Schools want to drop LC physics, chemistry, economics

Duggys Housemate

Another thing worth mentioning here is that Irish kids do up to 7 subjects at the leaving, unlike the English 3 A levels. We have more slots to fill. Irish does not preclude a foreign language, for that reason.

texidub

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Ignoring the laughable "anti-Irish" rant against Irish speakers, let me repeat. It is an official language. So is English. If you want to remove it from the curriculum it would face a constitutional challenge, either English and Irish - both official languages - would be made non-compulsory, or one would be. I am pretty sure that the Supreme court would make that ruling. Both languages have equal constitutional status.

If the anti-Irish language activists want "cultural freedom" they would remove the constitutional mention of two languages, and Polish would take pride of place in certain schools. That would be madness for any nation, certainly the French wouldn't do it.

However, no point whining on the internet. Set up an outside campaign to make Irish non-compulsory, and then lead the constitutional referendum. While you may get support on the first one, it would evaporate come a referendum.

I don't want to take it out of schools. I support removal of its compulsory status. So the rest of your post just highlights how ghettoized and insecure your anti-Irish, Gaelic-based culture really is.

Dostoevsky

texidub wrote: »

Irish language lobbyists prove yet again that they don't give a f*ck about the opinions, free will and future of the Irish people as long as their precious language remains compulsory.

Ardent Irish language lobbyists are one of the most anti-Irish sections of the Irish population. They want to force their minority, crippled tongue on a disinterested majority.

They have undue influence in the Irish establishment, across media, education and politics (enabled by the State, originally in an attempt to forge a new Irish identity as we threw off the shackles of British imperialism.)

Guess what you anti-Irish Irish language lobbyists (and the State)? You don't *own* Irish identity. The Irish people ALREADY HAVE an identity, based on shared historical experience. And we already have a language to communicate with each other.

Irish language lobbyists strive to refashion Ireland in their own image. Their aims and goals are directly opposed to those of the majority of the people of Ireland. Is that what we want in our schools? We live in a democracy.

Understand the depth of anti-Irishness among Irish language lobbyists and their intransigence makes sense. They are like northern Unionists --they know they are on to a loser but they keep holding on to their similarly culturally fascistic worldview.

Underestimate their lack of loyalty to Ireland and the majority Irish people at your peril. These people are dangerous, anti-Irish zealots living in another century. And it's all dressed up in some faux patriotism.. when English is even the de facto language of Irish republicanism. They are dangerous idiots.

Where are the great Irish novels that are translated and sold in millions around the globe? Where are the irish language scientific papers respected around the world? What exactly has Irish done to bring glory and respect to Ireland? Nothing. It is a crippled tongue, for culturally crippled people.

They just want to drag Irish schoolchildren into the same cultural abyss that they are in.

But it's not for any one of us to decide what should and shouldn't be taught (within reason). So, I wouldn't ban it altogether.

Make Irish voluntary.

We shouldn't allow these people to eat away at Irish culture from the inside. They should be happy with voluntary Irish.. and it might even bring a rise in the numbers taking it. (I would hope so, for their sake, as it would teach them that cultural totalitarianism doesn't work.. something they have yet to learn.)

texidub wrote: »

ha yes.. that was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was that making Irish voluntary might increase the proportion of Irish language students who actually enjoy the language.

Yes, you can laugh away because it is compulsory for the time being, and you and your ilk can continue to force your crippled language on the rest of the country. I don't expect you to give up.. just as I don't expect the other enemies of Irish culture (northern Unionists) to give up their cause. But just as I don't want Unionism forced down my throat. I don't want your language forced down my throat either... or down the throats of Irish children.

I've no bone to pick with the GAA. Most GAA players have about as much Irish as your Moldovans.

texidub wrote: »

The Minister for Education has his eyes on the Irish language lobbyists (and about time too).

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0405/1224314388617.html



Teachers have made a killing pushing this crippled language down the throats of Irish children... but for how long?

texidub wrote: »

National in name only. It is about as national as croquet.

Historically, lots of things preceded other things, should we teach them all too? It's called evolution and change.

I am not talking about removing the status of Irish... as someone who respects cultural freedom --something the Irish language lobbyists should consider from time to time-- I wouldn't actively seek to have the language downgraded out of existence.

In essence, if a handful of anti-Irish people want to live their lives through Gaelic --a language foreign to the majority of Irish people-- that's fine with me.

Just remove the compulsory status and we can start having a conversation on a level playing field.

texidub wrote: »

I don't want to take it out of schools. I support removal of its compulsory status. So the rest of your post just highlights how ghettoized and insecure your anti-Irish, Gaelic-based culture really is.

Ignorance and lack of education aside but Christ almighty, that's some hatred for one human being to be carrying in this short life. It's genuinely sad.

Zab

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

. I am pretty sure that the Supreme court would make that ruling. Both languages have equal constitutional status.

Well, they don't have equal constitutional status, Irish is elevated. What makes you so sure about the Supreme Court ruling? I can't say I really have a clue myself, I'm just wondering if you have more information than me.

texidub

Ah yes, I must be filled with hate if I don't support compulsory Irish.

I must be filled with hate if I would prefer Irish children and parents to have more rights when it comes to subject choice.

I must be filled with hate when react to being constantly bombarded by a tiny but vocal minority of Irish people who have a different vision of Irishness to the rest of us.

Nice try, but not at all accurate. I'm really just killing time and the topic interests me.

What stirs real emotion is the fact that a vocal minority wants to get in the face of Irish children and compell them to learn something that all the evidence shows they won't use and don't want to learn.

How hateful is that?

micropig

The most Irish I learned was in the Gaeltacht. Schools should be turned in to mini Gaeltachts for the summers. Run by primary school teachers, aren't they all fluent?

Language and science courses could be run by the secondary school teachers, for a few weeks


@texidub You just bitter!! :P

texidub

Ah here micropig, don't forget twisted!

Powerhouse

languagenerd wrote: »

1) Actually, I think it is relevant, because no-one has actually set the exam in the new course yet, so what I was talking about is what everyone who's done the LC in recent years has done.


2) I'm not arguing that Irish should be gotten rid of (on the contrary, I'm very much for it remaining compulsory!),

3) but you can't deny that the course has historically been literature-based,

1) Of course it's not relevant. I commented on the contents of the course (by definition present tense) so what happened before is irrelevant. Now if you want to discuss the history of the course then I'm sure you'll find somneone to do it with, but I made no reference to that.

The only thing I will say about the history of the course by way of clarification is that the new JC is now in its third year - the first group to do it are now sitting the Leaving Cert so to say nobody has sat the new course is at best splitting hairs and at worst simply inaccurate.

2) For the record, I never commented on whether Irish should or shouldn't be compulsory so you don't need to comment on that to me. All I have argued is that anyone who thinks that replacing four Irish classes a week with some other subject that students are not currently inclined to take up is going to suddenly change Ireland into some kind of international Chinese-speaking-computer-programming mover and shaker is delusional.

By all means let people argue against compulsory Irish but they need to be careful not to put greater weight of expectation on its removal than it can reasonably be expected to bear. Let's not forget that many students cannot grasp Irish - they are unlikely to turn in Isacc Newton simply because they get to do another Maths-type subject instead. All people need to do is look at the Maths/Science results currently. Irish kids are not particularly good at those subjects, yet people want them to be doing more of those type of subjects?

I repeat - I never commented on the status of Irish in schools one way or the other.

3) Why are you saying I can't deny that? Why would I want to deny that? That's a simple fact. What I am saying is that that is no longer the case (present tense). That is not tantamount to a denial of any historical truth, nor should the two be confused.

RMD

Powerhouse wrote: »

Incidentally, the percentage getting As and Bs in Higher Level Leaving Cert Irish is far higher than the equivalent in French. (And no part of the Irish paper can be answered in English unlike the Frnech equivalent) The situation may be different for weaker students but the experience of your class cannot be generalised if that is what you are insinuating.

I don't want to sound like some conspiracy theory nut but think about it. The department of education has in essence already decided the level of A's, B's, C's that will be awarded due to the bell curve scheme system. The improve the level of people taking it higher level they offer indirect incentives such as a higher % of good grades. Combine this with the number of students in Gael scoils who will essentially be guaranteed a B / A with their level in the language and the figures then aren't exactly as they seem.

Call it a generalisation if you wish, but it's what I saw across the board in ordinary students who (other than those who dropped in the final weeks) in my year and the other schools around me.

noxqs

Children learning Economics is DETRIMENTAL to the property bubble effort which will pull the vested interests out of negative equity. We need to stand behind this so that we may blow up more bubbles in the future.

The Irish economy is built on bubbles. We can't have children who wont sign up for 110% mortgages.

guitarzero

I say go back to the way the Greeks did it. You hold discussion in the local Theatre/Temple, whoever wants to show up will do so according to what you deliver and how well you teach it.

Powerhouse

texidub wrote: »

I don't want your language forced down my throat either... or down the throats of Irish children.

This is the language of deep-seated cultural paranoia. As long as students come into my class, shut the f*ck up, don't assault each other (they can assault me as long as they first accept my invitation to go onto the corridor where the camera is), draw too many penises on the wall, don't shout f*ck off at each other too loudly so as to distract the class, and allow those genuinely interested to learn I am happy.

I have no interest in forcing anything down their throats. Why would I be bothered and where would I get the energy, even if it were possible? There are guys in my school who have looked to move to my class because they know I won't hassle them for homework or to bring in books as long as they don't act the b*llox too much - the one thing I do occasionally say to them is not to go around in 10 years time claiming (a) that they were forced to learn Irish, or (b) that they don;t have a word of it because of their teacher. They willingly accept their responsibility for this to my face anyway, whether they will have the balls to be similiarly self-critical in the future remains to be seen.

You are aiming your vitriol at the wrong person on this occasion.

Powerhouse

RMD wrote: »

I don't want to sound like some conspiracy theory nut but think about it. The department of education has in essence already decided the level of A's, B's, C's that will be awarded due to the bell curve scheme system.

I just take figures at face value. I don't get into mind games after that. But if you don't want to accept the figures as they stand fair enough. I supposed there's probably always another argument that can be made if stastistics are unpalatable.

Duggys Housemate

texidub wrote: »

I don't want to take it out of schools. I support removal of its compulsory status. So the rest of your post just highlights how ghettoized and insecure your anti-Irish, Gaelic-based culture really is.

The rest of my post mentioned the constitutional issue of removing Irish from the curriculum. I am not a fan of a "Gaelic-based culture", but a dual culture, and in fact previously in the thread recommend making Irish non-compulsory ( because I think it would grow in stature), were it not for the legal issues.

My post, which you were unable to read, or understand dealt with the legal issues with it's compulsory status ( so maybe some remedial English for you instead?)

Zab wrote: »

Well, they don't have equal constitutional status, Irish is elevated. What makes you so sure about the Supreme Court ruling? I can't say I really have a clue myself, I'm just wondering if you have more information than me.

Not really, but I can easily see a challenge. The official position of a language means that documents must be produced in that language. I cant imagine the legislature can make Irish non-compulsory while allowing English to be compulsory. They can possibly make both non-compulsory.

texidub wrote: »

Ah yes, I must be filled with hate if I don't support compulsory Irish.

I must be filled with hate if I would prefer Irish children and parents to have more rights when it comes to subject choice.

You only care for those rights with regard to Irish. Not, say to English. Or Maths, which seems a bit odd.

texidub wrote: »

I must be filled with hate when react to being constantly bombarded by a tiny but vocal minority of Irish people who have a different vision of Irishness to the rest of us.

The "constant" bombarding? I think you could spend your whole life in Ireland without listening to a "gaelgoir", you have the entire hegemonic anglophone system on your side, the constant bombarding works the other way.

If you are so certain that you can win a campaign then go ahead, get off the keyboard and start a campaign group. You probably need to learn to read English, understand the legal issues, tone down the language, and get a referendum passed on the status of Irish. With that kinda personality you cant but succeed.

Powerhouse wrote: »

This is the language of deep-seated cultural paranoia..

Listen here you galegoir don't be forcing your totalitarian ideas of learning on people. And that goes to MATHS AND ENGLISH TEACHERS too!

There is no paranoia in those posts.

Sar_Bear

I did leaving cert economics and went on to study economics in college, where they started from scratch, so it felt like 2 years wasted in Leaving Cert.

alphabeat

this is an irish solution to an irish problem

byhookorbycrook

texidub wrote: »

Teachers have made a killing pushing this crippled language down the throats of Irish children... but for how long?

Errrrrrrr, teachers have made a killing by teaching Irish??How do you mean??