Sean Sherlock is currently debating with Tom Murphy (DeVore) and others

armitage_skanks

Wibbs wrote: »

I've a lot of time for the Simon McGarr chap too. When you see quality minds, quality arguments and quality rebuttals ranged against a the minister and still the same minister sees no great problem with his stance and this legislation exists today, you really have to wonder about this nation of ours. If ever there was an example in microcosm of the guff that has held and continues to hold this nation back for too long just watch that video.

The minister takes your point, but just in relation to this issue, we have to open a dialogue to push forward on the issue, we're ahead of the curve in relation to the EU but there's a lot of rhetoric going around. The situation isn't black and white, but going forward we have to really push through the glass ceiling and towards the next paradigm shift.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Professey Chin

armitage_skanks wrote: »

The minister takes your point, but just in relation to this issue, we have to open a dialogue to push forward on the issue, we're ahead of the curve in relation to the EU but there's a lot of rhetoric going around. The situation isn't black and white, but going forward we have to really push through the glass ceiling and towards the next paradigm shift.

.........seems legit!

Nothingbetter2d

go Tom go Tom go Tom

Nothingbetter2d

Aquila wrote: »

Anyone know where i can watch the proceedings?

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21566287

GAAman

Well done Tom I know you had said you are not used to talking to people like that but you carried yourself and your excellent points fantastically well.

Sherlock was found out again, stammering and spluttering his way through it, the only true thing he said was that we were "píssed off"

And lastly, "Because I fight, ask MCD" Ye feckin beaut haha!

Mountainlad

armitage_skanks wrote: »

The minister takes your point, but just in relation to this issue, we have to open a dialogue to push forward on the issue, we're ahead of the curve in relation to the EU but there's a lot of rhetoric going around. The situation isn't black and white, but going forward we have to really push through the glass ceiling and towards the next paradigm shift.

...if you will....

Gordon

The world is still waiting for a politician to talk with unambiguous honesty.

Sherlock: I don't mind people being facetious, OK? You know, you can be facetious if you want to be, Simon, OK?
Simon: I'm always facetious.
Sherlock: Well it doesn't become you, right?

Sure, lets talk about this thing, OK?! I'm here for you. OK, so here's what I was going to do anyway, right!

kowloon

roro1neil0 wrote: »

always presumed devore was a guy in his twenties wearing jeans and a transformers tshirt with a bit of subway mayonnaise rubbed into it. he's actually a busy business man.

The suit goes on over it.

smash

I feel the debate, as excellent ad it was, was missing one crucial ingredient. Dev, you should have stood up and shouted "f*ck you minister Sherlock.... Sorry I withdraw that comment!"

Sinfonia

That part about the alternative SI and the attorney general was hilarious

Couldn't help but think of this: (skip to 2:35)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sgj78QG9Bg

Edit: By the way, the line is "You equivocatin' like a mutha****a"

kowloon

smash wrote: »

I feel the debate, as excellent ad it was, was missing one crucial ingredient. Dev, you should have stood up and shouted "f*ck you minister Sherlock.... Sorry I withdraw that comment!"

Most unparliamentary language... :pac:

GLaDOS

Watched the whole thing there, well done Tom.

SS seemed very unsure of himself.

Bubblefett

http://www.thejournal.ie/sherlock-some-criticism-of-copyright-law-is-general-anti-government-sentiment-405844-Apr2012/

Some of the highlights from todays panel

GLaDOS

Haha, who was this?

HUNK

Well done there Tom, you made me giggle a few times.

Fair play to Sherlock though for steppin' up. Can't have been easy with all the angry stares and tweets being thrown at him

Fear the slide, Sherlock :pac:

DeVore

roro1neil0 wrote: »

always presumed devore was a guy in his twenties wearing jeans and a transformers tshirt with a bit of subway mayonnaise rubbed into it. he's actually a busy business man.

Actually I'm kinda both truth be told... I can wrap my earthly form in a suit of course but I was also in the mosh pit at Rage Against The Machine last year too. I've never been comfortable with the whole "suit" thing but other people base judgements on such things.

Faiche Ro

interesting viewing.
Im new enough to boards but i was interested in past episodes of copyright (i think one MCD was mentioned). Is there anywhere i can read on the story behind these..out of curiosity?

Sanjuro

Watched a recording of the debate this evening. What was most striking about it was how quickly Sean Sherlock was exposed for having a very lose grasp on the law that he spearheaded. Congrats DeVore. It was really great to see somebody with experience and knowledge stand up for us little guys. Even if 80,000 voices have been ignored before.

FruitLover

Confab wrote: »

this SOPA stuff isn't very important to most people. Like most Irish laws, it sounds threatening until you realise that it won't be enforced

If you watch the video, you'll see that DeV makes the point that it doesn't even take enforcement to be a problem. The mere threat of legal quandry is enough to have an impact on freedom of speech. Boards is big enough (and DeV and co are stubborn enough) to be able to fight the likes of MCD, but what will happen in the cases of smaller companies, or companies run by people with lower moral standards than the Boards crew?

stupidusername

What is it about Sherlock that makes me want to squoosh his head? he's so condescending.

Orion

DeVore wrote: »

Actually I'm kinda both truth be told... I can wrap my earthly form in a suit of course but I was also in the mosh pit at Rage Against The Machine last year too. I've never been comfortable with the whole "suit" thing but other people base judgements on such things.

I base my judgement on you handing him his ass on a plate . It was a pleasure to be there to see that.

So much for your nerves - I didn't need to go to it naked as I threatened you with

Orion

Dustaz wrote: »

Seriously, is there an existing thread on this anywhere else?

1000 forums and theres no Live Internet Political Debating forum? disgraceful.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=461

Cianos

If anyone was in the live streaming room in the science gallery I was the guy at the back with the baby. Hope she didn't disturb anyone, brought her outside when she started derping :pac:

Orion

I saw you when we were leaving. Future pirate is she

Rabies

GAAman wrote: »

And lastly, "Because I fight, ask MCD" Ye feckin beaut haha!

loved that bit

Duggy747

Just watched it there. Well done, Tom, you came out fantastic on it.

I couldn't help but notice Sherlock's smug faces he kept pulling everytime Tom tried to make a point (a point which would puncture another hole in this bloated SI). The politician-talk in him was painfully slow as he tried to explain the SI and his actions on ignoring the alternative.

If anything, Sherlock made it more clear that his intentions for firing this out the door so quickly was so that Ireland could be seen in Europe and in the commercial market for having done something "innovative". Good grief.....

He doesn't appear to have a grasp on the full implications this will have down the line. I don't even think he's aware of how Boards has changed in terms of linking articles and what type of topics can be discussed in other forums. The argument Tom made about how the Boards team aren't even sure what they're supposed to be stopping on this site because of bad wording seemed to have been completely forgotten by Sherlock by the end.

It really is quite shocking to think, had this not gotten so much public attention, the possibility this SI would've just sailed on through in it's current form.

*kisses eCommerce paper on the wall

"Love you!!"

Morlar

That clip was even more worrying. The impression I get is that Sherlock hasn't budged one degree from the course he has been firmly set on since the beginning, the rest of it is excuses, evasion and window dressing.

take everything

Half way through this now.
Sherlock seems to be a bit of a clown- he definitely didn't cover himself in glory. he seems to waffle a lot. I dunno what his problem with McGarr is.
Devore was pretty good, made a few good points.

Overheal

This clip is brilliant. "Is this just a long way of saying no?"

Watching Dev play on his iPad made me hope against hopes he would pull a tony stark.

take everything

Sherlock: "That's a wonderful oratorical flourish by Simon..."
Did McGarr knock down the minister's dog on his way to the Science Gallery or something.
Sherlock is odious.

please don't sue me. FFS :rolleyes:

Esel

Who was the dweeb in the double-breasted suit? Can't remember the last time I saw one of those!

listermint

Duggy747 wrote: »

If anything, Sherlock made it more clear that his intentions for firing this out the door so quickly was so that Ireland could be seen in Europe and in the commercial market for having done something "innovative". Good grief.....

You know what your a probably right. I would assume Sherlock sees this has some sort of Smoking Ban Mark II where Ireland sets the trend for other European states and is lauded for it. But he doesnt comprehend the issue whatsoever.

Jimoslimos

Just watched this now, interesting debate.

Usual empty meaningless waffle from Sherlock, although fair play to him for having the balls to enter any sort of debate. Though on reflection it is probably the least I'd expect given the dearth of discussion this has received, most notably in the Dáil. He did look seriously out of depth and at times I nearly felt sorry for him - it is now patently obvious that he's only the tool (in all senses of the word) used to drive the laws through.

DeV gaven an excellent account, strongest in the Q&A section at the end. Didn't mince his words but was respectful towards the Minister nonetheless.
Mark: 8/10: One because he could have been pitted against a more worthy opponent and two because there's always room for improvement!

Also I would have liked to have seen somebody there debate on Sherlock's side - just for the sake of balance. Interesting that none of the lobby groups pushing weren't represented - were they invited?

Dubit10

Sherlock makes a lot of sense tbh. Good to see he's doing something to tackle the problem.

My name is URL

Dubit10 wrote: »

Sherlock makes a lot of sense tbh. Good to see he's doing something to tackle the problem.

Give a brief outline of the sensible points he has made.

Logical Fallacy

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Just watched this now, interesting debate.

Usual empty meaningless waffle from Sherlock, although fair play to him for having the balls to enter any sort of debate. Though on reflection it is probably the least I'd expect given the dearth of discussion this has received, most notably in the Dáil. He did look seriously out of depth and at times I nearly felt sorry for him - it is now patently obvious that he's only the tool (in all senses of the word) used to drive the laws through.

DeV gaven an excellent account, strongest in the Q&A section at the end. Didn't mince his words but was respectful towards the Minister nonetheless.
Mark: 8/10: One because he could have been pitted against a more worthy opponent and two because there's always room for improvement!

Also I would have liked to have seen somebody there debate on Sherlock's side - just for the sake of balance. Interesting that none of the lobby groups pushing weren't represented - were they invited?

lol, balls to Sherlock, he only showed because he had one of the proposed debate members removed.

listermint

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

lol, balls to Sherlock, he only showed because he had one of the proposed debate members removed.

Werent they 'unremoved'

GLaDOS

take everything wrote: »

I dunno what his problem with McGarr is.

Anyone know what the story with that is? Clearly some sort of history or something between them.

My name is URL

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Anyone know what the story with that is? Clearly some sort of history or something between them.

Sherlock maintains that McGarr used sensationalism and misinformation in order to drum up blind support for the 'Stop SOPA Ireland' campaign.

recylingbin

TBH, I was disappointed with the debate.
Sherlock, while not very clued in, still knew more than alot of people, myself included, gave him credit for.
DeVore seemed only interested in his own business interests and not the good of a greater community of internet users.
The other guy was basically just spelling out what it meant for ISPs and really was a pointless addition.

The one good bit, I thought what was where Sherlock was pointing to european law as a recourse if badly treated and it was pointed out that european law shouldn't have to be a failsafe for bad Irish law.

Other than that it was a poor effort.

CrazyRabbit

I think Sherlock is genuine in his wish to find a working solution.
I think it's great that he is willing to have a very public debate over this using modern media. That's gotta be first for a minister.

Saying that...I don't for one second believe he knows what he is doing. He blindly signed into law something that was deeply and very obviously flawed, and rejected all efforts to 'fix' or 'improve' it. He just point blank cannot see the risks, or the long term effects. And that really is the issue with him.

I also think he needs to stop using the "CRC 86 questions" as a 'This will fix everything' argument. On its own, it will not. (He waived that piece of paper around like a shield in that debate!) We require input from everyone affected, not least of whom is the Irish public as they have don't paid lobbyists from wealthy corporations with vested interests.

The law needs a very clear definition of 'Fair Use', what constitutes copyright infringement, what are the responsibilities of intermeditiary bodies, and what are reasonable punishments for copyright infringes.

Oh and also...DeVore, if you ever run for office, I'll vote for you. Great speaker, very down to earth, respectful & honest.

Seachmall

recylingbin wrote: »

DeVore seemed only interested in his own business interests and not the good of a greater community of internet users.

Which was a point he made early on. He has a legal obligation to protect his investors from legal action, therefore this SI would force him to compromise his dedication to free speech on Boards.ie which is not something he would be happy about. He was only talking about his own business because that's what he knows best (how it would/will affect Boards.ie) but it's easily applicable to any other community and internet based businesses.

It's a threat to innovation in an area where we're heavily invested.

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I think Sherlock is genuine in his wish to find a working solution.

Had he had that mentality before signing it into law it would be a respectable approach. However, he pushed it into law without regard for criticisms and now that it's in he's all for sitting down and talking about it, which is contemptible.

His attempt of looking for a workable solution now is condescending and patronising, and I'd rather he be removed from his position than have to discuss anything with him.


.

Jimoslimos

recylingbin wrote: »

DeVore seemed only interested in his own business interests and not the good of a greater community of internet users.
The other guy was basically just spelling out what it meant for ISPs and really was a pointless addition.

Well DeV never shied away from the fact that he has a responsibility to his shareholders so I wouldn't have expected much different.
Government: Sean Sherlock
ISPs : Paul Durant
Small/Medium Irish Internet Business: Tom Murphy
Internet Users: Simon McGarr
Entertainment Industry/Copyright holders: ?????

He actually made the point that by kicking up a storm now, it was highly unlikely that anyone would attempt to sue Boards given the bad publicity - however in fighting against these laws now, he is standing up for the smaller companies and those not yet in existence - some of which could conceivably pose a competitive threat to Boards in the future.

deV, seriously, you're being used in vain. Can you please run this country? I'll be your second-in-command, of course.

blatantrereg

Really good debate.

Interesting that he mentioned funding DERI. Could be Interpretted as a veiled form of sabre rattling.

Tend to agree with DeVore that it is the start of some major changes wrt internet access.

Clear rules are needed to say how you run a self-publish Website like boards really. It's completely unreasonable to only say after the fact that some practice wasn't acceptable.

It will probably end up with a choice between loss of anonymity - users will be personally identifiable in a more real way than an IP address or a registration email address (and hence more accountable for what they say)...or pre-moderation of any published content.

Faolchu

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

.

Oh and also...DeVore, if you ever run for office, I'll vote for you. Great speaker, very down to earth, respectful & honest.

make that two votes

Faolchu

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Government: Sean Sherlock
ISPs : Paul Durant
Small/Medium Irish Internet Business: Tom Murphy
Internet Users: Simon McGarr
Entertainment Industry/Copyright holders: Sean Sherlock

.

YYP for ya

Wibbs

recylingbin wrote: »

DeVore seemed only interested in his own business interests and not the good of a greater community of internet users.

Well that was his role there. Even so we must not have been listening to the same debate as I recall Devore mentioning the wider implications to internet users and e commerce innovation in general. Much more than he mentioned his own biz. Of the panelists the Sherlock side seemed to be the ones dithering. Then again the cynic in me feels he's a puppet of greater forces and lobbies. Witting or unwitting I'll leave to history to decide.

I am NOT saying Mr. Sherlock is party to any future tribunal type stuff. Not at all. I'm simply saying he's been listening to only one side for a long time and that stuff stuck and mired him in this mindset. Indeed the non cynic in me is beginning to think the same Mr. Sherlock is beginning to suspect that himself hence his greater willingness to publicly debate this stuff even after the horse has bolted.

I did find interesting the woman's voice from the floor taking Devore to task for overstating the leverage vested interests have and how the public may not be listened to. IMHO either she is terribly naive or a shill. I don't think it too conspiratorial to suggest that Joe and Josephine O'Public have remarkably little say and what say they do have is limited in between general elections. And even then... Mores the point most of the O'Publics out there are damn near proactive in not giving a toss or just complain after the fact.

Builders of legislation tend to be a very small group with restricted access. Save for powerful lobbies or people within the circle. The FF tent at the Galway races was just a more crass and obvious access point. Was it Bismarck who said "Laws are like sausages. It’s better not to see them being made".

Morlar

I want to see the smartphone picture of the 50 lobbyists.

Seriously how often do the public get to see that side of Irish politics ?

We never stop hearing about 'parish pump politics' but this is the side of it that we really need to worry about & journalists don't even mention it.