Hot water cylinder upgrade

Redwid

Hi all,

I'm looking for replacement to my old hot water cylinder that is small (about 1 m in height) and doesn't have a pump.

Does anybody could recommend any supplier and installers to me?

sullzz

Probably just as cheap these days to go for a stainless steel cylinder with the way copper prices are gone , i can't give you suppliers names as you didn't give a location

JohnnieK

Agree with sullzz. There is a great stainless steel cylinder on the market made by Gledhill. The agents for them are Precision Heating and are based in Ballycoolin. If you rang them they could give you a list of stockists and installers. It is called the enviro foam.

Redwid

Thanks Lads, going to check prices with precisionheating.

I'm in Lucan area.

JohnnieK

Just be mindful. The installer will get it cheaper for you as percision dont give discounts to the public. They are giving a free immersion with the cylinder at the mo.

TPM

The gledhill cylinders are good, just beware they are not suitable for use with gravity/ solid fuel systems

Selfbuilderx

Hi,
Can anyone tell me if Joule cylinders are any good.

shane0007

Selfbuilderx wrote: »

Hi,
Can anyone tell me if Joule cylinders are any good.

Yes, excellent quality. Both copper and stainless steel are extremely good quality, especially the ss range. I use them a lot.

Selfbuilderx

Thanks Shane,
I'm looking at the 250L twin coil cyclone solar ss one.

shane0007

I have installed that one numerous times. Very good cylinder. You won't be disappointed. It has lots of temperature sockets to give you plenty of location choices. You will only lose about 5-6C over a 24 hour period.

Selfbuilderx

Thanks again Shane,
Do you have any idea of the price of the one i'm looking at?

anthonyos

shane0007 wrote: »

I have installed that one numerous times. Very good cylinder. You won't be disappointed. It has lots of temperature sockets to give you plenty of location choices. You will only lose about 5-6C over a 24 hour period.

how would that compare to a stanard insulated copper cylinder???as far as temp drop

shane0007

Not sure what you will be quoted but I get a fairly good deal on them because of the amount I purchase. That particular one, I pay, I think, €550 + vat. You maybe quoted circa €630 €650 + vat. This is for the vented version without the pressure kit. Add about €100 odd + vat for the pressure kit if you are going that route.

Selfbuilderx

Shane'
That sound good to me, Thanks alot for your help.

shane0007

anthonyos wrote: »

how would that compare to a stanard insulated copper cylinder???as far as temp drop

It depends upon the thickness and the consistency of the thickness of the spray foam insulation, but basically approx loss of 30C over same period. You heat the cylinder and tomorrow the water is fairly cold/Luke warm.

How so, you may ask, well basically, copper is a natural conductor of heat. It will heat itself and in that it will take heat from the water within it in doing so.
Stainless steel, on the other hand, is not as natural a heat conductor as copper and doesn't take as much heat from the water within it.
Secondly, they are, more so, within what I call a fridge finish plastic moulding and therefore the insulation is of a more consistent thickness. Copper cylinders are generally found to have very varied thicknesses around the same cylinder, especially from certain manufacturers.

corkgsxr

mm we have a large ss solar cylinder in the parents house. from water heated night before i used to wash the van at 6 or 7 the next night and it`d be proper hot. very little loss

kscobie

Just dont fit a stainless steel cylinder on a well supply, it would invalidate the warranty.
Stainless steel = water mains
Copper = well supply.

TPM

kscobie wrote: »

Just dont fit a stainless steel cylinder on a well supply, it would invalidate the warranty.
Stainless steel = water mains
Copper = well supply.

You are only suppose to use grade 3 copper on mains(treated) supply.

Even if fitting a stainless steel cylinder on a well supply does invalidate the warranty, it is better than fitting a copper one which wont last near as long anyway

kscobie

I use a 2 bar copper cylinder on a well, either a Joule or Grant, never had a problem:)

shane0007

kscobie wrote: »

Just dont fit a stainless steel cylinder on a well supply, it would invalidate the warranty.
Stainless steel = water mains
Copper = well supply.

That is not true. If the water conditions meet the parameters of the manufacturer warranty levels, the warranty is still valid for stainless steel.

I am involved in a case at the moment, where the the homeowner has had two failed stainless steel cylinders in 4 years. I requested a water test and it was found that the water treatment installation company set the salt level too high and the number of back washes too frequent. This lead to over 280 of sodium which ate the stainless steel welds in the cylinder.
On discussing with Joule, they stated if the cylinder is within their specified parameters, the cylinder has a 25 year warranty.

Always check the small print of a manufacturer's warranty conditions and I know of none that specify your statement in writing.

jimjimt

The reason you are not suppose to fit a stainless steel cylinder to a well supply is got to do with oxygen levels.

Some wells the water is lacking oxygen and decays the cylinder. Hence the need for a proper water testing.
So manufactures are starting to put it in there TOC's.

Osmosis treated water will eat through stainless steel also.

knock on wood I never had a problem with a stainless steel cylinder so far from any brand.

Health services and the like are going back to copper cylinders for its natural anti bacterial properties.

I requested a water test and it was found that the water treatment installation company set the salt level too high and the number of back washes too frequent. This lead to over 280 of sodium which ate the stainless steel welds in the cylinder.

Just curious did the high levels of salt affect any copper in any way ?

shane0007

kscobie wrote: »

Just dont fit a stainless steel cylinder on a well supply, it would invalidate the warranty.
Stainless steel = water mains
Copper = well supply.

Apologies, kscobie, you are absolutely correct and I am wrong. I just pulled out the warranty and it does state warranty is only valid when fed from public mains water supply.
They told me verbally that they would cover this clients new cylinder if the following chemical criteria was met:

TDS <600mg/L
TOTAL HARDNESS <200mg/L
CHLORIDE <300mg/L
MAGNESIUM <10mg/L
PH Between 6.5 & 9.5
CALCIUM <20mg/L
SODIUM <150mg/L
IRON <1mg/L

shane0007

jimjimt wrote: »

Just curious did the high levels of salt affect any copper in any way ?

No, no other damage other than to the welds within the stainless steel cylinder.
BTW, I did not install any of the previous cylinders. I am just taking over the installation. The previous installer also put solid fuel into the pressurised cylinder. Hmmm.... Boom Boom

corkgsxr

shane0007 wrote: »

No, no other damage other than to the welds within the stainless steel cylinder.
BTW, I did not install any of the previous cylinders. I am just taking over the installation. The previous installer also put solid fuel into the pressurised cylinder. Hmmm.... Boom Boom

Wrong rods or bad quality welds?

Surely fine if a pressure and temp blowoff fitted?

shane0007

corkgsxr wrote: »

Wrong rods or bad quality welds?

What, 2 cylinders in 4 years. Last one lasted 18 months.
Tests showed very high sodium. It only had <20mg/L before the filter and 280mg/L after the filter. The salt ate the welds.

corkgsxr wrote: »

Surely fine if a pressure and temp blowoff fitted?

I don't think you understand the principles and associated dangers of a pressurised cylinder and uncontrollable heat sources.
A brief outline:
Atmospheric pressure conditions, water boils at 100C.
1 bar pressure, water boils at 122C
2 bar pressure, water boils at 144C
3 bar pressure, water boils at 178C
Pressurised cylinders have pressure reducing valves set to 3 bar.
1 litre of water when boiled produces 1,600 litres of steam.
Let's say solid fuel boils the cylinder at 100C. No problem so far as the cylinder is at 3 bar pressure so it's boiling point is 178C.
Householder opens a tap, this brings the cylinder pressure back to at atmospheric pressure and therefore the boiling point is now back to 100C.
Lets say the cylinder is a 300L cylinder. That means that 300 x 1,600 = 480,000 litres of steam will now try to escape through an opened tap.
Boom boom, your house has just been relocated!

It is why you should be certified to install one.

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

Surely fine if a pressure and temp blowoff fitted?

Nope;)

shane0007

shane0007 wrote: »

What, 2 cylinders in 4 years. Last one lasted 18 months.
Tests showed very high sodium. It only had <20mg/L before the filter and 280mg/L after the filter. The salt ate the welds.




I don't think you understand the principles and associated dangers of a pressurised cylinder and uncontrollable heat sources.
A brief outline:
Atmospheric pressure conditions, water boils at 100C.
1 bar pressure, water boils at 122C
2 bar pressure, water boils at 144C
3 bar pressure, water boils at 178C
Pressurised cylinders have pressure reducing valves set to 3 bar.
1 litre of water when boiled produces 1,600 litres of steam.
Let's say solid fuel boils the cylinder at 100C. No problem so far as the cylinder is at 3 bar pressure so it's boiling point is 178C.
Householder opens a tap, this brings the cylinder pressure back to at atmospheric pressure and therefore the boiling point is now back to 100C.
Lets say the cylinder is a 300L cylinder. That means that 300 x 1,600 = 480,000 litres of steam will now try to escape through an opened tap.
Boom boom, your house has just been relocated!

It is why you should be certified to install one.

3 1/2bar and the cylinder when hot can be sitting at 5bar and let's not forget it's not unusual to see the 6 bar dripping and if it's capped (common) then the 7 bar dripping.

As a cylinders manufactures tech I get to see a lot of install and it's not funny:( just for anyone interested the only plastic pipe that can be used with these cylinders on the discharge is white with a red line going through it, the rest might aswell be paper.

Stainless steel and well water tends not to work, the word on the street is glass lined fairs better, but it's all dependent on the well water.

corkgsxr

But why only the welds and not the material of the cylinder, points to a quality issue, a proper weld should be as strong as the metal itself.

I'm quite aware but with a pressure/temp relief valve it never gets to boiling at 178 degrees, it vents at about 80 degrees

Also if a stove is at 100 degrees it's boiling, being a open system, unless you mean there pressurised a stove?

And if a stove is boiling you'll know something is wrong. You can't have a situation where you end up with massively higher than 100 degrees in the cylinder.

shane0007

I am not going to get into another argument with you, nor am I going to try to educate you.
Read back my post and you will realise that the solid fuel does not need to get to 178C. It only needs to get it to 100C.
Have you never seen an installation where a plonker has blanked the ovsp to stop it pitching? Billy Bunting can post a picture of a recent one he came across. All it would take is a mouse to fall into the f & e tank and block the f & e pipe. Light a fire and you have a problem. Even without those scenarios, have you never seen a solid boil over the ovsp into the f & e tank and producing steam!

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

You can't have a situation where you end up with massively higher than 100 degrees in the cylinder.

it's dangerious to never say never, it has happened and can happen and every cylinder installation should be approached as it could happen, paranoia is a beautiful thing.

It's always the welds, I'm told by cleverer people than myself that's it's to do with electrolysis.

corkgsxr

To get 178 degrees in the cylinder you need to get 178 degrees in the coil. You can't get more heat than you put in

It's not possible in a open vented stove to get 178 degrees water temperature.

And besides if the temperature goes over about 90 degrees the pressure/temperature relief will vent hot water,

corkgsxr

gary71 wrote: »

it's dangerious to never say never, it has happened and can happen and every cylinder installation should be approached as it could happen, paranoia is a beautiful thing.

It's always the welds, I'm told by cleverer people than myself that's it's to do with electrolysis.

You could equally say a gas boiler is unsafe, if you have a PCB glitch or stats fail it could be unregulated sealed system capable of boiling to steam.

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

To get 178 degrees in the cylinder you need to get 178 degrees in the coil. You can't get more heat than you put in

It's not possible in a open vented stove to get 178 degrees water temperature.

And besides if the temperature goes over about 90 degrees the pressure/temperature relief will vent hot water,

If you get a opportunity go on a G3 course in the North, it's a safety course you must go on just to fit or work on unvented in the UK, every cylinder is inspected by the local building inspector on installation, this is because of the real danger unvented poses when fitted by installer that don't get it.

shane0007

You have missed the whole point.
Forget 178C. The solid fuel gets to 100C. The cylinder is now at 100C, ok? No problem there as at 3 bar pressure the cylinder will not convert to steam as its boiling point is 178C at that pressure. With every bar of pressure you get a direct increase in temperature free of charge. You must have missed the Boyle's Law lesson in school!
Now you have a higher temperature within the cylinder as it is under pressure. Still no problem as the boiling point is still at 178C.
Tap opens. Now the pressure within the cylinder is brought back to atmospheric pressure, i.e. 0 bar pressure. Boiling point is now back to 100C and therefore the 300 litres of water will convert to steam as it is now suddenly at the reduced boiling point of 100C. The enormous volume of steam has to convert to somewhere.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ekEHfihiNz4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DekEHfihiNz4

shane0007

gary71 wrote: »

If you get a opportunity go on a G3 course in the North, it's a safety course you must go on just to fit or work on unvented in the UK, every cylinder is inspected by the local building inspector on installation, this is because of the real danger unvented poses when fitted by installer that don't get it.

It is also run in Metac, Mountrath, Co. Laois.

corkgsxr

gary71 wrote: »

If you get a opportunity go on a G3 course in the North, it's a safety course you must go on just to fit or work on unvented in the UK, every cylinder is inspected by the local building inspector on installation, this is because of the real danger unvented poses when fitted by installer that don't get it.

Can you tell me how you get more than, 100 degrees in the cylinder.

Even if the stove boils that's 100 degrees. At atmospheric pressure it can't exceed 100 anything after that is a increase in latent heat not temperature.

Even that's ignoring the tempature relief to keep it below 90 degrees

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

You could equally say a gas boiler is unsafe, if you have a PCB glitch or stats fail it could be unregulated sealed system capable of boiling to steam.

You could, but I won't, let's instead talk about the 3 bar blow off and the overheats and low water content heat exchangers now that would be sensible chit chat, have you seen superheated steam leave a unvented cylinder:eek: puts manors on you, did me, gas boilers and unvented are not for the same conversation.

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

Can you tell me how you get more than, 100 degrees in the cylinder.

Even if the stove boils that's 100 degrees. At atmospheric pressure it can't exceed 100 anything after that is a increase in latent heat not temperature.

Even that's ignoring the tempature relief to keep it below 90 degrees

I honestly don't know where to start, go on a course, unvented is serious and it shouldn't be left for a Internet site to give you the information you need to work safely.

corkgsxr

shane0007 wrote: »

You have missed the whole point.
Forget 178C. The solid fuel gets to 100C. The cylinder is now at 100C, ok? No problem there as at 3 bar pressure the cylinder will not convert to steam as its boiling point is 178C at that pressure. With every bar of pressure you get a direct increase in temperature free of charge. You must have missed the Boyle's Law lesson in school!
Now you have a higher temperature within the cylinder as it is under pressure. Still no problem as the boiling point is still at 178C.
Tap opens. Now the pressure within the cylinder is brought back to atmospheric pressure, i.e. 0 bar pressure. Boiling point is now back to 100C and therefore the 300 litres of water will convert to steam as it is now suddenly at the reduced boiling point of 100C. The enormous volume of steam has to convert to somewhere.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ekEHfihiNz4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DekEHfihiNz4

They kept heating the tank with flame, huge heat. a coil at 100 degrees won't do that

You can't get free heat, energy can't be created or destroyed only transfered. Compress water at 100 degrees and you can compress it all you want but it's still water at 100 degrees. It doesn't rise in temperature.

gary71 wrote: »

You could, but I won't, let's instead talk about the 3 bar blow off and the overheats and low water content heat exchangers now that would be sensible chit chat, have you seen superheated steam leave a unvented cylinder:eek: puts manors on you, did me, gas boilers and unvented are not for the same conversation.

Mm and what about a pressure/temperature relief valve. It can't rise over the set pressure or temperature.

shane0007

corkgsxr wrote: »

Can you tell me how you get more than, 100 degrees in the cylinder.

You are still not reading my post!

shane0007 wrote: »

With every bar of pressure you get a direct increase in temperature free of charge. You must have missed the Boyle's Law lesson in school!

I should get paid for this! Look it up, Boyle's Law, that is.....

corkgsxr

gary71 wrote: »

I honestly don't know where to start, go on a course, unvented is serious and it shouldn't be left for a Internet site to give you the information you need to work safely.

So can you explain how you can get over 100 degree when your heat source can't go over 100 degrees.

You can't it defys physics.

If it can't get over 100 degrees it won't turn to steam out the taps.

And all this is still ignoring a pressure/temperature relief that will keep temperature below 90 degrees.

shane0007

corkgsxr wrote: »

You can't get free heat, energy can't be created or destroyed only transfered. Compress water at 100 degrees and you can compress it all you want but it's still water at 100 degrees. It doesn't rise in temperature.

You can.

corkgsxr wrote: »

Mm and what about a pressure/temperature relief valve. It can't rise over the set pressure or temperature.

They can fail, they can stick and oh yeah, Fruitloops can blank them, which is more often the case!

shane0007

corkgsxr wrote: »

You can't it defys physics.

It could possibly be a given that you or me do not know how a man landed on the moon, it also defied physics but a man did land there.

Boyle's Law is basic secondary school physics. If you cannot understand this principle, it is really not my place to continue this as it is going nowhere. Perhaps this information should be kept in a far far place and the moral of the storey is, anybody not understanding the principles of unvented cylinder installations should really leave them to persons who do.

jimstir

Hi Guys, I just got my copper cylinder replaced. I'm wondering what to do with the old one. Does anyone know a legitimate place in Limerick or Galway that I can bring it to get a few bob for it? It's a standard one from the 1980s about 1m high. Anyone have a rough idea what it's worth?

corkgsxr

shane0007 wrote: »

You are still not reading my post!



I should get paid for this! Look it up, Boyle's Law, that is.....

Increase the temperature and you get a increase in volume and pressure.

You increase the volume of the cylinder your not increasing the pressure (expansion vessel) so you won't a increase of heat. You need to increase of both to get heat. And small amounts at that


Besides all this my point of it being safe is based on a pressure/temperature relief valve keeping temperature below 90 degrees. If temperature stays below 90 degrees its just a very hot tap. It can't go to steam.

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

So can you explain how you can get over 100 degree when your heat source can't go over 100 degrees.

You can't it defys physics.

If it can't get over 100 degrees it won't turn to steam out the taps.

And all this is still ignoring a pressure/temperature relief that will keep temperature below 90 degrees.

I work for a manufacture of unvented cylinders, it's me that goes out across this country to inspect, identify and repair, even a slow learner like me is going to pick up a bit over 10 years plus I have my G3 which I resit every 5 years so I get it, you don't, seriously, if you are working on unvented cylinders do a course.

A couple of years ago I went to a call where the T/P was not fitted and a cap was in its place, so when I see a question like " your ignoring the T/P valve" i have a little chuckle cos in all honesty it's not me forgetting I'm worried about, it's the bloody installer forgetting I'm worried about

corkgsxr

shane0007 wrote: »

You can.




They can fail, they can stick and oh yeah, Fruitloops can blank them, which is more often the case!

Fail yes but usually get weaker, ie less temperature or less pressure.

And fruitloops can do a lot to make things dangerous, they could blank the feed and expansion on the stove making it pressurised, are you accountable to that

corkgsxr

gary71 wrote: »

I work for a manufacture of unvented cylinders, it's me that goes out across this country to inspect, identify and repair, even a slow learner like me is going to pick up a bit over 10 years plus I have my G3 which I resit every 5 years so I get it, you don't, seriously, if you are working on unvented cylinders do a course.

A couple of years ago I went to a call where the T/P was not fitted and a cap was in its place, so when I see a question like " your ignoring the T/P valve" i have a little chuckle cos in all honesty it's not me forgetting I'm worried about, it's the bloody installer forgetting I'm worried about

You say one fitted with a t/p is dangerous because someone might forget to fit one.

I agree one without one is dangerous. No arguments there. My point is with one fitted it makes it safe.

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

Besides all this my point of it being safe is based on a pressure/temperature relief valve keeping temperature below 90 degrees. If temperature stays below 90 degrees its just a very hot tap. It can't go to steam.

The manufactures who make the cylinder belive there can be a problem with steam and expect the discharge pipe to be designed specifically for safety , then the fact every single unvented installation in the UK has to be inspected before it can be used and every installer must prove he understands the dangers by passing a safety exam before dealing with unvented cylinders, all of that then there's you who says it can't happen, you could be right but I'm going to keep sticking to the MI thank you:D.

JohnnieK

Another simple thread that was started by someone with a simple question is dragged into the gutter.

What is this forum coming to.

jca

JohnnieK wrote: »

Another simple thread that was started by someone with a simple question is dragged into the gutter.

What is this forum coming to.

+1