New Triton As2000X Power Shower Triping Breaker

02-03-2014 12:48am

I am going to reopen this thread to facilitate this important discussion.
Trading of insults will result in the deletion of posts and/or a ban.

WikiHow wrote: »

Definitively a dedicated RCBO should be installed and tests carried out and have assurance that the installation is safe, having a shower occasionally tripping for two years is unacceptable and dangerous.

My own view is that it is unacceptable to have a circuit that has been tripping for over two years.

We have all seen videos such as this:

However a quick look at the ETCI statistics shows that there have been a number of fatalities due to electrocution from showers:

http://www.etci.ie/fatalfacts/accident.php?AccidentID=83
http://www.etci.ie/fatalfacts/accident.php?AccidentID=33

The view of the ETCI appears to be that an RCD is a very important device.
According to the findings an RCD would have prevented the following fatalities:

http://www.etci.ie/fatalfacts/accident.php?AccidentID=63

http://www.etci.ie/fatalfacts/accident.php?AccidentID=27

http://www.etci.ie/fatalfacts/accident.php?AccidentID=19

http://www.etci.ie/fatalfacts/accident.php?AccidentID=21

Therefore I would conclude that if a circuit supplying a shower is tripping an RCD at the very least the shower should not be used until this problem is resolved by a qualified electrician.

Bruthal · 02-03-2014 11:23am

No one suggested RCDs should not be used, or that a shower tripping can't be dangerous. However, in this thread the shower had been replaced, cable replaced, tripping is intermittent, and quite possibly the problem lies elsewhere, especially with an Rcd covering the shower along with multiple circuits. Replacing with dedicated Rcbo could sort shower tripping.

But the conclusion that RCDs would have prevented the above fatalities is not conclusive beyond doubt, and is sort of different than asking if an item tripping an Rcd is dangerous. Anyone receiving a shock live to neutral won't have any rcd saving them unless there is also a decent contact to earth. They say for example a plug in Rcd would have saved the person cutting in the garden. Do they mention if there was an Rcd on the circuit? Why didnt they say an Rcd on the socket circuit would have saved him? Its as if they believe a plug in one would have been better. And the person with the reversed polarity light, where was second point of contact there?

A properly earthed shower is exceptionally unlikely to cause anyone any problems no matter what the shower does. A non properly earthed shower is a little more of a concern even with an RCD, and it is less likely to trip RCD in the event of a problem within the shower.

At the end if the day I asked a poster a question about where is the danger in the case here. I didnt say there can't be any danger.

05-03-2014 1:38pm

Due to popular demand this thread has been unlocked.
Stay on topic, do not derail the thread and no trading insults please.

Have a nice day,

2011

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 2:21pm

Electrician called last night and put the shower on its own RCBO and its still tripping the RCD! Now, however, it trips it after a minute or two. This is becoming a real worry :-(

tomdempsey200 · 05-03-2014 2:29pm

Comer1 wrote: »

Electrician called last night and put the shower on its own RCBO and its still tripping the RCD! Now, however, it trips it after a minute or two. This is becoming a real worry :-(

lol

its tripping the rcd or rcbo?

if he's tested the rcbo and final circuit

you've got a faulty shower

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 2:59pm

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

lol

its tripping the rcd or rcbo?

if he's tested the rcbo and final circuit

you've got a faulty shower

LOL indeed :-)

The RCD is tripping, how could two showers be faulty? It must be a fault somewhere else.

tomdempsey200 · 05-03-2014 3:32pm

Comer1 wrote: »

LOL indeed :-)

The RCD is tripping, how could two showers be faulty? It must be a fault somewhere else.

it can't be on both.. only rcd or rcbo

Bruthal · 05-03-2014 3:48pm

Did shower stay on when rcd tripped? If not then your sparks made a mess of adding dedicated rcbo.

tomdempsey200 · 05-03-2014 3:53pm

the thread that keeps giving..

he'll have to clarify the rcbo/rcd situation?

sounds like more messing about..

is this an independent or shared circuit(is there sockets on the circuit)

and has the wiring been tested?

apologies if this as been covered

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 3:53pm

No, but I'm not sure if the RCBO tripped also, it may have.

tomdempsey200 · 05-03-2014 3:56pm

Comer1 wrote: »

No, but I'm not sure if the RCBO tripped also, it may have.

so you fitted an rcbo and the rcd is tripping...... OK!

has the wiring been tested? and is the shower separate to everything else

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 4:08pm

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

the thread that keeps giving..

he'll have to clarify the rcbo/rcd situation?

sounds like more messing about..

is this an independent or shared circuit(is there sockets on the circuit)

and has the wiring been tested?

apologies if this as been covered

He had to rush away, I'm sure he'll run those tests next time. I'd be amazed if its a shared circuit, but it never trips when the pull cord is switched off so how could the problem be from the pull cord to the panel?

Bruthal · 05-03-2014 4:17pm

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

the thread that keeps giving..

Industrial action is all it's short of

tomdempsey200 · 05-03-2014 4:19pm

Bruthal wrote: »

Industrial action is all it's short of

It got closed down.. do that count?

Bruthal · 05-03-2014 5:06pm

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

It got closed down.. do that count?

The 2011 lockout in 2014:)

Irish Steve · 05-03-2014 8:22pm

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, if I am , please correct me.

The panel has a RCD, and downstream from that, there are a number of MCB's that protect the individual circuits that then go out around the property, and included in these is the line to the shower. When the shower line is on, at the pull cord, but the shower is not operating, the RCD will trip on a regular basis.

I am also assuming that there are also some circuits that are supplied from the main fuse/switch that do not go through the RCD, for things like lights, cooker, maybe a hob, and possibly some other circuits.

Now, a New RCBO has been fitted. I am assuming that this new RCBO is downstream of the RCD, and being supplied by the busbar that the RCD is protecting.

Unless I have got this completely wrong, would it not be appropriate to have the RCBO on the bus bar that is NOT protected by the RCD, so that the RCBO is acting only on the circuit it is protecting, and is not drawing any power through the RCD.

If a new RCBO has been fitted downstream of the RCD, and the RCD is still tripping when the RCBO line is powered, there is something VERY strange going on with that panel, unless I have got it wrong somewhere, if there is an earth leakage on the shower line, then the RCBO should have gone out before the RCD, unless the RCD is more sensitive than the RCBO, or (and this is beginning to look like a possible) there is something else on a different line that's leaking and thus taking the RCD over the trip limit , and it's only the combination that's providing the trip level current to the RCD.

Sitting here thinking about this, is there an immersion heater in the system, if there is, is it on the RCD bus or the main bus, and could there be any possibility that there is some sort of earth loop/neutral loop or leakage issue happening with the shower and the hot water tank and the immersion heater, even if the heater is not being used? The Immersion may not be on the bus bar that the RCD is protecting, so if the immersion was in some way faulty, could that be providing a neutral imbalance somehow to the circuits that are protected by the RCD. Clutching at straws a little here to get my head around this without seeing the panel to know what other circuits are involved. The underlying thought is that in some cases, I've seen immersion heaters where the live is "live" through the device, and the thermostat on the device is the switch that controls the on/off, so if there's some leakage potential in the immersion heater, it could be leaking slightly, even though it's "off". I hope that makes sense, I can't draw a circuit diagram of what's going through my mind on this, I don't have suitable software, but it could be a possible reason for some leakage that's upsetting the system.

Sir Arthur Daley · 05-03-2014 8:29pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

Now, a New RCBO has been fitted. I am assuming that this new RCBO is downstream of the RCD, and being supplied by the busbar that the RCD is protecting.

This appears to be the case.

Unless I have got this completely wrong, would it not be appropriate to have the RCBO on the bus bar that is NOT protected by the RCD, so that the RCBO is acting only on the circuit it is protecting, and is not drawing any power through the RCD.

This is the correct thing to do, i really do hope that the electrician has not left the shower circuit energized since leaving without doing the tests.

Bruthal · 05-03-2014 8:37pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

If a new RCBO has been fitted downstream of the RCD, and the RCD is still tripping when the RCBO line is powered, there is something VERY strange going on with that panel, unless I have got it wrong somewhere, if there is an earth leakage on the shower line, then the RCBO should have gone out before the RCD, unless the RCD is more sensitive than the RCBO, or (and this is beginning to look like a possible) there is something else on a different line that's leaking and thus taking the RCD over the trip limit , and it's only the combination that's providing the trip level current to the RCD.

Sitting here thinking about this, is there an immersion heater in the system, if there is, is it on the RCD bus or the main bus, and could there be any possibility that there is some sort of earth loop/neutral loop or leakage issue happening with the shower and the hot water tank and the immersion heater, even if the heater is not being used? The Immersion may not be on the bus bar that the RCD is protecting, so if the immersion was in some way faulty, could that be providing a neutral imbalance somehow to the circuits that are protected by the RCD. Clutching at straws a little here to get my head around this without seeing the panel to know what other circuits are involved. The underlying thought is that in some cases, I've seen immersion heaters where the live is "live" through the device, and the thermostat on the device is the switch that controls the on/off, so if there's some leakage potential in the immersion heater, it could be leaking slightly, even though it's "off". I hope that makes sense, I can't draw a circuit diagram of what's going through my mind on this, I don't have suitable software, but it could be a possible reason for some leakage that's upsetting the system.

An RCD upstream of the RCBO could in certain instances, trip due to cumulative leakage, leaving the RCBO untripped as it controls only a single circuit.

Immersions sometimes do cause these problems due to neutral-earth shorts or near shorts, and depending on how much of a short it is, varying levels of circuit current in other circuits can then cause a trip. It might have a neutral to earth short which will cause other circuits to trip it, when the immersion isolating switch is on, but its timer might have the immersion off so that the element is not energised.

If there was a fault on the immersion with leakage as you suggest, then the immersion will have to be actually on fully, as in energised, and it would itself likely trip the RCD then, as soon as turned on.

Turning off the immersion on/off switch will eliminate the immersion from the equation.

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 10:11pm

I have to be honest, those last few posts were above my head

Anyway, I hope I can communicate this correctly: there is current coming back through the earth. It's coming from the shower itself. The little grey guy shown in the first picture is joining the live and earth as shown in the picture of the shower. This is how both showers I tried are shipped and when this is removed, everything is perfect. So it looks like we need to contact triton and see what this means.

Sir Arthur Daley · 05-03-2014 10:18pm

I think we have an end to the mystery.

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 10:25pm

I don't know. What are the chances of the two the two showers being faulty?
We also tried that little resistor from the other shower and the fault was still there. What is that thing for anyway?

Bruthal · 05-03-2014 10:43pm

Comer1 wrote: »

I don't know. What are the chances of the two the two showers being faulty?
We also tried that little resistor from the other shower and the fault was still there. What is that thing for anyway?

Probably noise suppression capacitors. What model shower is it?

Clear concise info is needed. Exactly what is tripping now.

RCD with all sockets going off?

As I and others have said, the RCBO should have been connected independently of the RCD, so only the RCBO would trip with residual current problems.

Adding in an RCBO onto the RCD was a pointless exercise if that is what has been done, in terms of stopping the RCD tripping if the shower was the cause.

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 11:06pm

I just turned on the pull cord without that gray capacitor connected in the shower and it tripped the RCD in less than a minute. So, that is not the problem. I don't know how the RCBO is connected. This is really getting depressing.

Bruthal · 05-03-2014 11:10pm

Comer1 wrote: »

I just turned on the pull cord without that gray capacitor connected in the shower and it tripped the RCD in less than a minute. So, that is not the problem. I don't know how the RCBO is connected. This is really getting depressing.

If the RCBO is switched off, and the RCD on, can we assume the shower does not come on?

As a test to see that the RCBO does in fact control the shower.

The connection into the shower looks a bit sort of makeshift or something as well. No sleeving of earth. Floating connector block etc.

tomdempsey200 · 05-03-2014 11:20pm

looks like a 6sq off an old instant shower

if it's an independent circuit it's quite straightforward to sort out with an rcbo fitted and protective device/fixed wiring tested

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 11:21pm

Bruthal wrote: »

If the RCBO is switched off, and the RCD on, can we assume the shower does not come on?

As a test to see that the RCBO does in fact control the shower.

The connection into the shower looks a bit sort of makeshift or something as well. No sleeving of earth. Floating connector block etc.

With RCBO off, there is no power to the shower. The connector block was left like that after the capacitor was removed, it has been properly fitted up until this evening. That is the original cable that I reverted back to after running a new cable from the shower to pull cord made no difference. The new cable that I tried was fully sieved.

Sir Arthur Daley · 05-03-2014 11:24pm

We can deduce now that the shower RCBO is fed from the RCD which is incorrect.

Comer1 · 05-03-2014 11:25pm

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

looks like a 6sq off an old instant shower

if it's an independent circuit it's quite straightforward to sort out with an rcbo fitted and protective device/fixed wiring tested

Could the problem be that somewhere on the cable going from the pull cord back to the panel, a socket or something has been added.

Bruthal · 05-03-2014 11:27pm

WikiHow wrote: »

We can deduce now that the shower RCBO is fed from the RCD which is incorrect.

It looks like it alright. Schoolboy error there.

Sir Arthur Daley · 05-03-2014 11:28pm

Comer1 wrote: »

Could the problem be that somewhere on the cable going from the pull cord back to the panel, a socket or something has been added.

I thought you replaced the cable?

New Triton As2000X Power Shower Triping Breaker

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