Another shooting spree in the US

Sunnyisland

number of people have been killed and several injured in a shooting at a university in California, police say.
US TV footage showed wounded people emerging from buildings at Oikos University in the city of Oakland.
Police and armed response teams have surrounded the buildings, with reports suggesting the gunman has not yet been captured or contained.
Oikos University is a private religious institution offering courses in theology, music and nursing.
A nearby hospital has confirmed to US media that it is treating four victims in the wake of the shooting.
Johnna Watson, of Oakland Police, said: "We do have fatalities, I cannot confirm the number of fatalities we have at this time. We additionally have victims who have suffered from gunshot wounds."
The Oakland Fire Department says it was first notified of the shooting at about 10:50 local time (18:50 GMT).
A police officer at the scene told reporters the gunman and has not been identified.

http://www.google.ie/url?url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17590859&rct=j&sa=X&ei=-Px5T7vgCpKJhQfd88mpDQ&ved=0CDMQgBAoADAA&q=bbc+news&usg=AFQjCNGiCXt1_MPY6p8z4pLFGUv4y45gog

Another shooting spree in the US, Long history of this type of incident happening there,As its still breaking news its to early to say what this one is about.

Ghandee

The Americans really should review their crazy , 'too liberal' gun laws.

El_Dangeroso

Ghandee wrote: »

The Americans really should review their crazy , 'too liberal' gun laws.

I dunno, don't the Canadians have more guns per person yet this type of event is rarely heard of there?

CiaranMT

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I dunno, don't the Canadians have more guns per person yet this type of event is rarely heard of there?

Would be needing a source on this..

GoldFour4

Ghandee wrote: »

The Americans really should review their crazy , 'too liberal' gun laws.

Its not about access to guns. Its more about the way American society has raised people to believe that its okay to take out your anger on a bunch of innocent people.

FinnLizzy

Horrible stuff.

I can only expect the rest of the month's US media is going to throw **** back and forth over whether too much guns, not enough guns, too much God or not enough God caused this too happen.

PseudoFamous

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I dunno, don't the Canadians have more guns per person yet this type of event is rarely heard of there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

I understand wikipedia often isn't entirely correct, but in looking at that, it's fair to say that Americans have a lot more guns than Canadians both per person and total.

AngryBollix

Ghandee wrote: »

The Americans really should review their crazy , 'too liberal' gun laws.

The right to bear arms is a privilege afforded by their constitution though

forfuxsake

"..from my cold, dead hands"
Fair enough Mr H.

Ghandee

malachyscott wrote: »

Its not about access to guns. Its more about the way American society has raised people to believe that its okay to take out your anger on a bunch of innocent people.

Yeah, usually with guns though.

ballsymchugh

only one way to sort it out.

bullet control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II

AngryBollix

Like everything else in life, its not the equipment its the person using it thats at fault

GoldFour4

Ghandee wrote: »

Yeah, usually with guns though.

But its legal for citizens to own guns in most countries, yet we only hear about this sort of thing happening in America. I know it happens in Finland a lot aswell but no nearly as often. I've never heard of something like this happening in Canada (I'm sure there have been some cases) and Canadians love guns just as much as their neighbours.

El_Dangeroso

PseudoFamous wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

I understand wikipedia often isn't entirely correct, but in looking at that, it's fair to say that Americans have a lot more guns than Canadians both per person and total.

Michael Moore lied to me. :eek:

Jesus look at the US there in fine company with.. Serbia?

AngryBollix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjZhhEKQFaU

Ghandee

malachyscott wrote: »

But its legal for citizens to own guns in most countries, yet we only hear about this sort of thing happening in America. I know it happens in Finland a lot aswell but no nearly as often. I've never heard of something like this happening in Canada (I'm sure there have been some cases) and Canadians love guns just as much as their neighbours.

I agree with most of your sentiments, but it could be something to do with the numbers of citizens involved.

More Americans, means more likely it happens in that country.

Yakult

Surprised it doesn't happen more in the USA. That place has some amount of loonies.

Helix

Ghandee wrote: »

I agree with most of your sentiments, but it could be something to do with the numbers of citizens involved.

More Americans, means more likely it happens in that country.

it's more to do with the fact that their country is essentially a continent

it's a big place, with a lot of people living there

3 school shootings a year happen in america and its "jesus those yanks, it's always happening there", but 3 happen in different countries across europe and it doesnt look anywhere near as bad or uniform

yermandan

RIP

Its a problem too far gone to ever have a successful solution. Freedom to bear arms me bollix

44leto

As passed by the Congress:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.[

Its rather strange wording in the second amendment. You have the right to form a well regulated militia, therefore you have the right to bear arms. But the US government are not that fond of militias and have shoot-out with them all the time. So technically is an armed drug gang a militia. Therefore are their firearms legal.

hairyprincess

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/28/us-world-firearms-idUSL2834893820070828

(Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said. U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.
About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.
"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.
India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.
Germany, France, Pakistan, Mexico, Brazil and Russia were next in the ranking of country's overall civilian gun arsenals.
On a per-capita basis, Yemen had the second most heavily armed citizenry behind the United States, with 61 guns per 100 people, followed by Finland with 56, Switzerland with 46, Iraq with 39 and Serbia with 38.
France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany were next, each with about 30 guns per 100 people, while many poorer countries often associated with violence ranked much lower. Nigeria, for instance, had just one gun per 100 people.
"Firearms are very unevenly distributed around the world. The image we have of certain regions such as Africa or Latin America being awash with weapons -- these images are certainly misleading," Small Arms Survey director Keith Krause said.
"Weapons ownership may be correlated with rising levels of wealth, and that means we need to think about future demand in parts of the world where economic growth is giving people larger disposable income," he told a Geneva news conference.
The report, which relied on government data, surveys and media reports to estimate the size of world arsenals, estimated there were 650 million civilian firearms worldwide, and 225 million held by law enforcement and military forces.
Five years ago, the Small Arms Survey had estimated there were a total of just 640 million firearms globally.
"Civilian holdings of weapons worldwide are much larger than we previously believed," Krause said, attributing the increase largely to better research and more data on weapon distribution networks.
Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities.

This article is five years old, but these figures are startling. Why do the US citizens feel such a need to arm themselves?


RIP to those who lost their lives.

JONJO THE MISER

Suspect is now in custody, believed to be a korean male.
However police and swat teams are still clearing and searching the area which is in a heavy populated part of Oakland.

Manic Moran

Ghandee wrote: »

The Americans really should review their crazy , 'too liberal' gun laws.

It's Oakland, California, a few miles from where I work.

The place is hardly known for its liberal gun laws, but it's well known for its violence.

The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens [...] Why do the US citizens feel such a need to arm themselves?

Because we like shooting and there are a lot of shooting sports.

Take a double-barrel for clay pigeon shooting.
A heavy-barrel bolt action for long range shooting.
A .308 or such for deer hunting
A 5.56mm for varminting.
A pistol for self defence/Carry
Another pistol for IPSC competition.

And if you're actually an enthusiast, like myself, you might have several of one type. I've 2x 5.56mm rifles, for example. No particular need for it, but they're both works of the rifle-maker's art. Like my in-law's car collection, they spend most time gathering dust, but they're good to take out and drive on rare occasions.

NTM

smash

I blame Zelda! because it's just too easy to blame call of duty.

Dyr

I wonder if this college had a "no guns on campus" rule.

chickendinner

Helix wrote: »

it's more to do with the fact that their country is essentially a continent

it's a big place, with a lot of people living there

3 school shootings a year happen in america and its "jesus those yanks, it's always happening there", but 3 happen in different countries across europe and it doesnt look anywhere near as bad or uniform

Last I heard there was 300 million people living in USA and approx 800million in Europe (read last year have no link to sources)
depending on which countries you include.

By your reasoning there should be 10 schools shot up in Europe each year.
I dont think there is.
To suggest they dont have a problem, is well, part of the problem.

flanders1979

The US government makes its citizens paranoid about "commies", muslims, african americans and loads of other things. They feel the need to own a weapon. Loads of money in selling weapons.

Manic Moran

Bambi wrote: »

I wonder if this college had a "no guns on campus" rule.

It's Alameda County. It has a defacto 'no guns anywhere' rule, with approximately 200 carry permits issued in a county of 1.5million. State law dictates it has to honour permits issued by other counties, but since almost all the neighbouring counties have similar rates of issuance, it's a bit of a moot concern. I have plenty of combat experience, a high-end security clearance, and am an Army officer, and have thus far been denied a carry permit, if it gives you an idea. The violent crime rate in Alameda County is some 60% higher than the State average.

You have the right to form a well regulated militia, therefore you have the right to bear arms. But the US government are not that fond of militias and have shoot-out with them all the time. So technically is an armed drug gang a militia. Therefore are their firearms legal.

A couple of mistakes here.

Firstly, US federal law defines most of the adult population of the country as being members of the militia. Then the States have their own militia laws as well. Private militias are not objected to, as long as they don't do anything illegal. Firearms owned by members of a drug gang may or may not be illegal, depending on how they're obtained, carried, and who they are carried by.
Going on from that, the US Supreme Court also ruled that the militia clause, prefactory, is simply an enhancement of the already pre-existing right to arms which existed when the country was founded. The core right of self defence is not reliant upon membership of a militia, thus your right to have a gun is similarly not reliant upon membership of a militia.

NTM

sea_monkey

it would be next to impossible to invade america
every street you went into would have people shooting at you

Luap

Just ban all shooting video games, that should do it.

Dyr

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's Alameda County. It has a defacto 'no guns anywhere' rule, with approximately 200 carry permits issued in a county of 1.5million. State law dictates it has to honour permits issued by other counties, but since almost all the neighbouring counties have similar rates of issuance, it's a bit of a moot concern. I have plenty of combat experience, a high-end security clearance, and am an Army officer, and have thus far been denied a carry permit, if it gives you an idea. The violent crime rate in Alameda County is some 60% higher than the State average.
NTM

Well, its really working out for them at the moment

SamHarris

flanders1979 wrote: »

The US government makes its citizens paranoid about "commies", muslims, african americans and loads of other things. They feel the need to own a weapon. Loads of money in selling weapons.

Not according to actual polling on relative fears in European countries compared to the US, at least far less of them fear Muslims or "the other" compared to Western European countries. Pew does alot of polling on stuff like this.

People really should stop feeling free to have their own completly uninformed opinion about things that actually have empirical data on them.

That your idea of what goes on in another country is so cartoonish says alot more about your paranoia than it does about some fictional Americans.

Why do I have a feeling if an American posted here saying "Those Iranians are so cowed because their government makes them fear Christians and capitalism and the white man that they go crazy and cant be trusted with weapons!" you would consider it an excellent example of your American stereotype? A little more self awarness would not go astray.

On the actual topic most people could think of 3 shootings that happened in Europe in the last year or so quicker than they can the US. The crime rate in the UK is (or can be considered to have) up to FIVE TIMES higher with regards to violent crime. Those who consider the US a particularly violent and dangerous place arent living in the same reality as the rest of us.

Stop deriving your crimerates from CSI episodes, stop getting your "social commentary" from indymedia and The Guardian's opinion page and look up some real evidence before forming an opinion.

RichieC

They lose their minds in the US over a boob slip and accept extreme violence easily.

It's not really surprising that they seem to be desensitised to it.

Quite backwards in that respect. I guess if you want to sell a new war every couple of years to the peons you have to program them like that. Clearly it is having a side effects on the population.

SamHarris

RichieC wrote: »

They lose their minds in the US over a boob slip and accept extreme violence easily.

It's not really surprising that they seem to be desensitised to it.

Quite backwards in that respect. I guess if you want to sell a new war every couple of years to the peons you have to program them like that. Clearly it is having a side effects on the population.

Read above.

For the rest the CT forum... Even AH is better than that :rolleyes:

RichieC

I can't hear you over the ignore function, Mossad.

flanders1979

SamHarris wrote: »

Not according to actual polling on relative fears in European countries compared to the US, at least far less of them fear Muslims or "the other" compared to Western European countries. Pew does alot of polling on stuff like this.

People really should stop feeling free to have their own completly uninformed opinion about things that actually have empirical data on them.

That your idea of what goes on in another country is so cartoonish says alot more about your paranoia than it does about some fictional Americans.

Why do I have a feeling if an American posted here saying "Those Iranians are so cowed because their government makes them fear Christians and capitalism and the white man that they go crazy and cant be trusted with weapons!" you would consider it an excellent example of your American stereotype? A little more self awarness would not go astray.

On the actual topic most people could think of 3 shootings that happened in Europe in the last year or so quicker than they can the US. The crime rate in the UK is (or can be considered to have) up to FIVE TIMES higher with regards to violent crime. Those who consider the US a particularly violent and dangerous place arent living in the same reality as the rest of us.

Stop deriving your crimerates from CSI episodes, stop getting your "social commentary" from indymedia and The Guardian's opinion page and look up some real evidence before forming an opinion.

Did I touch a nerve

RichieC

flanders1979 wrote: »

Did I touch a nerve

He gets butthurt if you talk ill of the great lord America and queen Israel.

SamHarris

flanders1979 wrote: »

Did I touch a nerve

I just like correcting people who seem too proud of their ignorance.

Especially when they use a thread about some people getting shot to try and 'score' and then end up kicking themselves in the ass when it comes to actual facts... Well, if your happy being fantastically ill informed, knock yourself out. Just dont be surprised if someone calls you out.

SamHarris

RichieC wrote: »

He gets butthurt if you talk ill of the great lord America and queen Israel.

Your right, ignorance annoys the hell out of me, but in the end I couldnt care less if someone wants to go through their lives making up their own 'facts'.

Obviously your inferiority complex towards the States prevents you from using actual evidence when making replies, but what can you do?

Just the whinging from 16 year old who read The Guardian once a week and consider themselves "on top" of world politics, culture and news need to be slapped down every now and again.

Manic Moran

flanders1979 wrote: »

Did I touch a nerve

Is he wrong?

darced

This post has been deleted.

flanders1979

SamHarris wrote: »

Your right, ignorance annoys the hell out of me, but in the end I couldnt care less if someone wants to go through their lives making up their own 'facts'.

Obviously your inferiority complex towards the States prevents you from using actual evidence when making replies, but what can you do?

Just the whinging from 16 year old who read The Guardian once a week and consider themselves "on top" of world politics, culture and news need to be slapped down every now and again.

hilarious

flanders1979

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is he wrong?

I'm afraid so, and a bit of a hypocrite also.

SunnyDub1

Not long back from visiting California for the first time - was there for 3 weeks.

As much as I love American's some of them are the type to shoot you if you look at the side ways

There is an Awful lot of gangs etc that are not behind the door about shooting someone just to get one up on another gang.

Quite sad though as a lot of the crime goes on where people just want to live normal safe life's.

Compton - Lets not go there, even reading about it sends chills

prinz

malachyscott wrote: »

I've never heard of something like this happening in Canada (I'm sure there have been some cases) and Canadians love guns just as much as their neighbours.

There have been. There was a few high-profile cases in Canada before it really became the thing to do in the US.. Denis Lortie back in the early 80's stormed the Quebec parliament building and shot dead a number of people, Marc Lepine and the Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal for example back in the 1980's, shot up a few lecture halls at university killed 10+, there was another lad who gunned down a few of his colleagues at another university in the early 90's.

I think the difference is each of these incidences kick-started a serious debate about gun controls and laws in Canada, and about education and societal approach to weaponry. In the US it doesn't ever really seem to get off the ground in a similar way.

Manic Moran

flanders1979 wrote: »

I'm afraid so, and a bit of a hypocrite also.

That should be easily sorted out then.

Mr Harris, would you care to link to the statistics you are using, and Mr Flanders, would you care to link to counter them, please?

NTM

Sunnyisland

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Not long back from visiting California for the first time - was there for 3 weeks.

As much as I love American's some of them are the type to shoot you if you look at the side ways

There is an Awful lot of gangs etc that are not behind the door about shooting someone just to get one up on another gang.

Quite sad though as a lot of the crime goes on where people just want to live normal safe life's.

Compton - Lets not go there, even reading about it sends chills

This could be said about certain parts of Belfast,Dublin,Limerick & Cork and maybe even elsewhere in Ireland.

Jagdtiger

sea_monkey wrote: »

it would be next to impossible to invade america
every street you went into would have people shooting at you

There would just be greater "Collateral damage"

SamHarris

flanders1979 wrote: »

I'm afraid so, and a bit of a hypocrite also.

:rolleyes: bit of maths for you, but Im sure given time you will figure them out.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
Here is a hint before you embarrass yourself misreading this one - it counts on people reporting the crime and is not crime RATE but the number of crimes...

You werent even tempted to google it before you tried to stick to the guns you obviously knew you made up? Christ :rolleyes: How much TV do you watch, and you do know alot of it is not based on real life, right?

Your wrong and now your boring me. Now prove the figures wrong or just slink off quietly as so often happens when people are faced with their own ignorance ...

SunnyDub1

realies wrote: »

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Not long back from visiting California for the first time - was there for 3 weeks.

As much as I love American's some of them are the type to shoot you if you look at the side ways

There is an Awful lot of gangs etc that are not behind the door about shooting someone just to get one up on another gang.

Quite sad though as a lot of the crime goes on where people just want to live normal safe life's.

Compton - Lets not go there, even reading about it sends chills

This could be said about certain parts of Belfast,Dublin,Limerick & Cork and maybe even elsewhere in Ireland.

Have you been to the states before ?
Completely different from Ireland - a lot more crime, gangs , drugs , shootings

Robdude

The problem isn't guns. The problem is the United States letting the world's riff-raff into their country.

'One Goh' is less American than I am Irish.