Getting my rifle zeroed

eoinkildare

Hey lads,
I've a .22lr cz452. Shoots well. I got a scope in america and fitted it to the rifle. The problem is that while it groups well and the scope is alligned perfectly for left to right, the crosshairs are too low even when the dials are put to the maximum height. at 70 yards i need to aim a good five inches high at least to hit centre.
Is there any way i can raise the front of the scope slightly to get this fixed?

Eoin

kildare.17hmr

Simple way is to put a shim under the rear mount to lift it slightly. Clivej used a cut out and folded lenght of tin that worked well on a cz 527 i bought off him. Have you tried swaping the mounts around?

Cass

What mounting system are you using?
Is it rings onto dovetail or rings onto picatinny rail?
what height is the scope of the barrel?

eoinkildare wrote:

Is there any way i can raise the front of the scope slightly to get this fixed?

Shimming will eliminate the problem as will an MOA rail. However its the back of the "scope" you need to raise not th front. So if it's rings directly onto the dovetail then shim the back mount/ring. If you have a rail the same applies. Shim the back of the rail (back of it being the end closest the bolt handle, back of receiver etc)

lefthooker

Would a set of higher rings sort out the problem?

eoinkildare

If i aim at the centre of a target, then the bullet is hitting a good bit lower than centre. (at 50 yards even). surely this means the front of the scope needs to come up? or am i getting it wrong altogether? if i am, then maybe i've been turning the dials the wrong way?!

THanks for the help lads,
Eoin

lefthooker

eoinkildare wrote: »

If i aim at the centre of a target, then the bullet is hitting a good bit lower than centre. (at 50 yards even). surely this means the front of the scope needs to come up? or am i getting it wrong altogether? if i am, then maybe i've been turning the dials the wrong way?!

THanks for the help lads,
Eoin

When you zero, the adjustments you make are to the bullet POI and not to the scopes crosshairs. If you've run out of up clicks you need to shim/raise the rear mount. Or get a set of higher rings I think. If your running out of down clicks then you are doing things arseways
I had the same problem with zeroing a new scope on my .22, changed a set of low mounts for a set of medium and sorted the problem

eoinkildare

cheers lefthooker

Cass

Don't forget that to raise the bullets POI your crosshairs, when you click up, actually go down to force you to raise the barrel. So to shim the scope to give more up elevation you need to shim the rear as was said above.

eoinkildare

Can anything be used as a shim?

Cass

You can buy shimming brass. It comes in different thickness so you know what you are shimming it by. However aluminium (from a can) will work aswell. Problem there is it's the same thinkness so you have to keep adding until you get the desired height.

eoinkildare

Thanks lads,
i'll try that during the week

Mr.Flibble

Ezridax wrote: »

Don't forget that to raise the bullets POI your crosshairs, when you click up, actually go down to force you to raise the barrel.

Just to be clear, the crosshairs do actually go up. It's just that they look like they're going down, which makes you point the rifle higher.

Cass

However you want to describe it or whatever works for yourself.

eoinkildare

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Just to be clear, the crosshairs do actually go up. It's just that they look like they're going down, which makes you point the rifle higher.

so just to be clear... my problem is that when i aim at something, the bullet is hitting below it. i have been turning the dial in the direction that says up and now it won't go any further, but the bullet is still hitting below where i am aiming. i take it that i have been doing the right thing but that now the best thing for me to do is to put a shim in the mount at the back of the rifle in order to make the back of the scope sit up a small bit higher from the barrel.

that correct? (very confused!)

Mr.Flibble

eoinkildare wrote: »

so just to be clear... my problem is that when i aim at something, the bullet is hitting below it. i have been turning the dial in the direction that says up and now it won't go any further, but the bullet is still hitting below where i am aiming. i take it that i have been doing the right thing but that now the best thing for me to do is to put a shim in the mount at the back of the rifle in order to make the back of the scope sit up a small bit higher from the barrel.

that correct? (very confused!)

That is correct. You're not confused.

Mr.Flibble

Ezridax wrote: »

However you want to describe it or whatever works for yourself.

Which way do you think the crosshairs are going to move when the proposed shimming is carried out?

Up or down? Describe it whichever way you prefer.

Cass

You are trying to get the POI (point of impact), and the POA (point of aim) to "meet".

As you said yourself your POI is lower than your POA. Therefore the scope, and bore are not "aligned" at your set distance. When you click up your crosshairs will dial down so as to drop the crosshairs onto the POI. Now when you raise the rifle to aim at the bullseye again the bore is now pointing higher than before, and POA & POI should "match".

Excuse the terminology, but this could be shown to you in about 15 seconds, but trying to convey it in words is a little harder.

Cass

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

Which way do you think the crosshairs are going to move when the proposed shimming is carried out?

Up or down? Describe it whichever way you prefer.

When the rear mount of the scope is shimmed you raise the back and point the front (objective lense) of the scope downward. There are no adustments made to the scope/crosshairs (via the turrets). This is a physical movement of the scope so of course the scope, and hence crosshairs are pointing further down than at their previous setting (without shim).

Cass

Just an extra hint/tip.

If you are going the shimming route do not shim with your elevtion turret maxed out at it's highest setting. Drop the elevation by between 10-15MOA (40-60 clicks if it's 0.25 click value). Then shim as appropriate to get your zero or as close to it as possible.

This way you still have adjustment left. Otherwise you will get your zero, and find you hav no adjustment left for farther shots, and have to re-shim again.

A thing that clivej suggested elsewhere that may save you alot of work is to buy a picatinny rail from rimfire technologies (IIRC). These are rails designed for CZs that come with 20MOA (and others i think) already integrated into them. Meaning no shimming, but could mean a new set of rings. I'll find the link, and post it when i do.

eoinkildare

Thanks a lot for all the replies Ezridax. I have cut up a can now to make shims. Do they go inside the actual mounting ring or do they fit under the mount in some way? I'm just worried that if they go inside the ring (directly under the scope itself) will they reduce the diameter of the ring and therefore risk crushing the scope?
Also, if at 50 yards the POI is say 3 inches below POA, how many shims from a standard can would one expect to need to add to bring the POI and POA in line? Obviously i'm expecting an exact figure, but are we talking tiny shim height to bring the two together?

Mr.Flibble

Ezridax wrote: »

When the rear mount of the scope is shimmed you raise the back and point the front (objective lense) of the scope downward. There are no adustments made to the scope/crosshairs (via the turrets). This is a physical movement of the scope so of course the scope, and hence crosshairs are pointing further down than at their previous setting (without shim).

Hmmm. Maybe I should have insisted on the one-word answer.

But basically you're right, tipping the back of the scope has the same effect as moving the reticle in the same direction. It's just that your earlier post gave the impression that it was the opposite, i.e. that the reticle moved in the opposite direction to the adjuster, and implied you didn't understand why it works like that.

Cass

eoinkildare wrote: »

Do they go inside the actual mounting ring or do they fit under the mount in some way?

They go under the actual ring/mount (whatever you call it). They do not go inside the ring, as in resting between the scope, and inside of ring. Too many and as you said you risk "crushing" the body of the scope when you tighten down the screws.

Also, if at 50 yards the POI is say 3 inches below POA, how many shims from a standard can would one expect to need to add to bring the POI and POA in line? Obviously i'm expecting an exact figure, but are we talking tiny shim height to bring the two together?

This could get interesting.:D

IIRC i used three pieces of shimming brass, each 0.25 of a mm, which gave me between 11-12 MOA in return. I tried pieces of a can on another rifle, and if memory serves the thickness of the can is 0.36mm. So st 50 yards you are 3" low. If your scope is 0.25" click value at 100 yards its going to be approx. 0.125" (half that the 100 yard adjustment) at 50. So you need 24 clicks or 6 MOA to get up that 3". So thats approx. 2 pieces of shim material.

Now as said above with your scope maxed out you are 3" low. So if you dial back (down) 10MOA (40 clicks) to give yourself some adjustment you are looking at another 2-3 pieces.

So to round it all up between what you are low, what you will be when you ial the scope down before shimming you will need at least 3 and possible 4 pieces of tin. Thats approx. 1.02mm for 3 pieces, and 1.38mm for 4. That'll give you between 15-20 (or so) MOA.

Now here is the problem. I'm assuming as it's a CZ that your rings attach straight onto the dovetail (11mm) rail of the rifle? Meaning you have very little "grip" for the jaws of the ring to grab as you have raised the ring up of the receiver. It'll be tricky, but can be done. Also as it's only a .22lr there is no recoil for the scope/rings to deal with. It'll be awkward, but you'll get it.

My advice is if you get it done try the rifle out, and if it solves the problem i would definitely look into getting a 20MOA rail (specifically made) for the rifle. Less grief, and alot tidier. Such as this;

Mr.Flibble wrote:

Hmmm. Maybe I should have insisted on the one-word answer..

Well you did say dealers choice..

But basically you're right, tipping the back of the scope has the same effect as moving the reticle in the same direction. It's just that your earlier post gave the impression that it was the opposite, i.e. that the reticle moved in the opposite direction to the adjuster, and implied you didn't understand why it works like that.

You mean your inference.

Mr.Flibble

Ezridax wrote: »

You mean your inference.

Easy mistake to make. You could have been clearer. You would have perplexed an inexperienced shooter looking at how his adjustment turret works.

Cass

Not really. The OP got the idea from post 8. It seems that after your post is when the confusion arose. However the OP has his answer, and seems confident enough to try what has been suggested.

As he has his answer i'd like to clarify another thing between the two of us. A hypothetical situation.

I'm at a range and sitting/lying at the 100yard target. I'm aiming at the bull of the target. I fire, and my POI and POA are exactly on bull. I move to 200 yards. I set the rifle up, without adjusting the scope, and aim the crosshair at the bull of the target. I fire, and the POI is (for talks sake) 1" below the POA. I then adjust my scope (say it's a 0.25 click value scope) 4 clicks up. The crosshair moves in a downward motion. After 4 clicks up (with the crosshair moving down) the POA and POI are now on the same point (the bullet hole).

I now adjust the entire rifle (not the scope) via the bipod height, adjusting the back bag, whichever, to place the crosshairs back up to the bullseye. I fire and now the POA, and POI are once again the same.

Are you saying the crosshair does not travel in a downward direction. That it actually moves upwards, but through some "illusion" (for want of a better word) the crosshair only appears to moving downward. If so, and the crosshair does infact travel upward (away from the POI) how does the shooter get his/her zero for that distance? Why does it appear to move downward? Is it something to do with the lenses in the scope? Lastly if the crosshairs appear to move in a downward direction, when infact they actually move upward (but you cannot see this) why bring it up at all? Surely if they look to be moving downward then explaining it as such would be the simplier answer to give rather than "They really travel upward, but you will not see this, but will infact see a downward movement".

I ask because everytime i adjust my scope when shooting targets and i turn the elevation dial up, as marked "U" on the turret the crosshair travels in a downward motion/direction forcing me to raise the rifle & scope (collectively) up to the target. If i turned the scope turret up, "U", and the crosshair traveled in an upward direction it would bring my POA further away from my POI.

lefthooker

Ezridax wrote: »

I'm at a range and sitting/lying at the 100yard target. I'm aiming at the bull of the target. I fire, and my POI and POA are exactly on bull. I move to 200 yards. I set the rifle up, without adjusting the scope, and aim the crosshair at the bull of the target. I fire, and the POI is (for talks sake) 1" below the POA. I then adjust my scope (say it's a 0.25 click value scope) 4 clicks up. The crosshair moves in a downward motion. After 4 clicks up (with the crosshair moving down) the POA and POI are now on the same point (the bullet hole)

Is the adjustment not 2 clicks???
If you were 1" low at 200 yards Ez, and dial in 4 clicks up would you not end up 1" high

Cass

It would indeed. Have 100 yard on the brain. Good catch. Just checking your paying attention.:o:D

TBH the clicks are not very important in my little scenario. I'm more interested in the movement, or perceived movement, of the scope's crosshair.

spideog7

For what it's worth OP I have a very similar setup and I use a single piece mount on the dovetail. Does the job grand and it's convenient to not have to try and line everything up.

clivej

I had that 20MOA rail on my CZ 22lr great little addition




Also Sportsmatch do a set of rings for the rimfire rilfes that can be adjustable for both elevation and windage. They work very well, I also had the set of those as well.
http://www.tawnadoairguns.com/two_piece_one_inch.php


ATP652 PIECE, DOUBLE SCREW..Adjustable for windage, elevation and height.
Lateral adjustment allows scopes to be centered with dovetails.
Anti vibration screws fitted as standard.
Suits up to 60mm lens dia. scopes on most rifles.
A=26.5mm - 29mm
B=21mm
£60

Vegeta

Ezridax wrote: »

I ask because everytime i adjust my scope when shooting targets and i turn the elevation dial up, as marked "U" on the turret the crosshair travels in a downward motion/direction forcing me to raise the rifle & scope (collectively) up to the target. If i turned the scope turret up, "U", and the crosshair traveled in an upward direction it would bring my POA further away from my POI.

What you have described here is exactly how both my scopes work anyway.

eoinkildare

Lads,
Great to see i have gotten some debate going and I've gotten loads of info so thanks.
In relation to the rail for the CZ (20MOA), does anyone have an approximate cost for one of these?
I like the idea of the adjustable rings too, so I'l test out the shims and then decide if i need to spend some money.
Last night i messed around with the rifle and making the shims and before i had gotten the answer to my last question i placed three shims directly into the ring to see how it would work. i closed the mount and screwed it down but not too tight as i was worried about crushing the scope. the shims fitted well and the scope seems solid enough.
this question is already answered somewhat (in a best practice way), but if i try it out now on the target and get a good result;
(i) is there anything wrong with leaving it as is?
(ii) if i need to add another shim or two, can i leave the first three inside the ring and avoid the problem of the dovetail not having enough grip left for the mount?

I know what i SHOULD be doing from your posts, but i'm wondering if what i have done so far would also work?

Thanks,

Eoin

clivej

eoinkildare wrote: »

Lads,
Great to see i have gotten some debate going and I've gotten loads of info so thanks.
In relation to the rail for the CZ (20MOA), does anyone have an approximate cost for one of these?
I like the idea of the adjustable rings too, so I'l test out the shims and then decide if i need to spend some money.
Last night i messed around with the rifle and making the shims and before i had gotten the answer to my last question i placed three shims directly into the ring to see how it would work. i closed the mount and screwed it down but not too tight as i was worried about crushing the scope. the shims fitted well and the scope seems solid enough.
this question is already answered somewhat (in a best practice way), but if i try it out now on the target and get a good result;
(i) is there anything wrong with leaving it as is?
(ii) if i need to add another shim or two, can i leave the first three inside the ring and avoid the problem of the dovetail not having enough grip left for the mount?

I know what i SHOULD be doing from your posts, but i'm wondering if what i have done so far would also work?

Thanks,

Eoin

Price for the CZ picatinny rail was $45 + $45 postage. :eek: I can get you contact details.
http://www.diproductsinc.com/Products.aspx?CAT=3600

You can put the shims under the rear of the scope, instead of under the mount on top of the dovetail. The adjustable Sportsmatch mounts work very well IMO