Waiting for a Kayak

shotgunmcos

So, this weekend will be my first time sitting in a Kayak. Its a sit on 2 man thingy that I'm assured is like rowing a bath tub rather than a racing shell. I care not, its just a bit of fun.

Any tips for manoevering the thing efficiently greatly appreciated, however my question is around the time you have to wait for your partner or vice versa.

Lets say someone was waiting for a minute until you show up and you both hop into the Kayak. Obviously you both finish the Kayak section together but what then if you then sprint ahead and coss the line 5 seconds ahead of him? Have you beaten him by 5 seconds or is his wait time taken into account and he actually beats you by 55 seconds?

Enduro

That depends on how the race times things! You'd have to ask race organisers.

nerraw1111

I'm crap at kayaking so can't help there.

Re what happens at transition. Depends on the race. Gaelforce, the first 30 or so all had to use a single kayak.

After that, people doubled up, and given the numbers, eventually people were timed out while they waited.

Other races, it seems tough **** if you get there and there is no one to partner with. Best off asking the organisers. I must ask myself in relation to a race coming up.

It's only really an issue for the top 10, as after that, you'll easily pick up a partner.

hardCopy

The only tip I ever got was to put the big man in the back.

The timing would depend on the race, at Gaelforce you're clock stops while waiting for a Kayak, this is because there aren't always enough kayaks to go around.

Elites must start in the first wave to be eligible for prizes and AFAIK there are single kayaks all round in the first wave.

Enduro

hardCopy wrote: »

The only tip I ever got was to put the big man in the back.

The opposite if you were going into a strong headwind. Think about the heavier end being the pivot point, and the effect of slight direction changes into a headwind and how the boat would react, depending on where it pivots.

In general put the one who knows how to steer the boat in the back, irrespective of size, if only one knows what they're doing.

KentuckyPete

shotgun, like you I spent a lot of time in rowing. The same principles apply in the canoe - it's just not as efficient. I assume you'll have done some work in pairs or sculls so you'll know about steering.

1. Put the other guy in front. That way you can make certain you're both paddling in time. Don't be afraid to call the strokes if he's completely out of whack - tell him you've rowed a fair bit

2. Put the other guy in front. That way you can easily correct steering errors - a wide shallow sweep stroke on the side you want to steer away from will quickly right the boat. You may even have to back on one side if the front lad is pure dire

3. Let the boat run (where have you heard that before?;)). Encourage partner in this regard. Don't lean out massively to take strokes as unlike a shell, you're both leaning the same way.

4. Clean catch and finish

TJGer

Shotgun, for Sunday you get timed in and out of the kayak transition. Clock stops until you get your kayak and cross the mat to begin that leg.

Dutchie

Some basic tips.
Sit up straight. Your back is your strongest set of muscles, so use it to rotate around every stroke.
Keep your arms high (eye level) Place the blade as close to the boat as possible (catch). Keep the paddles vertical, drive off the footplate with your foot. Rotate around the stroke keeping you shoulders square (Pull). Rotate the blade past your hip, don't force the exit of the blade.
And then repeat. Easy!

Enduro

Dutchie wrote: »

Some basic tips.
Sit up straight. Your back is your strongest set of muscles, so use it to rotate around every stroke.
Keep your arms high (eye level) Place the blade as close to the boat as possible (catch). Keep the paddles vertical, drive off the footplate with your foot. Rotate around the stroke keeping you shoulders square (Pull). Rotate the blade past your hip, don't force the exit of the blade.
And then repeat. Easy!

Jeeze... you make it sound so easy Great post.

One other tip I can think of.. don't try to pull the paddle through the water. Most people if left to their own devices seem to do that (I certainly did). As Dutchie says, the power is generated from your feet and transmitted via your body rotation through to the paddle blades. The blade should be anchored in the water and you rotate past it. Think of having a poll planted in the water and rotating past it.

shotgunmcos

So spoke to the RD last night and turns out that there is a timeout section before the Kayak which is good. There will also be a choice of single or double Kayaks which is good too??

Dutchie and KP thanks for the tips. Makes sense re: fulcrum of the blade, catch, finish etc...

So would you guys prefer a single or double Kayak? I'd imagine a good double is faster than good single but good Kayaker will beat most of the thrown together doubles on the water?

Enduro

If they are both S(h)it-on-tops, then the double every time. You'd want to be horrendously unlucky with your paddle partner to be disadvantaged in a double.

Peterx

Also make full use of the time out.

Get recovered, take on food and drink, cast flirtatious glances at good kayakers arriving, that sort of thing.

jeffontour

Enduro wrote: »

You'd want to be horrendously unlucky with your paddle partner to be disadvantaged in a double.

I once got in with a guy who whacked me across the head about 5 times during the WAR paddle. You'd be surprised how unlucky you can be....

nerraw1111

I got a brutal partner once. Which made two brutal kayakers. I think I lost about five minutes as a result.

There's a race coming up in 2 weeks where you're not timed out. Must wait for a partner. Which is a bit of a pain if you happen to be the odd person arriving there.

Presumably, you'll try and hook up with someone on the bike before then?

Peterx

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I got a brutal partner once. Which made to brutal kayakers. I think I lost about five minutes as a result.

There's a race coming up in 2 weeks where you're not timed out. Must wait for a partner. Which is a bit of a pain if you happen to be the odd person arriving there.

Presumably, you'll try and hook up with someone on the bike before then?

Or are you allowed bring your own kayak instead of waiting?

nerraw1111

Peterx wrote: »

Or are you allowed bring your own kayak instead of waiting?

Yeah you can bring your own kayak. That's appears to be the best option, even over two people on the sit ons. Not an option for me alas. I'd be hoping to arrive at the kayaks near the front end, would piss me off having to wait. Could be best to either sit up on the bike and wait rather than wasting energy

shotgunmcos

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Presumably, you'll try and hook up with someone on the bike before then?

Yeah could do. There is a 10k trail run after the first bike so I can suss out the runners as they scoot off and try and chase them down on the 2nd bike before the kayak. There is a bike again after the Kayak. There is also a short run from the bike to Kayak and vice versa so it hardly worth changing into running shoes for that. I presume you are allowed to Kayak barefoot?

20-30 secs of a difference between someone clipping in and someone who doesn't. With at least 4 transitions I'm already giving up 1-2 minutes to any of the AR lads.

There is a bike after the Kayak too with a 800m run off it for a finish. I can see myself doing this run barefoot as there is no point in wasting time changing shoes for that!!

Dutchie

Enduro wrote: »

Jeeze... you make it sound so easy Great post.

One other tip I can think of.. don't try to pull the paddle through the water. Most people if left to their own devices seem to do that (I certainly did). As Dutchie says, the power is generated from your feet and transmitted via your body rotation through to the paddle blades. The blade should be anchored in the water and you rotate past it. Think of having a poll planted in the water and rotating past it.

Not to get too technical, unless you are using a 'winged' type paddle, you will always pull the blade past the boat. A winged type blade, when properly used will actually exit the water ahead of where it was entered. A wing type blade acts like a solid pole stuck in the water with you pulling yourself past it!

What i dont understand is why more competitors dont train in fast kayaks for the adventure races. Whats the point of having a strong bike and run leg and then have all of your good work undone by having to wait for somebody at the kayak section.

Enduro

Dutchie wrote: »

What i dont understand is why more competitors dont train in fast kayaks for the adventure races. Whats the point of having a strong bike and run leg and then have all of your good work undone by having to wait for somebody at the kayak section.

Ah, but most of the adventure races I know (myself included) do train in fast(er) kayaks (Sea kayaks generally), and with wings too.

I don't know what race shotgunmcos is doing, but I'm guessing its a multisports race with a very short kayak section. In fairness to competitors in these kind of races, there's not a lot of time to be gained and lost in the kayak sections of these races, so there isn't a huge amount to be gained by putting in lots of training hours of honing technique and efficiency, and if I was coaching someone for one of those races I would just bring them up to a level of being able to move the boat steadily forward in a straight line. beyond that the training hours involved could probably be more effectively used to to increase speed in cycling and running.

In adventure races the kayak legs are usually much longer (one nice 70km-ish river section in the last one I did), so there is a huge amount to be gained and lost in the kayak legs themselves, as well as a massive gain to be made in overall race speed by being more comfortable and efficient. But that's a whole other way off topic discussion. (The biggest single gain I made by training for kayaking was going from tolerating it to loving it)

Enduro

jeffontour wrote: »

I once got in with a guy who whacked me across the head about 5 times during the WAR paddle. You'd be surprised how unlucky you can be....

I'd probably do the same if you were in my boat Seriosly though, that Noonan fella is a fecker for the violence all the same.

So the top tip there for the lad in front is... wear your cycle helmet on the kayak stage, even if its not mandatory

shotgunmcos

Enduro wrote: »

I don't know what race shotgunmcos is doing, but I'm guessing its a multisports race with a very short kayak section.

Correct - just 700m paddle within a 'short' 2.5-3.5 hour race

Enduro do you clip in or use caged pedals on your road bike for short races (if you do them)?

What event was it that had a 70km paddle, thats epic! :eek:

Enduro wrote: »

(The biggest single gain I made by training for kayaking was going from tolerating it to loving it)

For all the newbie triheads or aspiring tri heads, this is exactly the case for swimming too

eminems ma

I'm not 100% sure which race you are talking about but i've made a blog on one coming up soon which allows comments to be posted below. It might help people who like me don't know what they are getting into and have questions about it. You don't have to leave an email address. http://eminemsma.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/war-wicklow-adventure-race-glendalough/

nerraw1111

Be interesting to hear what your thoughts are on cages v clip in Shotgun given that you’re pretty handy on the bike and into your stats/measure progress in seconds.
When the topic has come up in the past, the consensus was that if you’ve to switch from running shoes to bike more than once, stick with the cages.
I’ve one coming up where it involves a bike after mountain run, then kayak, back on the bike, and then a 3km run to finish. Half thinking of using SPDs. Leave the trails shoes in transition, barefoot in the kayak and, I’ll have to check if its allowed, leave another pair of trainers in the last transition, for the 3km run. If not, I’ll go with cages as storing the runners on the bike seems like a pain.

Enduro

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Be interesting to hear what your thoughts are on cages v clip in Shotgun given that you’re pretty handy on the bike and into your stats/measure progress in seconds.
When the topic has come up in the past, the consensus was that if you’ve to switch from running shoes to bike more than once, stick with the cages.
I’ve one coming up where it involves a bike after mountain run, then kayak, back on the bike, and then a 3km run to finish. Half thinking of using SPDs. Leave the trails shoes in transition, barefoot in the kayak and, I’ll have to check if its allowed, leave another pair of trainers in the last transition, for the 3km run. If not, I’ll go with cages as storing the runners on the bike seems like a pain.

You've covered all the main factors there anyway. For me there are a few paramaters which determine which way to go. The number of transitions versus the length of the cycle legs is one. Whether a second pair of shoes would need to be carried at any point (running or cycling) is the other.

for the first one (number of transitions), if you're really into your measurements you could work out scientifically what the optimal solution is. Work out the time loss for using clips versus clipless over the distance of the cycling legs and compare it to the cumulative time used in transitions to fully change shoes. I've never actually run the maths myself, but will definitely roughly work it through in my head. It's very dependant on each particular race course. So, for example, Achill ROAR has just one transition from run to bike and the full cycle is done in one go, so well worth changing. GFW in contrast has run->cycle->run->cycle, so the transition times are not worth it for me in that race (Also taking the nature of the cycle legs into account).

For me the awkwardness of carrying extra shoes around is a big disadvantage. So for linear type races where you're never back to the same transition I'd be much less likely to use clipless unless the cycling legs were huge. Again, ROAR has only one physical transition so its perfect for changes, as you can just leave things behind knowing you'll return to them at the end of each leg. Even if GFW had only one transition I'd still consider not changing, since its linear. In some cases, such as CLEC, where the cycling is much more significant than the running, I'd run in my SPDs (which are deliberatly relatively walking/running friendly) and ditch pure running shoes altogether. Horses for courses. The potential for disaster if you haven't properly secured your running shoes whilst cycling is another factor.

nerraw, why go barefoot in the kayak. Why not just keep your cycling shoes on? It's going to cost you time to transition to barefoot, and I can't see any advantages.

Correct - just 700m paddle within a 'short' 2.5-3.5 hour race

Then the amount of time you can gain/lose on the kayak leg will be tiny. don't put a big effort into it... use the energy on the run and cycle instead.

What event was it that had a 70km paddle, thats epic!

The race was the XPD in Tasmania last November, which was also the world championships. There's a few videos in the link showing the course etc. to some degree. I can't find a full course map at the moment to really show the paddle legs. There were a lot of interesting feature in that race, to say the least. From a paddling POV, there was great variation accross the different legs. It started with a few hours paddling at sea down the coast (each team having one SOT and one rubber-ducky!), the second paddle section had all 4 teammebers in one (2 man) rubber ducky paddling for a few hours down a lake. Then it was a switch to a pair of SOTs for more lake paddling, including a hilly 2km-ish portage. The 70km was the highlight though. A long grade 2 river paddle through wilderness on a pristine river (saw 2 sea eagles, and a few platypusses/ platypii!, amongst other things), again with one SOT and one rubber-ducky. I had great craic on the rapids in the rubber-ducky. No paddling was allowed between 7pm and 6am, and no team managed to get the whole river done without being dark-zoned (we were half an hour short of managing it).

shotgunmcos

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Be interesting to hear what your thoughts are on cages v clip in Shotgun given that you’re pretty handy on the bike and into your stats/measure progress in seconds.
When the topic has come up in the past, the consensus was that if you’ve to switch from running shoes to bike more than once, stick with the cages.
I’ve one coming up where it involves a bike after mountain run, then kayak, back on the bike, and then a 3km run to finish. Half thinking of using SPDs. Leave the trails shoes in transition, barefoot in the kayak and, I’ll have to check if its allowed, leave another pair of trainers in the last transition, for the 3km run. If not, I’ll go with cages as storing the runners on the bike seems like a pain.

Hew Nerraw111 from what I've read its more about the energy transfer. When the solid soles of teh bike shoes are clipped in to the pedal there is a greater power transfer and less tiring. Particularly with a smooth circular motion where you can bring your hamstrings in to support your quads. I don't know if there is any speed difference as I've actaully never pedalled with cages.

I used the clip in approach in my AR a few weeks ago it meant I had to change shoes twice eitehr side of the mountain run. I'd estimate I lost a minute easily to the lads with runners and cages over the 2 transitions. I stored my running shoes at transition so I didn't ave to carry them for the tough bike section. I was fairly ragged after the mountain run andhad a slow slow T2. The eventual winner came into T2 with me but was 150m up the trail by the time I got out. He put 7 minutes into me on the mountain so it didn't matter anyway.

The AR this weekend is

Bike to run to bike to kayak to bike to run. There is a short run to and from the Kayak too. I'm assuming I can kayak barefoot?

If so then its 3 transitions and getting the feet back into the bike shoes (which will stay on the bike) after the kayak. The last run is 800m so it seems hardly worth changing shoes. It would mean running in barefeet for a finish if I am racing someone.

It seems to be a case for runners and cages which would saveme having to carrythe runners in a small backpack too.

For some reason though I can't imagine feeling the same power unless I was clipped in. The 3 bike sections make up 56 of the 72 kms in the ace.

ocnoc

Re the runners + clips V just cages

I have seen some Tri bikes with double drinks holders behind the saddle.
Would you squash a runner into each of the bottle holders??
If you have quick tie laces, surely you would make back the 15-30seconds of changing shoes by using clips on the bike when climbing?

shotgunmcos

ocnoc wrote: »

Re the runners + clips V just cages

I have seen some Tri bikes with double drinks holders behind the saddle.
Would you squash a runner into each of the bottle holders??
If you have quick tie laces, surely you would make back the 15-30seconds of changing shoes by using clips on the bike when climbing?

Don't use one of those and wouldn't risk losing one on some bumpy road. Def advantage on a climb to claw back a transition

shotgunmcos

More Kayaking questions!

Ok, I survived the 5 minute kayak section on the SOT but one thing struck me at the time. My feet didn't reach the plate or part where you can push off, hence I couldn't bring my legs in for balance or power. I'm 181cm so not short? Is this normal for SOTs or was I in one too big for me?

Another race coming up where I'll likely spend a couple of hours in the Kayak. Perhaps a dumb question, but do you pee the boat?

Also in a team of 4 with 2 SOTs where does the girl sit, assuming the girl is is decent kayaker?

In cycling or swimming you can draft off the person in front of you but from my rowing days I remember its not adviseable to row in another boats water. Is this also true for Kayaks?

Edit:
@ocnoc - I saw a lad stuff his runners into one of those rear mounted double bottle cages - it didn't work out!
@nerraw111 - I went with cages last time and it was so much less hassle. While there was a lot of biking it was all on road with no major climbing so I didn't lose much ower without the SPDs. The hill run was hard and the other runs were on road so you needed runners. Having said that I recently took the MTB onto trails and cages were a nightmare. So for offroad events I'd likely stick to SPDs but on road, multiple transitions and hard running I'd go with cages and runners

ThisRegard

At 181 cms I think you're about 2 inches taller than me and I've never had an issue with push off points for my feet, maybe the kayak was a different design ? In all the ones I've used there's usually a set of platforms at different distances from the seat and I just use the ones I find more comfortable at the time.

Hanley

ThisRegard wrote: »

At 181 cms I think you're about 2 inches taller than me and I've never had an issue with push off points for my feet, maybe the kayak was a different design ? In all the ones I've used there's usually a set of platforms at different distances from the seat and I just use the ones I find more comfortable at the time.

+1 to this. I'm 5'10 with short legs and never had a problem in any of the kayaks I've been in.

lgk

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Also in a team of 4 with 2 SOTs where does the girl sit, assuming the girl is is decent kayaker?

She should go in the back, steering is way more effective from the front. The person in front should just focus on paddling.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

In cycling or swimming you can draft off the person in front of you but from my rowing days I remember its not adviseable to row in another boats water. Is this also true for Kayaks?

Like cycling and swimming, drafting is an advantage in kayaks. The surface tension of the water is reduced behind the boat, stick close behind and get a significant benefit. This is called wash hanging or wash riding in kayaking. Interesting article here.