An open apology to the 84% of devout Catholics

MagicMarker

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You just need to have faith in me. :pac:

My 'lack' (de-indoctrination in my case) of belief in god(s) gets it's very own special connotative label whether I like it or not but my 'lack' of belief in every other non-existent thing in the universe gets trivialised - why is that?

Here's the thing. I dislike people, especially people who believe in that which they cannot prove, being able to lump me in a group of people who have been stereotyped by them (plenty of evidence in this thread of that).

Should I be allowed to say I don't believe in god(s) and reject the atheist label?

I think I should.

You can do what you want, but that doesn't change facts.

''Atheist'' is a noun, a word used to identify any of a class of people, places or things. Atheists are a class of people who lack belief in a god or gods.

Simply put, you are an atheist, like it or not.

RMD

St.Spodo wrote: »

I'd agree with the last sentence but there's a difference between thinking you're better than someone and thinking your beliefs are better founded, more sophisticated and more rational. It's not snobbery or smugness to think that religious belief defies reason and science, and should be open to ridicule.

I agree that religion is a ridiculous concept and defies logic but that's my opinion. It doesn't mean I have a reason to ridicule others' beliefs which provide them with comfort and happiness. If they choose to believe then they don't see what we see as a logical argument. There's little to no point in arguing with them about it or ridiculing their beliefs as you're doing nothing more than insulting something which makes them happy.

If they don't see eye to eye with my (IMO logical) beliefs that's fine, but I'm not going to ridicule them or their beliefs for holding their own opinion.

KeithAFC

krudler wrote: »

but all atheists are keyboard warriors who masturbate furiously to Dawkins lectures, don you know this?

Dawkins is one of the problems. Instead of promoting secularism and sticking to evolutionary biology, he turns everything into a god debate. Very tiresome.

mcmoustache

Dudess wrote: »

I think if a person is all-round decent and makes some effort to go to mass but has sex before marriage and uses contraception, it's reasonable to call themselves catholic. It's the church that needs to move with the times IMO.

I know that MagicMarker has sort of addressed this already but:

I think that the Roman Church is the only entity that can decide what needs to be fulfilled to be a member of it. As much as I love bashing the Roman Church (I really do ), they have every right to declare what is and isn't a Catholic.

If a person believes in God, Jesus and all that but doesn't follow Catholic teachings, while they can call themselves I don't see how they can be considered Catholics. If they really need to be Catholic, they would need to split somehow, possibly in Protest .

partyatmygaff

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So medical science uses the word alcoholic in clinical fashion?

Considering

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.elib.tcd.ie/pubmed/20206879
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.elib.tcd.ie/pubmed/17040107

and the many other thousands of articles with the word "Alcoholic/Alcoholics" indexed on PubMed i'd have to say yes.

As for the definition... here is one by the American Medical Association:
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/alcoholism

Chuck Stone

MagicMarker wrote: »

''Atheist'' is a noun, a word used to identify any of a class of people, places or things. Atheists are a class of people who lack belief in a god or gods.

Simply put, you are an atheist, like it or not.

'Lack belief' in that which cannot be proved?

Doesn't that sound preposterous to you?

Born to Die

Does being an atheist make it easier to live a fulfilled life, are the boundaries that my beliefs place on me making my life less fulfilling or is it a pre-set knowledge of right and wrong that keeps me from carrying out acts that would be seen as evil?

Is it easier for atheists to stray away from what is deemed as good?

Just thinking aloud.

Chuck Stone

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Considering

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.elib.tcd.ie/pubmed/20206879
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.elib.tcd.ie/pubmed/17040107

No accces.

I'd be interested to see an agreed upon clinical definition of 'alcoholic'.

mcmoustache

Born to Die wrote: »

I think what a lot of atheists have a problem with is ála carte Catholicism, (besides their problem in believing of the existence of a deity) which is fair enough, I myself am a Christian, reared a Roman Catholic and have problems with a lot of dated views set out by the catholic church. I prefer to refer to myself as a Christian and this is where the problem with the census figures starts, for Catholic read Christian and the figures make more sense.

Exactly.

You believe in God, Jesus and other Christian teachings but don't believe in Catholic teachings. You're obviously a Christian and I don't see how you could be considered Catholic. I wish more Catholics would be more honest with themselves.

partyatmygaff

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No accces.

I'd be interested to see an agreed upon clinical definition of 'alcoholic'.

Apologies, I was browsing PubMed using my college account. Here are some publicly accessible links.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206879
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17040107
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=DetailsSearch&term=alcoholics&save_search=true

As for the definition... here is one by the American Medical Association:
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/alcoholism

mcmoustache

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yeah, interesting stats. Could prove that people are turning away from Rome and becoming Protestants. I was surprised at the lack of numbers in terms non religion. Would have thought it would have been higher.

Most people down here ARE protestants. But for some historical and patriotic reasons they'll never admit to it.

krudler

mcmoustache wrote: »

Exactly.

You believe in God, Jesus and other Christian teachings but don't believe in Catholic teachings. You're obviously a Christian and I don't see how you could be considered Catholic. I wish more Catholics would be more honest with themselves.

the census shows that a lot clearly aren't.

Chuck Stone

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Apologies, I was browsing PubMed using my college account. Here are some publicly accessible links.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206879
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17040107
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=DetailsSearch&term=alcoholics&save_search=true

I'll need some time to go through them to see how they define 'alcoholic'. It's the definition I'm interested in.

Thanks anyway.

endacl

LimGal wrote: »

How does that saying go again......''there is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole''!!:rolleyes:

Because we educated ourselves out of the cannon fodder role.... eyes rolled back atcha!

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Dawkins is one of the problems. Instead of promoting secularism and sticking to evolutionary biology, he turns everything into a god debate. Very tiresome.

I agree, i read The Blind Watchmaker about 15 years ago and was very impressed by him. One of the best books i have ever read. Now he has become a bore.

partyatmygaff

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'll need some time to go through them to see how they define 'alcoholic'. It's the definition I'm interested in.

Thanks anyway.

Here it is by the American Medical Association:
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/alcoholism

The Big Red Button

The way I see it is: I have no problem with what anyone believes. I do, however, have a problem if the country's laws are influenced by the religious beliefs of the majority. I have a problem if children are discriminated against because they're less likely to get into local public schools because of their religion (or lack thereof.)

It's frustrating to see that 84% of people ended up being marked down as Catholic, when I think most of us know that those figures aren't entirely accurate. I would have no problem with 99% of the country being Catholic - if the remaining 1% were treated appropriately when it comes to education, etc. If the Census results were more accurate, it may have increased the resources available for non-Catholic children (more non-religious schools, more rights and awareness for non-Catholic children in Catholic schools, etc.)

woodoo wrote: »

I'm really happy that 84% put down the are Catholic. If it annoys the ultra atheists then i'm all for it. Their smugness is soul (;)) destroying.

I'm agnostic BTW. I just don't know if there is a GOD or not.

What is an "ultra atheist", as a matter of interest? Someone who extra-very-super doesn't believe in mythical beings?

St.Spodo wrote: »

I didn't personally complete the census. Ergo, I was marked in as a catholic, I assume. I'm an atheist. I've spoken to five or six others in the same boat. The results are badly skewed, of that I am certain.

I have seen so many posts like yours recently. There were quite a few threads here around at the time of the Census, begging people to make sure they weren't incorrectly counted as Catholic. I saw several articles online and in the papers also. And it still seems to have happened that way in a huge amount of households!

I don't know, there's not really much point in being indignant about being "marked in" wrong, now. I guess hopefully you'll make sure that you're counted correctly next time around.

Born to Die

mcmoustache wrote: »

Exactly.

You believe in God, Jesus and other Christian teachings but don't believe in Catholic teachings. You're obviously a Christian and I don't see how you could be considered Catholic. I wish more Catholics would be more honest with themselves.

I may not be a Catholic but I am fcuked if I am a Protestant :eek::pac:

marty1985

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You just need to have faith in me. :pac:

My 'lack' (de-indoctrination in my case) of belief in god(s) gets it's very own special connotative label whether I like it or not but my 'lack' of belief in every other non-existent thing in the universe gets trivialised - why is that?

Here's the thing. I dislike people, especially people who believe in that which they cannot prove, being able to lump me in a group of people who have been stereotyped by them (plenty of evidence in this thread of that).

Should I be allowed to say I don't believe in god(s) and reject the atheist label?

I think I should.

You can always be an agnostic.

The term agnostic was designed for this purpose. It was never intended to be an adjective or a prefix. Anthony Flew wrote a book called The Presumption Of Atheism where he outlined the need to redefine atheism as a passive lack of belief - which it had never been historically. It has generally been an active disbelief, denial, a positive denial - and dictionaries still go with this meaning. Dictionaries exist to reflect the common usage, and yes words change over time, which is why atheists will say at this point that dictionaries don't matter. Others might find that a bit of a stretch, and I would agree.

woodoo

Born to Die wrote: »

I may not be a Catholic but I am fcuked if I am a Protestant :eek::pac:

But that's for reasons other than religious belief. If you were reared in America or Australia etc you may look at things differently. Here it would be viewed as being a turncoat by many. Politics more than anything.

mcmoustache

Born to Die wrote: »

I may not be a Catholic but I am fcuked if I am a Protestant :eek::pac:

Russian Orthodox it is then.

*Marks Clipboard*

RMD

mcmoustache wrote: »

Most people down here ARE protestants. But for some historical and patriotic reasons they'll never admit to it.

That's the problem, many people are tired of or unhappy with the Catholic church yet the stigma that involves becoming a Protestant in Ireland isn't worth the hassle. Some idiots still seem to hold a view to be Irish you must be a Catholic, if you wish to convert to Protestantism all of a sudden you're some dirty Loyalist West Brit. Further evidence religion should have no place in politics and visa versa.

woodoo

RMD wrote: »

That's the problem, many people are tired of or unhappy with the Catholic church yet the stigma that involves becoming a Protestant in Ireland isn't worth the hassle. Some idiots still seem to hold a view to be Irish you must be a Catholic, if you wish to convert to Protestantism all of a sudden you're some dirty Loyalist West Brit. Further evidence religion should have no place in politics and visa versa.

That idea that Irish = catholic hopefully will disappear pretty soon.

Chuck Stone

marty1985 wrote: »

You can always be an agnostic.

Can I not just be a person who doesn't believe in gods?


Please..


Good post btw. Sorts out some things for me.

shizz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Can I not just be a person who doesn't believe in gods?


Please..


Good post btw. Sorts out some things for me.

sooo atheist then? :pac:

Born to Die

woodoo wrote: »

But that's for reasons other than religious belief. If you were reared in America or Australia etc you may look at things differently. Here it would be viewed as being a turncoat by many. Politics more than anything.

Having lived in America I have experienced Christianity in it's many diluted forms.
Leaving religion aside my politics are very much Nationalist and that won't change even if the atheists get me.

Anyway I am off to bed, God bless all and remember take care of each other, Boards isn't the worst place in the world to wile away a few hours so don't be getting all hot and bothered about this repetitive subject and give those moderators any reason to exclude you.

To the atheists I will just say Goodnight.

Father Damo

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Educated by the knowledge contained in the census I would like to apologise for forcing my atheist beliefs on you these past few years.
I confess to thinking that those who were religious as enlightened as a 12 year old believing in Santa but the sheer weight of your lobby has destroyed my argument.
Had I known I represented such a miniscule minority I would have never questioned your church, I'm sorry.

This week the pews will heave with the mass of 3.6 million people professing their faith.
Standing room only as the cars stand triple parked outside.
I ask only as one thing of you true disciples of God . . . . . forgive me.

Mate. Athiests who harp on about it are boring beyond belief.

Nobody gives a sh1t.

Do I go to mass? No. Why? Because I am too lazy and hungover to be doing that on a Sunday morning. Also, the pretty much non existance of any type of religious education in Irish catholic run national and secondary schools means I have absoloutely no idea what the whole thing is about.

But I am a Catholic. I love a christening and wedding piss up as much as anyone. While I might not have an idea about any of it back in the days of penal law alot of people risked their lives for said beliefs. I have no idea as to the relevance of said beliefs, but I do respect it.


You also fail to see that if Ireland never had a deeply engrained to the point of nonsense Catholic culture, the inspiration that caused two lads to come up with Father Ted would never have happened.

Chuck Stone

Father Damo wrote: »

Mate. Athiests who harp on about it are boring beyond belief.

Nobody gives a sh1t.

Do I go to mass? No. Why? Because I am too lazy and hungover to be doing that on a Sunday morning. Also, the pretty much non existance of any type of religious education in Irish catholic run national and secondary schools means I have absoloutely no idea what the whole thing is about.

But I am a Catholic. I love a christening and wedding piss up as much as anyone. While I might not have an idea about any of it back in the days of penal law alot of people risked their lives for said beliefs. I have no idea as to the relevance of said beliefs, but I do respect it.

That makes you a blashpemagnosticatheist.

You must accept this simple fact or you will go to hell.

KeithAFC

Born to Die wrote: »

I may not be a Catholic but I am fcuked if I am a Protestant :eek::pac:

Chucky ar la. :pac:

Back to the main debate, I think it is important if future Census forms give more options in terms of the religious option.

Chuck Stone

shizz wrote: »

sooo atheist then? :pac:

I don't believe in god(s) but I think there might be stuff happening in other dimensions we cant detect. I'm open to the idea of there being an afterlife because I think it's a nice idea and I can't get to grips with ceasing to exist but I know it's wishful thinking - perhaps even egotistical.

I salute a single magpie when I see one just because. I have to turn over the channel before the whistley ending bit of the Eastenders tune or I'll die in my sleep.


You tell me? :pac: