Waiting for a Kayak

shotgunmcos

@thisRegard - Hmmm I believe there were platforms in the SOT if I remember correctly, although they would be barely high enough to purchase your heel on? Apologies for the complete novice questions but is that standard for kayaking? How muc power do you generate from your legs in a Kayak? Or is it simply leverage?

@lgk - Cheers for that. What if she is a muh more proficient kayaker, would the her skill be employed more effectivly to steer and guide the boat from the bow end? Also would a weight difference matter much, say I out weigh her by 25kg?

nerraw1111

shotgunmcos wrote: »

@nerraw111 - I went with cages last time and it was so much less hassle. While there was a lot of biking it was all on road with no major climbing so I didn't lose much ower without the SPDs. The hill run was hard and the other runs were on road so you needed runners. Having said that I recently took the MTB onto trails and cages were a nightmare. So for offroad events I'd likely stick to SPDs but on road, multiple transitions and hard running I'd go with cages and runners

Yeah I did a MTB duathlon once and the cages issue came up. It seems to depend on the terrain? On an easy non technical trail, I don't think cages would be an issue. But if you're constantly having to put your foot down etc, cages would be a pain?

I've read platform pedals and trail shoes are a good combo.

Enduro would be the man to answer this. Ditto for kayaks. I know nothing about them!

lgk

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Apologies for the complete novice questions but is that standard for kayaking? How muc power do you generate from your legs in a Kayak? Or is it simply leverage?

Most of the power should come from your core (through rotation of the upper body) your legs should be secure to allow you do this efficiently. That's why the sit-in variety have foot rests and rests for your upper thighs, to allow you really lock in there and make best use of the larger core muscles.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

@lgk - Cheers for that. What if she is a muh more proficient kayaker, would the her skill be employed more effectivly to steer and guide the boat from the bow end? Also would a weight difference matter much, say I out weigh her by 25kg?

No problem. Yes, she should definitely sit at the back. Stern steering is more efficient and effective.

With sit-on-tops more so than regular kayaks, you might start getting trim issues facing into or across a strong wind like you'll experience in open canoes. In open canoes, it easier shift weight to counter this than it is with an sit-on-top. An experienced paddler at the stern should be able to adjust for this, perhaps changing the grip to lengthen one side of the paddle.

Enduro

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Yeah I did a MTB duathlon once and the cages issue came up. It seems to depend on the terrain? On an easy non technical trail, I don't think cages would be an issue. But if you're constantly having to put your foot down etc, cages would be a pain?

I've read platform pedals and trail shoes are a good combo.

Enduro would be the man to answer this. Ditto for kayaks. I know nothing about them!

Wearing cages whilst moutainbiking is for absolute guru mountain bikers and suicidal fools only. The only reason not to wear proper clipless perdals would be if you were in a race where transition times were significant, so it would need to be a very short race or one with a lot of on-off bike transitions. I can't think of any race with MTBing that I've done where that would apply.

If you're (general "you" there, not specificly targeted!!) constantly having to put your foot down then its time to accept that you're a crap mountain biker and that you need to dedicate training time and effort to addressing your weaknesses. I've seen very fit lads being anihilated in MTB races by far less fit lads with better MTB skills (Similar to mountain running descending, but even more pronounced).

Enduro

lgk wrote: »

Most of the power should come from your core (through rotation of the upper body) your legs should be secure to allow you do this efficiently. That's why the sit-in variety have foot rests and rests for your upper thighs, to allow you really lock in there and make best use of the larger core muscles.


With sit-on-tops more so than regular kayaks, you might start getting trim issues facing into or across a strong wind like you'll experience in open canoes. In open canoes, it easier shift weight to counter this than it is with an sit-on-top. An experienced paddler at the stern should be able to adjust for this, perhaps changing the grip to lengthen one side of the paddle.

I usually find that unless you're exposed to very high winds trim isn't anywhere near as skillsets for deciding who sits where in the SOTs, since they're such pigs of boats anyway!

I disagree with what you're saying about foot rests being for locking in the body and generating power from the upper body. That sounds more white-water style to me (Knees braced against the sides etc). For pure forward paddling the power of the stroke starts from the toes, and the legs and hips generate a huge amount of the stroke power (and rotational force). Upper body rotation finishes it off. Even in a closed boat legs should be positioned down the middle of the boat, not braced against the sides, and the legs and hips should be free to move, not locked and braced. I found this little video clip to be a good illustration of the concept...

nerraw1111

Enduro wrote: »

Wearing cages whilst moutainbiking is for absolute guru mountain bikers and suicidal fools only. The only reason not to wear proper clipless perdals would be if you were in a race where transition times were significant, so it would need to be a very short race or one with a lot of on-off bike transitions. I can't think of any race with MTBing that I've done where that would apply.

If you're (general "you" there, not specificly targeted!!) constantly having to put your foot down then its time to accept that you're a crap mountain biker and that you need to dedicate training time and effort to addressing your weaknesses. I've seen very fit lads being anihilated in MTB races by far less fit lads with better MTB skills (Similar to mountain running descending, but even more pronounced).

I'd like to go with option A, (guru mountain biker,) but I'll go with crap mountain biker.

Is Ticknock a decent location to improve MTB? Or is it limited? I find I can ride those trails fairly easy.

I read EPIC MTB forum from time to time, so feel free to be blunt!

And could you recommend a particular MTB pedal?

lgk

Yeah, good clip Enduro. You're right on the legs...I should probably declare I'm far from an expert!

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Is Ticknock a decent location to improve MTB? Or is it limited? I find I can ride those trails fairly easy.

There's a lot more to Ticknock than Metro 1 & 2. Spend some time in the woods...

Enduro

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I'd like to go with option A, (guru mountain biker,) but I'll go with crap mountain biker.

Is Ticknock a decent location to improve MTB? Or is it limited? I find I can ride those trails fairly easy.

I read EPIC MTB forum from time to time, so feel free to be blunt!

And could you recommend a particular MTB pedal?

The best way to improve is to join an MTB club, and ride with people who are better than you! That's what worked for me in a big way. Practice, and pushing out your boundaries is the main way to go. Clubs also know where all the really interesting trails are (Most are built by MTB club members after all). As lgk says, there are some fabulous ones around beyond the Metro (official) trails. Variety is good for the mind and the skillset!

If I was to post here in EPIC forum style I'd be banned fairly rapidly

My preference for MTB pedals is Shimano SPDs. They're by far the most commonly used. They seem to be pretty robust accross the boards as well, unlike eggbeaters which require a lot of TLC. The ones with a bit of a platform can be better to learn on, since you can still ride reasonably well on them without being clipped in. The more expensive ones a lighter, but apart from on my race bike I'm prefectly happy with the cheapest.

shotgunmcos

Digging up an old relevant thread rather than starting a new one.

Joey gave some technique pointers in Career Move's log.

Chiefly
1) heavier or better paddler in the back. What if the better paddler is vastly more experienced but outweighed by 20+kgs?
2) More leverage steering from the back/stern. Similar question, does that leverage diminish the heavier the person in front gets?
3) Pull the lower hand, push the upper hand. I tried this on a 10km paddle last week and it was significantly better and faster than just pulling. Bringing in your core rotation too gives a longer stroke without engaging the biceps more.

Another question. If the conditions are rough and waves are passing under the boat, left to right and right to left. Keep a steady rate or increase the cadence to "surf" the wave until it passes?

We tried surfing the waves and while you get a good couple of seconds of a boost, the kayak slumps back down the back of the wave and feels like a dead stop in comparison

At one point for a couple of kms the waves were pulling the kayak left or right no matter how much we tried to steer straight :cool:

joey100

I'll try answer some of these as well!

1) Unless the less experienced person who is heavier is a complete novice and has no idea how to paddle I'd probably put them in the back. Sit on tops are generally made to go in a straight line so not as much corrections to be made to stay in a straight line.

2)Generally it is easier to steer from the back of the boat, single or double. It's easier to make small corrections from the back of the boat, sually turning from the front involves turning the whole boat around a pivot (usually the paddle in the water) and is mostly used in white water to turn quickly into calm water. The main thing to be careful of when steering from the back is to try steer using positive strokes, forward strokes. It is easier to steer using a stroke starting behind you and pushing forward but this kills all forward momentum and like in swimming the hard bit is the getting going. So try to steer by putting the blade of the paddle in far from the side of the boat and sweeping wide to correct your stroke, done on a forward stroke.

3)Core rotation is the next phase onto the pushing and pulling and can really help. If you can keep the boat fairly straight and use positive strokes to maintain your position it is the best way to conserve energy. Negative backward strokes will make it hard becuase you will be constanty stopping and starting. Get a decent cadence and work on getting as most power from the paddle as you can.

I'm not 100% sure when you are talking about the waves,

If they are coming side on ----> or <

---

it' better to keep going as best you can. If it's coming from behind you I wouldn't worry too much about trying to surf it, it will be a lake wave, usually caused by the wind and only short and small. As well as that sit on tops aren't usually made for surfing, you want a plain flat wide hull for surfing, you will catch it for a bit but again not worth the effort. To catch a wave you need to be going the same speed as it so will need to speed up to catch it. Short small wave like that you will only be on for a few seconds and wouldn't really be worth all the extra effort, you will catch a few anyway without having to work extra hard for it. Completely different in the sea, worth the extra effort to catch it!!

If you find the boat is constantly turning two most common reasons are, 1) people are always stronger on one side and usually will be pulling hard on this side and cause the boat to turn. 2) People cut the stroke short, usally take it out about 30cms before it really ends, this is the best part of the stroke for steering and when you cut it out it's normally only on one side and again causes an imbalance. Make sure the stroke goes right back to the hips, even a little bit further. Will help hold your line.

Best way to steer when your on a wave from the back of the boat, stern rudder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzO3ef7x45E

rebelgourmet

Very informative posts guys. Here's my 2 cents from a fairly experienced paddler (Note: I train in a 19ft surfski with a wing paddle, but I have single and double sit tops similar to those used in multi-sport races).

The question of best position in a double sit top
- Put the most experience paddler in the back irrespective of weight.
- As the experienced AR guys(enduro/Peterx and others) here have already said, sit tops are prone to 'sit up' at the front and can get 'pushed' in windy conditions. However I contend that on such short courses the better trade off is to have an experienced paddler making the correction strokes and steering from the back seat, as it is more efficient.
- It is best to tell the paddler in front to concentrate exclusively on forward stroke, not steering. (Assuming the experienced paddler can implement sweep/steering strokes)
- Note, you will find it easier to paddle straight when facing a direct head wind. A cross wind from the rear will require annoying corrections.

Some advice on an efficient stroke
- So long as you can brace your legs or feet effectively (not always possible on the sit tops used in multi sport races), then try to focus on a rotation/drive from the feet through the hips and stomach/core, this is most efficient since it recruits the biggest muscle groups.
- Contrary to what others here have said, it is NOT efficient to pull the paddle past your hips. Exit the paddle level or before your hips in the stroke.
- Reach forward and plant the paddle to initiate the stroke, then initiate the hip drive and body rotation - the upper body power to move the boat past the paddle should come primarily from the 'push/punch' forward from the other hand(blade of out the water) - the pull hand (blade in water) should be relatively neutral. Why? Pushing recruits bigger muscle groups, pulling will fatigue the biceps fairly quickly.
- Keep the full face of the blade immersed in water throughout the stroke (more efficient).
- Focus on tempo/cadence in the strokes rather than 'power'.
- Keep the paddle at shoulder level (not higher) when transitioning from one side to the other - the punch/push of the stroke should be at shoulder level.

Sorry for sounding technical, but executing even some of these might make it easier on the day, ideally try and get in a boat before the race too.

Notes on 'drafting' or other efficiency measures
- In general, for such short distances, on lakes or rivers, for inexperienced paddlers, don't even worry/bother about it as the benefits will be negligible.
- You won't be able to 'surf' waves, since if those conditions did prevail it would be likely that the kayak leg would get cancelled for safety reasons.
- Wake riding or riding the 'A' position(slightly in front of another boats bough wave) requires skill and precision and for inexperienced paddlers the proximity to other boats and paddles may be unsettling, so don't bother.
- In very high head wind, there is some merit in 'drafting' directly behind another boat to save paddling energy and benefit from marginal resistance improvements from their 'broken water'.

Again, sorry to be so wordy, but re-iterate what Enduro (I think???) said - learn to enjoy it and embrace the challenge - it'll seem easier.

joey100

Contrary to what others here have said, it is NOT efficient to pull the paddle past your hips

I wasn't saying it to make the stroke more efficient. I was saying it from a steering point of view. Biggest difficulty for new paddlers is keeping the boat in a straight line, this helps keep it straight, provides a bit more control on direction. No it's not more efficient than a properly executed forward stroke by a competent kayaker, but it is more efficient than spending every second stroke trying to correct your direction.

sconhome

joey100 wrote: »

I was saying it from a steering point of view.

This is a key point I took from a session with Mike Jones last year. Once you go past your hips you are steering, not driving the boat.

I normally sit in the rear and feel I've got the hang of the little adjustments to the steering. You are using a range of infinitely variable strokes and rhythms to tweak the alignment of the boat.

Often times I will be out of tempo with the front paddler for a stroke or two as a fill in stroke is needed on a swell or a longer deeper stroke needed to straighten the boat after a pull from a swell, or you pull more on one side as you paddle across current.

I love the paddle sections now!

rebelgourmet

AKW wrote: »

This is a key point I took from a session with Mike Jones last year. Once you go past your hips you are steering, not driving the boat.

I normally sit in the rear and feel I've got the hang of the little adjustments to the steering. You are using a range of infinitely variable strokes and rhythms to tweak the alignment of the boat.

Often times I will be out of tempo with the front paddler for a stroke or two as a fill in stroke is needed on a swell or a longer deeper stroke needed to straighten the boat after a pull from a swell, or you pull more on one side as you paddle across current.

I love the paddle sections now!

Agree with last 2 posts RE steering, where inevitably a sweep stroke passes the hip as a steering action. Inevitably this also more pronounced in types of kayaks used in these races (doubles with no rudder/skeg). Cheers lads.