passes that bring teammates into play in dangerous areas. Does Leon Britton suit this?

Basically, you can look at all the stats you want in football but the most effective analysis is qualitative. It will henceforth be known as Useyoureyesball.

That's why stats have to be used in tandem with other points in football, such as watching players several times with several scouts, to get an idea of how or if they would fit into a system. But the stats can help you sift the inefficient fom the efficient ones in the first place.

KeithAFC

Oranage2 wrote: »

That's why I said basically...


And do you actually believe that Newcastle is a modern moneyball?

I may be a bit older than you because I've seen 100s of strikers have wonder seasons esp ones from African.

I've also seen many teams have wonder seasons just to be crap the next one.


Moneyball doesnt work in football

FACT

I agree. Football is too deep for that to work.

Dr Galen

Oranage2 wrote: »

Moneyball doesnt work in football

FACT

Thats exactly what they said in baseball

They were wrong

FACT

PhlegmyMoses

The thing is, though, the most successful team of the PL era doesn't seem to implement this strategy at all. Fergie buys youth. Players who haven't built up a base of stats worth analysing. Smalling from Fulham, Jones from Blackburn, Hernandez from Guadlajara, Valencia from Wigan, Ronaldo and Nani from Lisbon, Vidic from Belgrade and De Gea from Atletico. These players were all bought through scouting and watching the players and knowing that they suited United's style and can be developed further due to their age. Barca are similar, without actually buying anyone.

Moneyball may suit short to medium term needs and it may suit teams who want to get to the stage where they can have long term projects but I'm not sure that it's suited to the higher echelons of football. Full disclosure, though, I haven't read the book. My understanding of the concept comes from articles and blogs so I may need to read the book to get a clearer picture.

LuckyLloyd

KeithAFC wrote: »

I looked it up on amazon and it seems to come from baseball?

Oh so you didn't read it. You should probably shut the **** about it then until you've read it (or at least grasped the basic concepts) tbh.

Will I Amnt

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Have Newcastle ever said that they were using a moneyball strategy? They seem to just scout well and take a punt on players that others are wary of due to injuries and attitude such as Ben Arfa and Ba.

Cisse shows us another variable not as prominent in the US - the fact that the majority of the world's best baseball players play in the league you are purchasing them to play in. A lot of people had heard of Cisse and had an idea that he was doing well for Hoffenheim.

But then, it's hard to know whether this will translate over to the PL. Dzeko was immense for Wolfsburg but has hardly lit up the league. Mame Biram Diouf is now banging them in for Hannover but never really looked that kind of player for United. Cisse could have gone either way.

There are also tactical systems that players will do well in that the signing team are unwilling to use. For instance, Leon Britton has been excellent is Swansea's patient, passing game where the whole system suits his playing style.

If, say, Manchester United recognise that they need a midfielder to replace Scholes, look at Scholes' passing stats and then look at Britton's it would be reasonable to surmise that he would suit United to a tee. But then, United's passing game is different. They need inch perfect passes to the wingers, forward passes to the strikers. They are constantly putting the other team under pressure and need probing passes that bring teammates into play in dangerous areas. Does Leon Britton suit this?

Basically, you can look at all the stats you want in football but the most effective analysis is qualitative. It will henceforth be known as Useyoureyesball.

Excellent post,moneyball does not have nearly the same relevance in football as other sports.
And Newcastle,because they signed a player with a good goals to game ratio are not using it in their transfer dealings.
That's just common sense.
They signed Obertan ffs.

LuckyLloyd

donalg1 wrote: »

I don't see how a united fan could be obsessed with Liverpool, probably just enjoy watching them getting worse every year and watching manager after manager failing at the club.

If anything it's the lfc fans with the obsession can't really blame them seeing as they are watching united win trophy after trophy year after year. No harm in being obsessed with that they might even learn something about being successful (might bring the operative word if course)

Belly flop and loads of splash back imo.

Oranage2

Dr Galen wrote: »

Thats exactly what they said in baseball

They were wrong

FACT

And Football is

different to Baseball

FACT

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh so you didn't read it. You should probably shut the **** about it then until you've read it (or at least grasped the basic concepts) tbh.

Sorry if I'm getting you mixed up with someone else but I keep picturing you as Tex from Alan Partridge......Americanise everything.

LuckyLloyd

Your argument that sorting football players by OBP wouldn't yield spectacular results in the transfer market are undoubtedly correct. As such, the concepts of moneyball could never become workable in a football context. :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

cambo2008 wrote: »

Sorry if I'm getting you mixed up with someone else but I keep picturing you as Tex from Alan Partridge......Americanise everything.

You can picture me however you want to picture me honey.

KeithAFC

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh so you didn't read it. You should probably shut the **** about it then until you've read it (or at least grasped the basic concepts) tbh.

No I won't shut the **** up thank you very much. Moneyball is just a lot of nonsense which is based on stats. That is all I need to know.

Will I Amnt

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You can picture me however you want to picture me honey.

G.K.

For people talking about stats like crossing or 'goal per game ratio', It's more complex than that. Look at the calculation for OBP, for example.

A stat I'd like to have but isn't available afaik, if I were implementing a moneyball (Or sabremetrics, the actual term), would be pressured (i.e. where a player is being pressed/closed down/tightly marked) passing completion rate - that's the kind of stat that would be useful.

KeithAFC

G.K. wrote: »

For people talking about stats like crossing or 'goal per game ratio', It's more complex than that. Look at the calculation for OBP, for example.

A stat I'd like to have but isn't available afaik, if I were implementing a moneyball (Or sabremetrics, the actual term), would be pressured (i.e. where a player is being pressed/closed down/tightly marked) passing completion rate - that's the kind of stat that would be useful.

Or how they control the ball, corners, defending set pieces, football intelligence, creating space on the pitch, pace, movement, confidence and so on.

LuckyLloyd

KeithAFC wrote: »

No I won't shut the **** up thank you very much. Moneyball is just a lot of nonsense which is based on stats. That is all I need to know.

:):rolleyes::o:mad::(:eek::cool::P:confused::pac:

LuckyLloyd

G.K. wrote: »

For people talking about stats like crossing or 'goal per game ratio', It's more complex than that. Look at the calculation for OBP, for example.

A stat I'd like to have but isn't available afaik, if I were implementing a moneyball (Or sabremetrics, the actual term), would be pressured (i.e. where a player is being pressed/closed down/tightly marked) passing completion rate - that's the kind of stat that would be useful.

I don't doubt that Premiership clubs have people employed to take gametape and create new forms of statistical analysis.

KeithAFC

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

:):rolleyes::o:mad::(:eek::cool::P:confused::pac:

:pac:

It is true though. Ok, you could perhaps look at some stats but to try and base stats on trying to build a football team? I think that is nonsense to be honest.

SM01

KeithAFC wrote: »

No I won't shut the **** up thank you very much. Moneyball is just a lot of nonsense which is based on stats. That is all I need to know.

I'm guessing the polite version of what LuckyLloyd is suggesting is 'do some reseach on the subject you're discussing if you want to be taken seriously.'

You said you looked it up on Amazon - that absolutely does not make you in any way informed on the subject. At best you've a vague notion of what it is and are susceptible to making incorrect assumptions based on your interpretation. Find out more before you take such a firm stance.

Dr Galen

KeithAFC wrote: »

No I won't shut the **** up thank you very much. Moneyball is just a lot of nonsense which is based on stats. That is all I need to know.

If that was all it was then you would be right. It isn't, so you are wrong.

Really, go and read up about it, properly

G.K.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Or how they control the ball, corners, defending set pieces, football intelligence, creating space on the pitch, pace, movement, confidence and so on.

How is that relevant to my point?

G.K.

KeithAFC wrote: »

:pac:

It is true though. Ok, you could perhaps look at some stats but to try and base stats on trying to build a football team? I think that is nonsense to be honest.

I do keep saying stats aren't the only thing to be taken into consideration, but this keeps going over people's heads.

Oranage2

Liverpool fans really do make me laugh!

Each year it's like one of those get rich quick schemes for them. But instead of getting rich they think they'll win the league.

StephenHendry

LFC are big time underachievers , they need to get their act together before they are champions again like here

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/video/history-nineties/9806-18th-title

Dr Galen

Considering that more or less every top level team across Europe uses a version of sabermetrics and statistical analysis, your lack of a clue is 100 times funnier than a Kanye gif tbh

Oranage2

Dr Galen wrote: »

Considering that more or less every top level team across Europe uses a version of sabermetrics and statistical analysis, you lack of a clue is 100 times funnier than a Kanye gif tbh

First question:

So do you think Liverpool have tried this moneyball strategy?

Second question:

Will Liverpool get top 5 next season?

StephenHendry

finally an answer to the OPs question if this comes about

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17698239

MonkeyTennis

Oranage2 wrote: »

First question:

So do you think Liverpool have tried this moneyball strategy? NO

Second question:

Will Liverpool get top 5 next season?

NO

Snakeblood

Oranage2 wrote: »

First question:

So do you think Liverpool have tried this moneyball strategy?

Second question:

Will Liverpool get top 5 next season?

That's not the same as asking whether sabermetrics does or can work. Liverpool haven't proved to be good at it, but then, I'm not good at brain surgery. It still works if people are good at it. The jury is still out on whether sabermetrics works with people who are competent in charge.

Dr Galen

Oranage2 wrote: »

First question:

So do you think Liverpool have tried this moneyball strategy?

Second question:

Will Liverpool get top 5 next season?

Every top club ( and many in lower leagues) use versions of statistical analysis. Liverpool have attempted to build on this. That being said though, it takes time, and will not bring major change in one season tbh.

You seem to think that ONLY stats are used in making footballing decisions. That is simply not the case. It is a blend of the qualitative and the qualitative that happens. That also takes time to work out and tweak.

Will Liverpool get top 5 next season, honestly I don't know. It will depend on the summer imho. We have areas that we need to address with incoming players and need tow ork out how to get the best out of what we have. Considering that there is no guarantee that we'll even have the same manager next season, it's probably a bit premature to make that call. I do think we have the capability to challenge for top 5, should have done it this season really.

mufcboy1999

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, we've gone from "cat" to "mediocre". Progress!

But yeah, "mediocre" doesn't mean what you think it means either.

oooh, are you going to whip out the dictionary on me again?:eek:

you cant defend your team so you revert to grammer... pathetic, just like your team.

plasmaguy

Assuming Dalglish goes in the Summer based on it not working out, who is his most likely replacement?

I think Louis Van Gaul has expressed an interest, proven manager to be fair, although he'd probably rub everyone at the club up the wrong way.

Sven Goran Erickson, also a proven club manager, did a reasonable job at Man City.

Cappello, think the England job was his last one, and pool couldn't afford his wages.

AVB - Dark horse, might be worth a punt. I think the Chelsea saga was just a blip to be fair, impossible job with the owner sticking his nose in every five minutes. I reckon he'd be super motivated as well to prove himself.

I think the fact pool aren't in the CL wouldn't put off these managers too much.

Apart from that, in terms of British managers, Pardew, Rodgers and a few others.

If recent years are anything to go by, Hodgson, Dalglish and going back further to Evans and Souness, British managers haven't been a success in recent years for Liverpool.

LuckyLloyd

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

oooh, are you going to whip out the dictionary on me again?:eek:

you cant defend your team so you revert to grammer... pathetic, just like your team.

"Pathetic" doesn't mean what you think it means either.

LuckyLloyd

plasmaguy wrote: »

Sven Goran Erickson, also a proven club manager, did a reasonable job at Man City.

:eek:

Nalz

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh so you didn't read it. You should probably shut the **** about it then until you've read it (or at least grasped the basic concepts) tbh.

Well said!

niallo27

Oranage2 wrote: »

And Football is

different to Baseball

FACT

Were you touched up on a tour of liverpool FC when you were a kid or something, I just don't understand the constant hate.

KeithAFC

Dr Galen wrote: »

If that was all it was then you would be right. It isn't, so you are wrong.

Really, go and read up about it, properly

Do I have to read up on it when I don't think it works? I mean, I don't need to read a book on astrology to think it is bollocks.

G.K.

You don't know what it is you're lambasting though...

mufcboy1999

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

oooh, are you going to whip out the dictionary on me again?:eek:

you cant defend your team so you revert to grammer... pathetic, just like your team.

"Pathetic" doesn't mean what you think it means either.

Lucky Lloyd clearly means f*ck all considering Liverpool havnt won the league in how long ??

~Rebel~

KeithAFC wrote: »

I looked it up on amazon and it seems to come from baseball?

KeithAFC wrote: »

No I won't shut the **** up thank you very much. Moneyball is just a lot of nonsense which is based on stats. That is all I need to know.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Do I have to read up on it when I don't think it works?

I call shenanigans.

Noone's that stupid.

eagle eye

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Have Newcastle ever said that they were using a moneyball strategy? They seem to just scout well and take a punt on players that others are wary of due to injuries and attitude such as Ben Arfa and Ba.

Cisse shows us another variable not as prominent in the US - the fact that the majority of the world's best baseball players play in the league you are purchasing them to play in. A lot of people had heard of Cisse and had an idea that he was doing well for Hoffenheim.

But then, it's hard to know whether this will translate over to the PL. Dzeko was immense for Wolfsburg but has hardly lit up the league. Mame Biram Diouf is now banging them in for Hannover but never really looked that kind of player for United. Cisse could have gone either way.

There are also tactical systems that players will do well in that the signing team are unwilling to use. For instance, Leon Britton has been excellent is Swansea's patient, passing game where the whole system suits his playing style.

If, say, Manchester United recognise that they need a midfielder to replace Scholes, look at Scholes' passing stats and then look at Britton's it would be reasonable to surmise that he would suit United to a tee. But then, United's passing game is different. They need inch perfect passes to the wingers, forward passes to the strikers. They are constantly putting the other team under pressure and need probing passes that bring teammates into play in dangerous areas. Does Leon Britton suit this?

Basically, you can look at all the stats you want in football but the most effective analysis is qualitative. It will henceforth be known as Useyoureyesball.

Have you never heard of Prozone? Statisical analysis is nothing new to the Premier League, moneyball in baseball is just a system used for future evolvement of players based on those type of stats. Prozone offer a lot of stuff to managers and you can even use them to see how a player would work in your team if prozone have stats on him from games at his current club.

niallo27

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Lucky Lloyd clearly means f*ck all considering Liverpool havnt won the league in how long ??

If your going to have a dig at least try and a be a bit creative.

Jesus Wept

cambo2008 wrote: »

Sorry if I'm getting you mixed up with someone else but I keep picturing you as Tex from Alan Partridge......AmericaniZe everything.

Fixed your post.
Have a nice day.

Will I Amnt

Andy Carroll wrote: »

cambo2008 wrote: »

Sorry if I'm getting you mixed up with someone else but I keep picturing you as Tex from Alan Partridge......AmericaniZe everything.

Fixed your post.
Have a nice day.

Be gone with your bastardiSed versions of our adopted language.

KeithAFC

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I call shenanigans.

Noone's that stupid.

People have already told me it doesn't work. So why bother buying it and reading it.

wcarey1975

KeithAFC wrote: »

People have already told me it doesn't work. So why bother buying it and reading it.

Only time will actually tell if it doesnt work as it wont change in the short term. People also said it wouldnt work in baseball. The basis should work just the actual system will need to be adopted differently based on the different type of stats between the 2.

W

Oranage2

KeithAFC wrote: »

People have already told me it doesn't work. So why bother buying it and reading it.

Worked in baseball.

The reason Liverpool fans are so adamant it works because John Henry used the moneyball strategy and won the baseball cup, Liverpool in their trademark delusion think John Henry will win them league title. They also think how many times you cross the ball into the box wins games. That's why downing is infact their savior who will win them this title.

It works in baseball but doesnt work in football!

Now stats on players are also done in football, something like football manager stats, shots, tackles things like this.

Moneyball in football doesnt work or else teams like Stoke who just play long ball would be winning champion leagues - Just doesnt work that way I'm afraid.

G.K.

Oranage2 wrote: »

Worked in baseball.

After a period of waiting.

Oranage2 wrote: »

The reason Liverpool fans are so adamant it works because John Henry used the moneyball strategy and won the baseball cup, Liverpool in their trademark delusion think John Henry will win them league title. They also think how many times you cross the ball into the box wins games. That's why downing is infact their savior who will win them this title.

I'm not a Liverpool fan, and I'm vociferously arguing for it.

Oranage2 wrote: »

It works in baseball but doesnt work in football!

We'll just have to wait and see.

Oranage2 wrote: »

Now stats on players are also done in football, something like football manager stats, shots, tackles things like this.

Moneyball in football doesnt work or else teams like Stoke who just play long ball would be winning champion leagues - Just doesnt work that way I'm afraid.

None of this makes any sense.

LuckyLloyd

Oranage2 wrote: »

Worked in baseball.

The reason Liverpool fans are so adamant it works because John Henry used the moneyball strategy and won the baseball cup, Liverpool in their trademark delusion think John Henry will win them league title. They also think how many times you cross the ball into the box wins games. That's why downing is infact their savior who will win them this title.

It works in baseball but doesnt work in football!

Now stats on players are also done in football, something like football manager stats, shots, tackles things like this.

Moneyball in football doesnt work or else teams like Stoke who just play long ball would be winning champion leagues - Just doesnt work that way I'm afraid.

This is a how to of epically bad posting.

monkey9

Oranage2 wrote: »

Worked in baseball.

The reason Liverpool fans are so adamant it works because John Henry used the moneyball strategy and won the baseball cup, Liverpool in their trademark delusion think John Henry will win them league title. They also think how many times you cross the ball into the box wins games. That's why downing is infact their savior who will win them this title.

It works in baseball but doesnt work in football!

Now stats on players are also done in football, something like football manager stats, shots, tackles things like this.

Moneyball in football doesnt work or else teams like Stoke who just play long ball would be winning champion leagues - Just doesnt work that way I'm afraid.

More myths and lies!!!