Leap Overcharging - refunds

devnull

Hidden away on the Leap Card page rather than the news section, based on the old mantra of burying bad news rather than posting it where everyone can see it.

Dublin Bus would like to inform customers it has been brought to our attention that, due to a software fault, some customers using Leap Card may have been inadvertently overcharged.

The software fault affected the driver’s ticket machines which resulted in the regular cash fare, rather than the discounted Leap Card fare, occasionally being deducted from the Leap Card. Once this issue was recognised, corrective software was promptly installed on all buses in the Dublin Bus fleet. This installation is complete and the issue has been fully rectified.

We would advise customers to check their transaction history on www.leapcard.ie to determine whether they have been affected by this issue. Dublin Bus will provide a refund to anyone who has been affected at Dublin Bus Head Office, 59 Upper O’Connell Street, Dublin 1.

Dublin Bus would like to apologise to customers for the inconvenience caused.

Any sum which is left unclaimed will be allocated as additional funding to the Dublin Bus Community Support Programme (CSP) which has benefited 1,100 charities and voluntary groups in the Dublin area.

bk

Sigh, given that with a simple database query they could easily identify these overcharges (the leap card fares and the cash fares don't match, so very easy to spot), then why can't they just automatically apply the refund the next time you top-up?

Or at very least email people with registered leap cards.

ballooba

This is completely unacceptable. If they can identify the overcharging as admitted, then why can't they credit the account?

Dravokivich

ballooba wrote: »

This is completely unacceptable. If they can identify the overcharging as admitted, then why can't they credit the account?

Nope, because your balance is on your card, not your account. Your account merely lets you view the details of the card online.

goingnowhere

Dravokivich wrote: »

Nope, because your balance is on your card, not your account. Your account merely lets you view the details of the card online.

Irish Rail can and do issue refunds directly to the card

Dublin Bus for numerous reasons both technical and practical cannot issue refunds directly to the card

Dravokivich

goingnowhere wrote: »

Irish Rail can and do issue refunds directly to the card

In a way yes/ no. Onto the card yes, but not directly. Having been through it, it gets sent out as a topup, so has to go through that process.

The difference I was pointing out above, was just between card / account. No balance is stored on the account.

goingnowhere wrote: »

Dublin Bus for numerous reasons both technical and practical cannot issue refunds directly to the card

Dublin Bus can't because they are not setup to provide topups.

foggy_lad

The fact that it was hidden away on the Leap page says that Dublin Bus don't want to be bothered dealing with refunds, (why else would they INSIST on passengers travelling all the way into O'Connell street for refunds that should easily be put onto the card balance?) It also shows that Leapcard are complicit in the whole cant be bothered attitude of Dublin Bus,

If Leap were interested there would be political pressure on Dublin Bus to look after their passengers and stop making them jump through hoops of fire to get the most basic of refunds!

n97 mini

They could add the refunds to your next top up. So next time you "collect" the top up, you get it, plus whatever refunds you're due.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

They could add the refunds to your next top up. So next time you "collect" the top up, you get it, plus whatever refunds you're due.

That won't work either. Only 1 topup will be collected at a time. So you'll have to touch on on multiple occasions to pickup multiple topups that are cue'd.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

That won't work either. Only 1 topup will be collected at a time. So you'll have to touch on on multiple occasions to pickup multiple topups that are cue'd.

The topup could be for €20.40 instead of €20.

Afterall it's an IT system, and is only as good as the people who are controlling it.

foggy_lad

Dravokivich wrote: »

That won't work either. Only 1 topup will be collected at a time. So you'll have to touch on on multiple occasions to pickup multiple topups that are cue'd.

There is nothing stopping the many many people employed in Dublin Bus HQ from adding up all the many overcharges owed to each person and just topping you up once for all the refunds and adding a refund note onto your leap account page detailing how the total was arrived at.

devnull

Dublin Bus unfortunately in recent years have always buried bad news or anything that will show them in a negative light, and if they cannot do this they will just spin it rather than be straight to the point.

During network direct that was particularly noticeable, when someone told me in no uncertain terms that I should not say things like some routes have been cancelled. They said that in fact no routes had been cancelled, some have been merged together, but still continue to operate.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

The topup could be for €20.40 instead of €20.

Afterall it's an IT system, and is only as good as the people who are controlling it.

Ah yeah... sure... overall it's an IT system... anything pending on a jobslist can be modified willy nilly when you can't tell if it's been picked up yet... :rolleyes:

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is nothing stopping the many many people employed in Dublin Bus HQ from adding up all the many overcharges owed to each person and just topping you up once for all the refunds and adding a refund note onto your leap account page detailing how the total was arrived at.

Erm... how are they going to topup the card?

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

Ah yeah... sure... overall it's an IT system... anything pending on a jobslist can be modified willy nilly when you can't tell if it's been picked up yet... :rolleyes:

That sort of attitude is amateur, and makes you sound like a nay-sayer.

It can't be done because there is no ability or will to do it. It's an IT system, not brain surgery.

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

That sort of attitude is amateur, and makes you sound like a nay-sayer.

It can't be done because there is no ability or will to do it. It's an IT system, not brain surgery.

It doesn't make sense to me to modify something when you can't see it in realtime and working on a delay of a day.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

It doesn't make sense to me to modify something when you can't see it in realtime and working on a delay of a day.

Any proper developer has a live, test and a dev systems. Develop on dev, test on test and roll out to live. If you want to be uber cautious you stage the rollout, limiting it to just a few cards, and increase the scope when you see it's all working. We stage rolled out software to 30 million users, which updated the billing aspect. It's not hard once it's done right.

dowlingm

"Any money left over from this obscure notification will be given to a charity accompanied by a huge press release so people will think DB are great guys"

:rolleyes:

Dravokivich

n97 mini wrote: »

Any proper developer has a live, test and a dev systems. Develop on dev, test on test and roll out to live. If you want to be uber cautious you stage the rollout, limiting it to just a few cards, and increase the scope when you see it's all working. We stage rolled out software to 30 million users, which updated the billing aspect. It's not hard once it's done right.

Ehm... you do realise my point is around transactions not being visible until a day after they are done right?

Considering your recommendation was to edit a pending topup that "could" of been picked up, but no one, not even the system would have any way of telling until the following day.

ballooba

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is nothing stopping the many many people employed in Dublin Bus HQ from adding up all the many overcharges owed to each person and just topping you up once for all the refunds and adding a refund note onto your leap account page detailing how the total was arrived at.

The many many people who ignored me when I went in there at 9:05am yesterday. Four desks, one guy taking a phone call and three others studiously ignoring the waiting customer. I eventually had to ask one of them who was reading a paper, if she was working. She replied in the affirmative and reluctantly assisted me with my query.

markpb

Dravokivich wrote: »

That won't work either. Only 1 topup will be collected at a time. So you'll have to touch on on multiple occasions to pickup multiple topups that are cue'd.

I don't think that's true. What makes you say that?

Dravokivich

markpb wrote: »

I don't think that's true. What makes you say that?

Had to do it myself.

The card will only collect 1 topup at a time.

n97 mini

Dravokivich wrote: »

Ehm... you do realise my point is around transactions not being visible until a day after they are done right?

I do. If they show up in test they should show up in live. Stage roll it out if you're cautious.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Considering your recommendation was to edit a pending topup that "could" of been picked up, but no one, not even the system would have any way of telling until the following day.

So what. If they refund is queued to be added to the next top up total on a particular card that's all that really matters. When it's collected is largely immaterial.

Stop creating problems that don't exist.

goingnowhere

Dravokivich wrote: »

That won't work either. Only 1 topup will be collected at a time. So you'll have to touch on on multiple occasions to pickup multiple topups that are cue'd.

Thats bull, you can collect multiple items in a single card presentation

LEAP can handle multiple top ups and products being loaded in a single card presentation session

Carawaystick

Looks like Dublin Bus have admitted to engaging in a misleading commercial practise in contravention of section 43 (3) (c) of the Consumer Protection Act 2007

And according to section 47 of the same act, are guilty of a criminal offence.

Victor

bk wrote: »

Sigh, given that with a simple database query they could easily identify these overcharges (the leap card fares and the cash fares don't match, so very easy to spot)

Not absolutely. While the overlap is a minority sport, transactions for €1.95 could be either genuine transactions at the Leap rate (Adult - Stages 8 to 13) or erroneous transactions at the cash rate (Child - Outer Suburban 2).

But let me sleep on that

Or at very least email people with registered leap cards.

There is hope for a mailing / newsletter.

bk wrote: »

then why can't they just automatically apply the refund the next time you top-up?

Because every time they would have to do the refund, they would have to refund by the minimum amount - €5. And they don't want to do that.

However, do insist on being reimbursed for the effort of retrieving your money - I got a complimentary Travel 90 ticket for my 40c.

markpb

Victor wrote: »

Because every time they would have to do the refund, they would have to refund by the minimum amount - €5. And they don't want to do that.

What do you mean?

Victor

Dublin Bus can't do a top-up for 30c. The minimum top-up is €5. Anytime there has been a problem with Irish Rail, they have had to give the customer €5 credit.

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

Dublin Bus can't do a top-up for 30c. The minimum top-up is €5. Anytime there has been a problem with Irish Rail, they have had to give the customer €5 credit.

Then let them pay for their many cock-ups by refunding each instance of overcharging by €5, they would soon learn their drivers and technicians how to use and program the ticket machines correctly!

AlekSmart

Carawaystick wrote: »

Looks like Dublin Bus have admitted to engaging in a misleading commercial practise in contravention of section 43 (3) (c) of the Consumer Protection Act 2007

And according to section 47 of the same act, are guilty of a criminal offence.

The monsterous bull African Elephant standing over this particular plie of droppings is the fact that very shortly,LeapCard Inc will be seeking access to holders Bank Accounts.....:eek:

The introduction of Auto-Top-Up,whilst a desireable element of all contactless Travel systems,is dependant upon users having a high degree of confidence in the body to whom they are surrendering their account details for a Direct Debit mandate.

Reading this type of stuff,will make the doubting even more doubtfull of taking the next-step in the automation process.

The potential for this to be a PR disaster is very significant indeed....:o

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

The monsterous bull African Elephant standing over this particular plie of droppings is the fact that very shortly,LeapCard Inc will be seeking access to holders Bank Accounts.....:eek:

Your employer might get its act together then.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

The monsterous bull African Elephant standing over this particular plie of droppings is the fact that very shortly,LeapCard Inc will be seeking access to holders Bank Accounts.....:eek:

Victor wrote: »

Your employer might get its act together then.

Victor has a point. With the exception of not-yet delivered functionality, the biggest problem with Leap so far has been Dublin Bus. Which is sad because they're the one operator who could have gained the most from Leap. No more worrying about carrying exact cash, no more change receipts, no more wondering if you've paid the right fare or if the driver has the ticket machine set properly. Leap could have solved all those problems.

goingnowhere

markpb wrote: »

Victor has a point. With the exception of not-yet delivered functionality, the biggest problem with Leap so far has been Dublin Bus. Which is sad because they're the one operator who could have gained the most from Leap. No more worrying about carrying exact cash, no more change receipts, no more wondering if you've paid the right fare or if the driver has the ticket machine set properly. Leap could have solved all those problems.

Leap can solve all those problems IF Dublin Bus wants to cooperate

Extra validator on the left side and at centre doors where available, introduce a tag-on/off protocol and 90% of the current issues go away. Works in the Netherlands without fuss

WillieFlynn

goingnowhere wrote: »

Extra validator on the left side and at centre doors where available, introduce a tag-on/off protocol and 90% of the current issues go away. Works in the Netherlands without fuss

Dublin bus staff stopped / refused to use the centre doors about 20 years ago, I vaguely remember the reasons were the driver could get in trouble if there were too many fare dodgers and safety concerns over being able to clearly see passengers getting off.

AlekSmart

WillieFlynn wrote: »

Dublin bus staff stopped / refused to use the centre doors about 20 years ago, I vaguely remember the reasons were the driver could get in trouble if there were too many fare dodgers and safety concerns over being able to clearly see passengers getting off.

No need to endure any vagueness WillieFlynn.

The actual state-of-play is as adjudged by The Labour Court in this judgement:

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/afedb93f6ed4a54180256a01005bb357/80256a770034a2ab8025627500451c43?OpenDocument

Subject to the above the Court considers that the centre doors
should normally be operated. Recognising the responsibility of
the Driver for his vehicle and passengers, whilst he should
normally operate the centre doors, he should carry out this
operation with prudence. Accordingly the Court considers that an
instruction to compulsorily operate the centre doors at all times
would be inappropriate.

WillieFlynn

AlekSmart wrote: »

No need to endure any vagueness WillieFlynn.

The actual state-of-play is as adjudged by The Labour Court in this judgement:

Alek thanks for the link.

otterj

goingnowhere wrote: »

Irish Rail can and do issue refunds directly to the card

Dublin Bus for numerous reasons both technical and practical cannot issue refunds directly to the card

I got a refund on my leap card on Dublin Bus once but it seems to only work on a few buses I was charged €2.45 instead of €1.90 yesterday when i pointed out to the driver that i was overcharged he said he couldnt issue a refund on the bus and wasnt too sure how I could get a refund ? Does anyone know the process involverd in getting a refund and how do I prove was over charged?

Dravokivich

You'll need to go to DB HQ, out on O'Connell Street.

Hand held readers can only view the last 5 transaction items from the card, so if possible, might be an idea to print out a list of transactions and show'em which one's were wrong.

Dravokivich

No I won't.

foggy_lad

otterj wrote: »

I got a refund on my leap card on Dublin Bus once but it seems to only work on a few buses I was charged €2.45 instead of €1.90 yesterday when i pointed out to the driver that i was overcharged he said he couldnt issue a refund on the bus and wasnt too sure how I could get a refund ? Does anyone know the process involverd in getting a refund and how do I prove was over charged?

You will have to go to the dublin bus headquarters. They should refund you and you are also entitled to have your journey in to them and back home refunded. They usually give a couple of travel 90 tickets to cover this.

Tickityboo

If it happens again on the bus and the driver does not know how to cancel the transaction.
Put your card back on the wayfarer tell him to press the cancel button (c) an option will come up to annul previous transaction.
Tell him to press that a ticket will come out with cancelled fare and refunded balance.
You can then get appropiate fare.
Simples!!

AlekSmart

otterj wrote: »

I got a refund on my leap card on Dublin Bus once but it seems to only work on a few buses I was charged €2.45 instead of €1.90 yesterday when i pointed out to the driver that i was overcharged he said he couldnt issue a refund on the bus and wasnt too sure how I could get a refund ? Does anyone know the process involverd in getting a refund and how do I prove was over charged?

This is simply a case of a Driver either unwilling or unable to operate the Ticket machine,or unfamiliar with a very basic part of his job.

No excuse for it whatever.

As Ticketyboo points out,the annuling of the incorrect Leap Transaction automatically credits the amount back to the Card and gives the customer a hardcopy ticket to that effect.

The customer then re-presents the Leapcard and the corrrect amount is deducted.

This scenario does however underline the lack of Leapcard awareness out there,amongst both Staff and Customers,with nobody quite sure of what ITS,as we have it,can actually do.