An open apology to the 84% of devout Catholics

D1stant

I like red squirrels, but grey ones are sh1t.

krudler

mcmoustache wrote: »

There are feck-all Roman Catholics in the country. Most of the people who describe themselves as Catholic are actually Christians. They just don't know it yet.

The pope, cardinals, bishops and priests are pretty clear on what you need to do and what you need to believe in order to be a Catholic. For fecks sake, I know what you need to do and what you need to believe to be a Catholic and I don't believe in Catholic teachings so I'm not a Catholic.

There's a lot more to it than "I believe in Jesus and God and Heaven and stuff" which seems to be as far as it goes for most people who are nominally Catholic. If you believe in God, Jesus and Heaven and that stuff, you're a Christian. If you also believe in Transubstantiation (and know what it is), don't practice pre-marital sex, don't use contraception, attend mass regularly, confess your sins regularly, believe that Mary's bodily form went up in the air into heaven and that she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, believe in papal infallibility when he makes formal comments regarding dogma, don't practice abortion, homosexuality or masturbation and never plan on being divorced, then you can start thinking about considering yourself a catholic.

That's not just my opinion. That's more or less the Roman Church's position too and they've been consistently clear on it for as long as I can remember.

Most Irish people simply can't be bothered living their lives as Catholics. I can't so I don't consider myself one. For some reason, most of the population think they're Catholic when they don't believe in core Catholic beliefs and don't live in the way that they've been prescribed. It's insane when you think about it.

Again, let me finish by saying, there are feck-all Catholics in the country.

thank you, people act like theres no set of rules to being a Catholic, there are, and the church itself will tell you the same.

If you consider yourself a Catholic and dont believe you're eating the converted flesh and blood of a jewish zombie at mass, as in not metaphorically, literally eating it, then you're not a catholic, simple as.

Dudess

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

It's a term accepted by scientists

Really? Which ones?

Medical ones.

Toby Take a Bow

daddydick wrote: »

I have absolutely nothing against Athiesm but I would love if Athiests had the same decency to let those who have any sort of faith or beliefs live their lives in peace instead of throwing the inferiority complex argument at every chance

I think you're confusing 'some' with 'all'. Mind you don't hit someone with that brush you're tarring us all with.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

1. I don't believe in god(s) that makes me?

Agnostic/atheist

Chuck Stone wrote: »

2. I don't believe in unicorns that makes me?

Aunicornist?

krudler

daddydick wrote: »

I have absolutely nothing against Athiesm but I would love if Athiests had the same decency to let those who have any sort of faith or beliefs live their lives in peace instead of throwing the inferiority complex argument at every chance

I'd love if the Pope would stop calling gay people evil, then trotting out the "we iz being persecuted!" line when people call the church out on their hatemongering bigotry, but hey ho.

MagicMarker

daddydick wrote: »

I have absolutely nothing against Athiesm but I would love if Athiests had the same decency to let those who have any sort of faith or beliefs live their lives in peace instead of throwing the inferiority complex argument at every chance

I hear ya brother, those damned atheists indoctrinating our children, not giving us any choice of schooling for our kids, knocking on our doors try and spread the word, stopping the gays from getting married.... oh wait, that's the religious folk doing that.

Who should leave who alone in peace again?

Born to Die

Dudess wrote: »

Well ya should be scared of my godless ass! :pac:
Nah, if you're a believer and try to abide as best you can by the tenets of your faith, fair play to you - it's grotesque when good religious people get grief simply for being religious.

I get comfort from my Christianity and if it is a case of just darkness after I go then it won't matter.

I am a person that respects others beliefs whatever they may be but I have found an increase in ridicule coming from people, some peers and even friends because of my unwillingness to accept their belief that there is no God.

Logical Fallacy

daddydick wrote: »

I have absolutely nothing against Athiesm but I would love if Athiests had the same decency to let those who have any sort of faith or beliefs live their lives in peace instead of throwing the inferiority complex argument at every chance

See, that's the kind of thing that makes no sense to me. I'm an Atheist (former Agnostic) but I never tell anyone they have an inferiority complex because of their beliefs. I actually love chatting to religious folk about religion because i am an Atheist with a big interest in Theology.

Weird, right?

RMD

I'd really really love if people of whatever faith (or no faith) just didn't give a shít about other's faith and just viewed it as irrelevant. Cool OP, you think you're incredibly intelligent because you've thought about religion and what it entails. Leading to you becoming an atheist and you're ensuing smug opinion, well done, fair play.

Before anyone develops any opinion about my faith, I'm an atheist. I dislike people who push their beliefs on others (religious or atheist), not someone who simply believes (or doesn't) and doesn't care about others' own views. It's bloody pathetic to think you're better than someone because of your own beliefs.

take everything

Well I hate to break it to you, but you are by default.

Atheists aren't in a group like a religion. Atheism is just the lack of a belief in a God.

tolosenc wrote: »

That'd be agnosticism.

Atheism is the conviction that there are no deities, much like monotheism is the conviction that there is exactly 1 deity.

Jesus wept (see what i did there).
Atheism is indeed a lack of belief in God.
Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge of God's existence.

Ok, so far we've got:
Atheistic smugness.
Misunderstanding of the difference between atheism and agnosticism.
That "there are no atheists in foxholes" quote.
Cue that photo of the marines with the sign.
That "i'm agnostic, i can feel superior to everyone...(or however it goes)" quote.
Southpark Dawkins reference, "thank science..." etc.
This thread seems to be running nicely to schedule.

Freddie59

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Educated by the knowledge contained in the census I would like to apologise for forcing my atheist beliefs on you these past few years.
I confess to thinking that those who were religious as enlightened as a 12 year old believing in Santa but the sheer weight of your lobby has destroyed my argument.
Had I known I represented such a miniscule minority I would have never questioned your church, I'm sorry.

This week the pews will heave with the mass of 3.6 million people professing their faith.
Standing room only as the cars stand triple parked outside.
I ask only as one thing of you true disciples of God . . . . . forgive me.

Amazing the things that bother people really.:rolleyes:

Dudess

krudler wrote: »

mcmoustache wrote: »

There are feck-all Roman Catholics in the country. Most of the people who describe themselves as Catholic are actually Christians. They just don't know it yet.

The pope, cardinals, bishops and priests are pretty clear on what you need to do and what you need to believe in order to be a Catholic. For fecks sake, I know what you need to do and what you need to believe to be a Catholic and I don't believe in Catholic teachings so I'm not a Catholic.

There's a lot more to it than "I believe in Jesus and God and Heaven and stuff" which seems to be as far as it goes for most people who are nominally Catholic. If you believe in God, Jesus and Heaven and that stuff, you're a Christian. If you also believe in Transubstantiation (and know what it is), don't practice pre-marital sex, don't use contraception, attend mass regularly, confess your sins regularly, believe that Mary's bodily form went up in the air into heaven and that she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, believe in papal infallibility when he makes formal comments regarding dogma, don't practice abortion, homosexuality or masturbation and never plan on being divorced, then you can start thinking about considering yourself a catholic.

That's not just my opinion. That's more or less the Roman Church's position too and they've been consistently clear on it for as long as I can remember.

Most Irish people simply can't be bothered living their lives as Catholics. I can't so I don't consider myself one. For some reason, most of the population think they're Catholic when they don't believe in core Catholic beliefs and don't live in the way that they've been prescribed. It's insane when you think about it.

Again, let me finish by saying, there are feck-all Catholics in the country.

thank you, people act like theres no set of rules to being a Catholic, there are, and the church itself will tell you the same.

If you consider yourself a Catholic and dont believe you're eating the converted flesh and blood of a jewish zombie at mass, as in not metaphorically, literally eating it, then you're not a catholic, simple as.

While there are self proclaimed Catholics who do anything but love their neighbours and who never go to mass etc, it's difficult to abide by every single rule in this day and age - especially for younger generations. Society/culture aren't exactly conducive to it. And there's so much inconsistency to it too, e.g. you're supposed to love thy neighbour yet hate gays.
I think if a person is all-round decent and makes some effort to go to mass but has sex before marriage and uses contraception, it's reasonable to call themselves catholic. It's the church that needs to move with the times IMO.

MagicMarker

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yes.

1. I don't believe in god(s) that makes me?

2. I don't believe in unicorns that makes me?

Can you see the similarity?

Err, yes. Only we have a word to describe people for option 1 and not for option 2. So what?

But getting back to what you originally said...

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I don't believe in Unicorns. Do I lack a belief in Unicorns?

...and the clear and obvious answer is yes, you lack a belief in Unicorns. (I can't quite believe you actually needed that pointed out to you tbh)

Chuck Stone

Dudess wrote: »

Medical ones.

So medical science uses the word alcoholic in clinical fashion?

St.Spodo

RMD wrote: »

I'd really really love if people of whatever faith (or no faith) just didn't give a shít about other's faith and just viewed it as irrelevant. Cool OP, you think you're incredibly intelligent because you've thought about religion and what it entails. Leading to you becoming an atheist and you're ensuing smug opinion, well done, fair play.

Before anyone develops any opinion about my faith, I'm an atheist. I dislike people who push their beliefs on others (religious or atheist), not someone who simply believes (or doesn't) and doesn't care about others' own views. It's bloody pathetic to think you're better than someone because of your own beliefs.

I'd agree with the last sentence but there's a difference between thinking you're better than someone and thinking your beliefs are better founded, more sophisticated and more rational. It's not snobbery or smugness to think that religious belief defies reason and science, and should be open to ridicule.

Dudess

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

daddydick wrote: »

I have absolutely nothing against Athiesm but I would love if Athiests had the same decency to let those who have any sort of faith or beliefs live their lives in peace instead of throwing the inferiority complex argument at every chance

See, that's the kind of thing that makes no sense to me. I'm an Atheist (former Agnostic) but I never tell anyone they have an inferiority complex because of their beliefs. I actually love chatting to religious folk about religion because i am an Atheist with a big interest in Theology.

Weird, right?

I did a module on religion in society through the ages - bloody fascinating.

krudler

Dudess wrote: »

While there are self proclaimed Catholics who do anything but love their neighbours and who never go to mass etc, it's difficult to abide by every single rule in this day and age - especially for younger generations. Society/culture aren't exactly conducive to it. And there's so much inconsistency to it too, e.g. you're supposed to love thy neighbour yet hate gays.
I think if a person is all-round decent and makes some effort to go to mass but has sex before marriage and uses contraception, it's reasonable to call themselves catholic. It's the church that needs to move with the times IMO.

well to be fair thats like society changing a law just because people dont like it and dont think it should apply to them. (I cant believe I'm defending the church, look what you've reduced me to!) I have more respect for people with actual conviction in their beliefs than pic n mix ones. I do agree that theres way too much contradiction in the church, but hey, shows it up for the silly organisation it is.

Dyr

Man those middle class, irish times reading, dinner party liberals must be disgusted that all the fordiners we let in are turning this place even more religious and socially conservative.

De bleedin saps.

MagicMarker

Dudess wrote: »

I think if a person is all-round decent and makes some effort to go to mass but has sex before marriage and uses contraception, it's reasonable to call themselves catholic. It's the church that needs to move with the times IMO.

Why? The church has rules as outlined by God, it's not a social club we're talking about here. We're talking about God's infallibility and your eternal resting place. I would say that the rules God has given us should be taken pretty seriously if you're a catholic, and not to be dismissed as being old fashioned.

If you don't believe in what the catholic church preaches then you simply cannot be a catholic. You can call yourself one, but you're not. I eat meat, but I can still call myself a vegetarian, but that doesn't make it true.

Toby Take a Bow

krudler wrote: »

well to be fair thats like society changing a law just because people dont like it and dont think it should apply to them. (I cant believe I'm defending the church, look what you've reduced me to!) I have more respect for people with actual conviction in their beliefs than pic n mix ones. I do agree that theres way too much contradiction in the church, but hey, shows it up for the silly organisation it is.

The church has altered its teaching, though, many times. So it's not beyond possibility that we see a different church emerging in the next couple of decades.

Craebear

Atheists are literally hitler

mcmoustache

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Not all Protestants are of the liberal/meh COI type. There are a couple of evangelical protestant churches in my area and they look pretty hardcore (religious hardcore).

The only people with whom I bother having a religious discussion with in real life are both evangelicals. Ok, it's not a good sample size by which to judge all evangelicals but the evangelicals on boards seem to suggest that my generalisations here aren't too far off the mark.

The reason that I like to discuss religion with them is that they actually know their stuff when it comes to the bible and are always happy to discuss it - even though they know I don't share their beliefs. The ones I've come across aren't bible literalists - they just take the new testament seriously. When you think about it, this is the logical thing to do if you believe that Jesus was the son of God and that the bible was inspired by him.

I avoid mentioning my religion with most people who consider themselves Catholic however. They tend to know very little about their faith and get defensive and insecure when you ask them some simple questions about it. Then, that's to be expected if you're only talking to a plastic Catholic. A complete contrast to the evangelicals that I've had the pleasure to know.

To be fair, I should point out that a lot of Catholics know their stuff too and aren't too bad to speak to but their numbers a dwarfed by fake wannabe Catholics.

KeithAFC

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

I think all Protestant groups showed an increase (some very, very healthy increases) but I think Methodists showed a marked decline.

Yeah, interesting stats. Could prove that people are turning away from Rome and becoming Protestants. I was surprised at the lack of numbers in terms non religion. Would have thought it would have been higher.

Chuck Stone

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Agnostic/atheist
Aunicornist?

MagicMarker wrote: »

Err, yes. Only we have a word to describe people for option 1 and not for option 2. So what?

...and the clear and obvious answer is yes, you lack a belief in Unicorns. (I can't quite believe you actually needed that pointed out to you tbh)

You just need to have faith in me. :pac:

My 'lack' (de-indoctrination in my case) of belief in god(s) gets its very own special connotative label whether I like it or not but my 'lack' of belief in every other non-existent thing in the universe gets trivialised - why is that?

Here's the thing. I dislike people, especially people who believe in that which they cannot prove, being able to lump me in a group of people who have been stereotyped by them (plenty of evidence in this thread of that).

Should I be allowed to say I don't believe in god(s) and reject the atheist label?

I think I should.

krudler

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

The church has altered its teaching, though, many times. So it's not beyond possibility that we see a different church emerging in the next couple of decades.

sure thats even worse.

"lads it seems people actually dont mind the gheys, maybe we should stop calling them evil?"

If people were part of sports club or society with a record of as much hatred, corruption, child abuse, rape, industrial abuse, misogny, bigotry and downright scumbag acts as the catholic church has, how many people would still call themselves members?

Born to Die

I think what a lot of atheists have a problem with is ála carte Catholicism, (besides their problem in believing of the existence of a deity) which is fair enough, I myself am a Christian, reared a Roman Catholic and have problems with a lot of dated views set out by the catholic church. I prefer to refer to myself as a Christian and this is where the problem with the census figures starts, for Catholic read Christian and the figures make more sense.

Having read Dawkins, I can see the logical argument set out but it still doesn't dismiss faith.

Toby Take a Bow

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yeah, interesting stats. Could prove that people are turning away from Rome and becoming Protestants. I was surprised at the lack of numbers in terms non religion. Would have thought it would have been higher.

I'd say it's more likely that the figures are due to immigration from places with (relatively) high numbers of religious groups that we had (relatively) few of to begin with.

Catholic figures were up, but percentage it was down. Again, immigration could have played a factor here, but I'd say any turn away from the Church would've been to the non religious category (which showed the strongest increase percentage wise in 'religious' groups, if I'm not mistaken).

Chuck Stone

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

See, that's the kind of thing that makes no sense to me. I'm an Atheist (former Agnostic) but I never tell anyone they have an inferiority complex because of their beliefs. I actually love chatting to religious folk about religion because i am an Atheist with a big interest in Theology.

That's the problem with identifying as an atheist imho. You immediately get pigeon-holed as an angry froth-mouthed anti-religion person who's encroaching on religious people's freedoms when the reality is more the opposite.

krudler

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's the problem with identifying as an atheist imho. You immediately get pigeon-holed as an angry froth-mouthed anti-religion person who's encroaching on religious people's freedoms when the reality is more the opposite.

but all atheists are keyboard warriors who masturbate furiously to Dawkins lectures, don you know this?

Dimithy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Should I be allowed to say I don't believe in god(s) and reject the atheist label?

I think I should.

Who said you couldn't?











You're still an atheist though...