Dimitris Christoulas, at 9am took his own life in the middle of Athens

Noreen1

hmmm wrote: »

What exactly do the Greeks want? Tax evasion is a national sport, there are hundreds of thousands of civil servants with little to do, and they pay themselves too much, all financed by borrowings. Now that Greece has defaulted borrowers aren't willing to lend any more, so the Greeks are forced to crawl off to the rest of Europe and beg for a bailout, all the while moaning about how they are being forced to accept "austerity" as a consequence.

I'm sorry for the man, but the only "traitors" in Greece are the electorate who vote in politicians who bribe the electorate with borrowed money - much like our own electorate.

And this is an elderly gentlemans fault? How???

Did you miss the part where he said he, and he alone paid for his pension?

Potatoeman wrote: »

Did he work for the state? How did they take his pension?
I saw a report about an elderly Greek gentleman that didn't have enough pension money to pay for his medical prescriptions.:( He was working selling groceries on the motorway to make ends meet and still not making enough to pay his bills. It’s sad but he was part of the problem as he was fuelling the black-market over there. They need massive social change (here too of a different kind) to get things on track.
We are relatively lucky here no one is starving. Being in debt is not the same as not being able to feed yourself.

He was part of the problem because he is now supplementing his pension by selling groceries, because he can't afford to buy food and pay his medical bills? How does that work?

I honestly can not believe the lengths that people will go to to justify the austerity measures.

The truth is, the Greek Government made choices, the elite made choices and the poor people suffer the consequences.

I cannot understand the lack of empathy.
These are two elderly gentlemen. One committed suicide rather than survive by rummaging in bins for food. The other is doing his best to survive by trying to supplement his income.

What the hell is the world coming to when such people are blamed for the financial crisis? Where is the evidence that proves they are responsible for the financial crisis?

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence of irresponsible lending, irresponsible financial planning by Governments - yet it's all the fault of two elderly Gentlemen who have fallen on hard times?

Jesus H. Christ! I despair for humanity sometimes!:mad:

mezdupmaiden

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

Would have been more effective to have put a bullet through one of the politicians heads, that might have sent a more productive message.

I don't understand how you can hear and read about innocent people gunned down for no reason in this country and no-one's had the balls to go shoot the likes of those bastards Ahern or Flynn?!

Wouldnt I bloody love to. but I'd prefer to hit them where it hurts, the pocket, you kill them one of their beloved offspring would get the money..disclaimer...that they never had btw.


Ive clearly thought too hard about this:o

The Waltzing Consumer

Noreen1 wrote: »

And this is an elderly gentlemans fault? How???

Did you miss the part where he said he, and he alone paid for his pension?

I don't think that will be true. Greece had a really messed up pension system for years where people could retire at 50 or 55 depending on gender on a full pension PAID BY THE STATE. This covers 40% of their countries workforce.

So imagine hundreds of thousands of people retiring at 50 or 55, living longer lives now then ever before and getting their full work pension paid by the state.

Messed up

NIMAN

Sad story but it will have zero effect.

humanji

Noreen1 wrote: »

And this is an elderly gentlemans fault? How???

Did you miss the part where he said he, and he alone paid for his pension?



He was part of the problem because he is now supplementing his pension by selling groceries, because he can't afford to buy food and pay his medical bills? How does that work?

I honestly can not believe the lengths that people will go to to justify the austerity measures.

The truth is, the Greek Government made choices, the elite made choices and the poor people suffer the consequences.

I cannot understand the lack of empathy.
These are two elderly gentlemen. One committed suicide rather than survive by rummaging in bins for food. The other is doing his best to survive by trying to supplement his income.

What the hell is the world coming to when such people are blamed for the financial crisis? Where is the evidence that proves they are responsible for the financial crisis?

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence of irresponsible lending, irresponsible financial planning by Governments - yet it's all the fault of two elderly Gentlemen who have fallen on hard times?

Jesus H. Christ! I despair for humanity sometimes!:mad:

A little over the top, aren't you? People are pointing out that the ENTIRE country of Greece had a part to play, not just two old men. I'm sure the two old men were eligable voters. Who did they put into power? Even little things like that play a part.

As for the comment on the black-market, you must know the phrase "Take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves"? If everyone made what little money they could from illegal means, then there'd be no money going back into the country. Potatoeman was merely pointing this out. The next line he wrote, you completely ignored: "They need massive social change...". He wasn't saying it is only this man who is to blame, he's saying that the entire system needs to be rebuilt.

Highly emotive statements like "The truth is, the Greek Government made choices, the elite made choices and the poor people suffer the consequences." is making it seem like all the people of Greece who isn't a fictional "Elite" are completely innocent of any blame.

Potatoeman

Noreen1 wrote: »

He was part of the problem because he is now supplementing his pension by selling groceries, because he can't afford to buy food and pay his medical bills? How does that work?

I'm not blaming him it's the circumstance he's in and it's unlikely to change any time soon. It's a form of tax evasion and fuels the problem as it’s so widespread.

Pottler

hmmm wrote: »

What exactly do the Irish want? Tax evasion is a national sport, there are hundreds of thousands of civil servants with little to do, and they pay themselves too much, all financed by borrowings. When Ireland has defaulted borrowers won't be willing to lend any more, so the Irishs will be forced to crawl off to the rest of Europe and beg for another bailout, all the while moaning about how they are being forced to accept "austerity" as a consequence.

I'm sorry for the man, but the only "traitors" in Ireland are the electorate who vote in politicians who bribe the electorate with borrowed money - much like the Greek electorate.

FYP, it took a fair bit of fixing. Don't rant and gloat when yous in the same boat..just sitting further back.

Wibbs

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Anyone think that the day may come when this happens in Ireland?

As others have noted suicide because of financial pressures are happening here already. I know of two men who took their own lives because of the pressures they felt they couldn't cope with.

Benny_Cake

I think the point is that after nearly four years of austerity living standards in Greece have declined greatly, and all they have to look forward to is another decade of the same - and that's if everything goes to plan. Greeks could be forgiven for despairing at the thought, particularly young Greeks who have had nothing to do with the crisis. And people such as this man had nothing to look forward to but further pension cuts, and deeper poverty in his later years. Suicide is never the answer but despair is a terrible thing, my heart goes out to people in that situation.

Pottler

I believe that there is a lot of delusion and optimism wandering around Ireland at the moment. Businesses are failing like dominoes, unemployment is rising and rising despite the (absolute) b0ll0x figures issued by the govt. The rate of decline is rapidly increasing and we DO NOT have a rosy near future. We will be where Greece is and worse, in time. A man said to me the other day "Jasus Pottler, get work off NAMA, they don't have a clue and are waay overpaying and getting riddenfor absolutely everything - they're the only ones dishing out work at the moment". He's a big contractor btw. So, if NAMA is our great hope, hah. The real businesses here in Ireland are clinging by their teeth. Almost all of the indigenous pre-boom employers local to me have closed or are on the verge of closing. The future is not bright.

The Waltzing Consumer

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I think the point is that after nearly four years of austerity living standards in Greece have declined greatly, and all they have to look forward to is another decade of the same - and that's if everything goes to plan. Greeks could be forgiven for despairing at the thought, particularly young Greeks who have had nothing to do with the crisis. And people such as this man had nothing to look forward to but further pension cuts, and deeper poverty in his later years. Suicide is never the answer but despair is a terrible thing, my heart goes out to people in that situation.

After decades of spending billions they never had, getting nearly half their workforce to retire at full pensions at 50/55 fully paid by the state, making tax avoidance a national sport and having more allowances, top ups, gifts then most rock star's riders, and reelecting governments who cook the books and continue the "rock'n'roll" lifestyle for most of their population, what the hell do they expect?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_NPzgXWS6A

Great watch.

The Waltzing Consumer

Pottler wrote: »

I believe that there is a lot of delusion and optimism wandering around Ireland at the moment. Businesses are failing like dominoes, unemployment is rising and rising despite the (absolute) b0ll0x figures issued by the govt. The rate of decline is rapidly increasing and we DO NOT have a rosy near future. We will be where Greece is and worse, in time. A man said to me the other day "Jasus Pottler, get work off NAMA, they don't have a clue and are waay overpaying and getting riddenfor absolutely everything - they're the only ones dishing out work at the moment". He's a big contractor btw. So, if NAMA is our great hope, hah. The real businesses here in Ireland are clinging by their teeth. Almost all of the indigenous pre-boom employers local to me have closed or are on the verge of closing. The future is not bright.

People seem to nearly have some masochistic wish to be like Greece. It has not happened and it does not look likely that it will happen in Ireland. It is very weird that people nearly wish it.

mikom

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

Would have been more effective to have put a bullet through one of the politicians heads, that might have sent a more productive message.

That's not too far away I'd reckon.

Da Shins Kelly

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Anyone think that the day may come when this happens in Ireland?

Has happened. One man in my neighbourhood earlier this year, and there are many, many more. This Greek man is simply a public representative, the face (for want of a better word) of a problem at large. There are loads of people who have committed or are contemplating suicide because of the dire situations they've been put in as a result of the crisis. It's terribly, terribly sad that people don't see any way out.

RIP to this man, and I don't think there was anything cowardly or shameful about what he did. As someone said already, there are worse things than death, and if anything, it is the people who left an elderly man in a position where he had nothing and would have to scavange for food who should be ashamed.

Pottler

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

People seem to nearly have some masochistic wish to be like Greece. It has not happened and it does not look likely that it will happen in Ireland. It is very weird that people nearly wish it.

Whatever. Speak to some normal people, ask them how wonderful things are in Ireland at the moment. The rosy optimism is in short supply.

The Waltzing Consumer

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Has happened. One man in my neighbourhood earlier this year, and there are many, many more. This Greek man is simply a public representative, the face (for want of a better word) of a problem at large. There are loads of people who have committed or are contemplating suicide because of the dire situations they've been put in as a result of the crisis. It's terribly, terribly sad that people don't see any way out.

RIP to this man, and I don't think there was anything cowardly or shameful about what he did. As someone said already, there are worse things than death, and if anything, it is the people who left an elderly man in a position where he had nothing and would have to scavange for food who should be ashamed.

Ireland has a huge range of safety nets for people in welfare, housing, health, training, support, financial budgeting advice. Can you actually think of anything that is not provided free of charge? Let us not forget, a person has the ability to get in huge debt in a recession or not. So ignore the recession. What parts of a safety net does Ireland not provide that you can think of?

The Waltzing Consumer

Pottler wrote: »

Whatever. Speak to some normal people, ask them how wonderful things are in Ireland at the moment. The rosy optimism is in short supply.

Not really. I only ever encounter your type of pessism on the internet.

Pottler

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Ireland has a huge range of safety nets for people in welfare, housing, health, training, support, financial budgeting advice. Can you actually think of anything that is not provided free of charge? Let us not forget, a persona has the ability to get in huge debt in a recession or not. So ignore the recession. What parts of a safety net does Ireland not provide that you can think of?

Tell that to the former self-employed. Tell that to the lad I spoke to yesterday who had literally just been let go - mortgage, car loan, wife, new baby. He looked genuinely terrified at what was facing him and I've met an awful lot like him. Also, here's the news buster, social welfare will be cut, cut, cut. Stick around and come back in a year or two. You sound like all the bucks who used to tell me the boom would never end, Ireland was different, etc etc. Jasus, you're not a TD by any chance?

laoch na mona

hard to think its come to stuff like this

Pottler

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Not really. I only ever encounter your type of pessism on the internet.

Satellite broadband must be a godsend - hard to get eircom to run wires into ivory towers...

forfuxsake

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I think the point is that after nearly four years of austerity living standards in Greece have declined greatly, and all they have to look forward to is another decade of the same - and that's if everything goes to plan. Greeks could be forgiven for despairing at the thought, particularly young Greeks who have had nothing to do with the crisis. And people such as this man had nothing to look forward to but further pension cuts, and deeper poverty in his later years. Suicide is never the answer but despair is a terrible thing, my heart goes out to people in that situation.

unless the question is

'what is never the answer?'

Potatoeman

Pottler wrote: »

Tell that to the former self-employed. Tell that to the lad I spoke to yesterday who had literally just been let go - mortgage, car loan, wife, new baby. He looked genuinely terrified at what was facing him and I've met an awful lot like him. Also, here's the news buster, social welfare will be cut, cut, cut. Stick around and come back in a year or two. You sound like all the bucks who used to tell me the boom would never end, Ireland was different, etc etc. Jasus, you're not a TD by any chance?

He might lose his house and maybe his car but he wont starve and will very unlikely be homeless. He certainly won’t be picking through rubbish to survive as the Greek gentleman claimed.
The banks aren't repossessing houses unless people are paying nothing. Large mortgages are always going to be an issue if you lose your job though.

K-9

Bambi wrote: »

Funny how the greeks economy was apparently a basket case but it actually worked until they rail-roaded it into the eurozone.

Anyway its all their own fault, nothing to do with the single market; ein market, ein euro, ein volk as we like to say in Berlin.

Nothing is ever the Greeks, Irish, Portuguese etc. fault, is that record nor scratched by now? The Greek Government lied their way into the Euro which is just a continuation of a national past time it seems as regards tax. People elected them and were happy as the European money kept flowing, they'd still be blissfully unaware if the crisis hadn't happened.

Pottler wrote: »

Tell that to the former self-employed. Tell that to the lad I spoke to yesterday who had literally just been let go - mortgage, car loan, wife, new baby. He looked genuinely terrified at what was facing him and I've met an awful lot like him. Also, here's the news buster, social welfare will be cut, cut, cut. Stick around and come back in a year or two. You sound like all the bucks who used to tell me the boom would never end, Ireland was different, etc etc. Jasus, you're not a TD by any chance?

Ireland is just the same as it ever was, except for a few all to short years, just some aren't used to it.

My heart goes out to the poor man. Its tough enough for pensioners in Ireland and their incomes have barely been touched.

yore

Bambi wrote: »

Funny how the greeks economy was apparently a basket case but it actually worked until they rail-roaded it into the eurozone.

This is my first post. I've been following these, and similar, discussions online for a while. Some of the posts are interesting and some of them just annoy me! I will translate your sentence to this

"I don't really know what I am talking about. But if I don't know about it, then it obviously didn't happen"

Greece has been in a state of default over 50% of the time in it's modern history.

Reference : -> http://www.economics.harvard.edu/files/faculty/51_This_Time_Is_Different.pdf

Go to page 31. This is a famous academic paper. Feel free to read the rest of it too. It is an interesting read from what I can recall. It should serve as a good basic introduction to some of the topics which seem to be frequently commented on by the "experts" on here.

Pottler

Potatoeman wrote: »

He might lose his house and maybe his car but he wont starve and will very unlikely be homeless. He certainly won’t be picking through rubbish to survive as the Greek gentleman claimed.
The banks aren't repossessing houses unless people are paying nothing. Large mortgages are always going to be an issue if you lose your job though.

Hmmm. Wifes sister works for a bank, re-arranging mortgages and oh yeah, reposessing houses. She's strangely very busy. I will tell your man all is going to be well - he will be chuffed - he was one of 32 let go though -do I have to go round them all giving them the good news? Just to soften your cough though, I took on a guy(had his own business before with 40+ employees) a few weeks back and his wife came round on the qt and thanked me, she said the whole family had been very worried about him as he was suicidal at the loss of his business and having work had lifted him out of it. The real world is full of men like him - at the end of their tether due to financial pressures so please don't lecture me about how great things are here at the mo.

yore

yore wrote: »

This is my first post. I've been following these, and similar, discussions online for a while. Some of the posts are interesting and some of them just annoy me! I will translate your sentence to this

"I don't really know what I am talking about. But if I don't know about it, then it obviously didn't happen"

Greece has been in a state of default over 50% of the time in it's modern history.

Reference : -> http://www.economics.harvard.edu/files/faculty/51_This_Time_Is_Different.pdf

Go to page 31. This is a famous academic paper. Feel free to read the rest of it too. It is an interesting read from what I can recall. It should serve as a good basic introduction to some of the topics which seem to be frequently commented on by the "experts" on here.

And also, it is interesting to note that this paper was written before the current crisis. In fact the concluding remarks are

In particular, concluding that countries like Hungary and Greece will never default again because “this time is different due to the European Union” may prove a very short-lived truism.

washman3

K-9 wrote: »

Nothing is ever the Greeks, Irish, Portuguese etc. fault, is that record nor scratched by now? The Greek Government lied their way into the Euro which is just a continuation of a national past time it seems as regards tax. People elected them and were happy as the European money kept flowing, they'd still be blissfully unaware if the crisis hadn't happened.



Ireland is just the same as it ever was, except for a few all to short years, just some aren't used to it.

My heart goes out to the poor man. Its tough enough for pensioners in Ireland and their incomes have barely been touched.

The Greeks were aided and abetted by corrupt regulation in the EU.
Their books were "cooked" by none other than Goldman Sachs.
Their crisis,like that of other the other PIGS has been carefully manufactured/manipulated.
Irish pensioners have barely been touched,for the simple reason that they revolted immediately when the threat appeared.
Just to point out some true facts which you already very well know, but chose to ignore.!!

K-9

washman3 wrote: »

The Greeks were aided and abetted by corrupt regulation in the EU.
Their books were "cooked" by none other than Goldman Sachs.

Oh indeed, that still doesn't make the massive tax evasion disappear though washman3, does it, or are you choosing to ignore it?

Their crisis,like that of other the other PIGS has been carefully manufactured/manipulated.

I think they should be let go tbh.

Irish pensioners have barely been touched,for the simple reason that they revolted immediately when the threat appeared.
Just to point out some true facts which you already very well know, but chose to ignore.!!

And everybody revolts nobody will be touched, just to continue that logic!

I'd have huge sympathy for pensioners, myMam is one, Dad was one, not easy with huge nursing home charges at that time, and that's with the famed PS pension that so many are jealous of.

Noreen1

K-9 wrote: »

Oh indeed, that still doesn't make the massive tax evasion disappear though washman3, does it, or are you choosing to ignore it?



I think they should be let go tbh.



And everybody revolts nobody will be touched, just to continue that logic!

I'd have huge sympathy for pensioners, myMam is one, Dad was one, not easy with huge nursing home charges at that time, and that's with the famed PS pension that so many are jealous of.

Where is the proof that this gentleman was guilty of tax evasion, though?

Where, for that matter, is the proof that the majority of Greeks were guilty of tax evasion?

Would it not make sense to strip the assets of those who were guilty of tax evasion, rather than embark on austerity measures that condemn old men to rummaging in rubbish bins for food, or having to sell vegetables at the side of the road to pay for medicine?

What about the children who are fainting in school, because they haven't enough food?

Are they guilty of tax evasion, too?

reprazant

Noreen1 wrote: »

Where is the proof that this gentleman was guilty of tax evasion, though?

Where, for that matter, is the proof that the majority of Greeks were guilty of tax evasion?

Would it not make sense to strip the assets of those who were guilty of tax evasion, rather than embark on austerity measures that condemn old men to rummaging in rubbish bins for food, or having to sell vegetables at the side of the road to pay for medicine?

What about the children who are fainting in school, because they haven't enough food?

Are they guilty of tax evasion, too?

What are you talking about? The country is broke. Completely broke. It has no money at all. What do you want the Greek government to do? It has NOTHING.

Without austerity, where is the money going to come from? They have borrowed BILLIONS for Europe. Where are they going to pull that from?

Noreen1

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I don't think that will be true. Greece had a really messed up pension system for years where people could retire at 50 or 55 depending on gender on a full pension PAID BY THE STATE. This covers 40% of their countries workforce.

So imagine hundreds of thousands of people retiring at 50 or 55, living longer lives now then ever before and getting their full work pension paid by the state.

Messed up

Since this gentleman said that he, and he alone, paid for his pension - I doubt that he is part of this 40%.
Hence he was suffering for the actions of others.

humanji wrote: »

A little over the top, aren't you? People are pointing out that the ENTIRE country of Greece had a part to play, not just two old men. I'm sure the two old men were eligable voters. Who did they put into power? Even little things like that play a part.

As for the comment on the black-market, you must know the phrase "Take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves"? If everyone made what little money they could from illegal means, then there'd be no money going back into the country. Potatoeman was merely pointing this out. The next line he wrote, you completely ignored: "They need massive social change...". He wasn't saying it is only this man who is to blame, he's saying that the entire system needs to be rebuilt.

Highly emotive statements like "The truth is, the Greek Government made choices, the elite made choices and the poor people suffer the consequences." is making it seem like all the people of Greece who isn't a fictional "Elite" are completely innocent of any blame.

The entire Country is not responsible. The children who are going to school hungry certainly are not!
http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/51626

You have no idea who those gentlemen voted for - hence you cannot hold them responsible by insinuating that they voted for the ruling party without offering some proof.

As to the comment about the black market - the gentleman was retired.
he was forced to sell vegetables by the side of the roads to survive.
For all you know, he may actually be paying taxes on his income from that.
Hence, any comments on the Black market are completely absent of any proof - therefore nothing more than innuendo.

At no stage did I say that all the people of Greece who aren't part of an elite are completely innocent.
Don't try to twist what I said, please.

I said the Government and the elite made decisions, for which the poor people are paying.

We are all aware that Greece needs massive social change.
However, part of that social change needs to include protection of the innocent, and punishment of the guilty.
Otherwise the only result of this social change will be the suffering of the innocent, while those who were/are guilty of tax evasion and fraud go unpunished.

That is why it is important to distinguish between those who are responsible, and those who are not.
Saying , "Ah, sure, it's the Greeks own fault!" is neither true, nor helpful from a constructive viewpoint.

Potatoeman wrote: »

I'm not blaming him it's the circumstance he's in and it's unlikely to change any time soon. It's a form of tax evasion and fuels the problem as it’s so widespread.

If he is guilty of tax evasion (and you have no proof whatsoever that that is the case) do you not think that it is a poor reflection on the troika that an old man is faced with a choice between tax evasion, and death?

The Waltzing Consumer

Pottler wrote: »

Tell that to the former self-employed. Tell that to the lad I spoke to yesterday who had literally just been let go - mortgage, car loan, wife, new baby. He looked genuinely terrified at what was facing him and I've met an awful lot like him. Also, here's the news buster, social welfare will be cut, cut, cut. Stick around and come back in a year or two. You sound like all the bucks who used to tell me the boom would never end, Ireland was different, etc etc. Jasus, you're not a TD by any chance?

Yeah calm down there. Did you read what I asked before you went on your high horse rant?

All I said was that there is a huge amount of safety nets in Ireland, I did not comment whether they were good or bad, I said they are they there and asked another poster if he could think of any that were not provided.

Since you did not even name one that is not provided and instead went off on a rant, I am guessing you can't. Also I mentioned that in a recession or in boom times, it is very possible for people to lose jobs, have debts etc., so to not concentrate on just now.

But rant ahead. :rolleyes:

The Waltzing Consumer

Noreen1 wrote: »

Since this gentleman said that he, and he alone, paid for his pension - I doubt that he is part of this 40%.
Hence he was suffering for the actions of others.

No offense Noreen, but how do you know it is true? Why would a man who is in debts and struggling not receive a state pension if it was available to him and said no, he would only have his own funded pension?

In fact, if he alone paid into his pension, how is it touched? I don't recall Greece taxing private pensions in their austerity? I know they have changed state pensions which are affected, but can you confirm they are taxing private pensions like this mans?

The Waltzing Consumer

washman3 wrote: »

The Greeks were aided and abetted by corrupt regulation in the EU.
Their books were "cooked" by none other than Goldman Sachs.
Their crisis,like that of other the other PIGS has been carefully manufactured/manipulated.
Irish pensioners have barely been touched,for the simple reason that they revolted immediately when the threat appeared.
Just to point out some true facts which you already very well know, but chose to ignore.!!

You left out the part where Jim Corr battled with the Olympians against the EU/IMF and Titans.

Noreen1

reprazant wrote: »

What are you talking about? The country is broke. Completely broke. It has no money at all. What do you want the Greek government to do? It has NOTHING.

Without austerity, where is the money going to come from? They have borrowed BILLIONS for Europe. Where are they going to pull that from?

We are all aware that the Greek Government has no money.
However, this problem involves more than the Greek government.
The euro crisis was caused by more than tax evasion in Greece, or Ireland.

It was caused by irresponsible lending, irresponsible financial planning by Governments, etc.

So, where is the punishment for those most responsible?
Where are the trials for tax evasion, for accepting brown envelopes/
Where are the losses to the banks/investors?

When those who are most responsible are held responsible, then the rest of us will find austerity measures more acceptable.

While people are all too willing to blame everyone - then that will never happen.

Seaneh

kincsem wrote: »

Sad.
When a population is greedy and takes more than they produce the result is recession. Some prosper, more suffer.

What a ****ing idiotic, myopic, misinformed view on how economies work.

The Waltzing Consumer

Noreen1 wrote: »

We are all aware that the Greek Government has no money.
However, this problem involves more than the Greek government.
The euro crisis was caused by more than tax evasion in Greece, or Ireland.

It was caused by irresponsible lending, irresponsible financial planning by Governments, etc.

So, where is the punishment for those most responsible?
Where are the trials for tax evasion, for accepting brown envelopes/
Where are the losses to the banks/investors?

When those who are most responsible are held responsible, then the rest of us will find austerity measures more acceptable.

While people are all too willing to blame everyone - then that will never happen.

Noreen, you do realise that you would be hauling 40%+ of the working population over to jail with this thinking? They ALL played a part. It was/s endemic in Greece.

They also got very strong mandates from the electorate to do what they did, you want all the electorate brought before the courts too?

People love a figure, someone to blame it all on, it is their society to blame, not one or two politicians, not one or two bankers, it was all of them as a society.

touts

touts wrote: »

Happens every day in Ireland and across the PIIGS nations. It is just the majority happen in private away from the glare of the media.

Do we still have the highest suicide rate of males between 18-25 in Europe?

Samich

forfuxsake wrote: »

I believe he had a very high regard for how it would effect people. I think he hoped his death would have an effect.

Well, unfortunately, there'll be no change, just talk. Just talk.

Samich

Seaneh wrote: »

What a ****ing idiotic, myopic, misinformed view on how economies work.

Hmmm maybe not. Money just doesn't disappear. Someone has the money.

shedweller

Samich wrote: »

Seaneh wrote: »

What a ****ing idiotic, myopic, misinformed view on how economies work.

Hmmm maybe not. Money just doesn't disappear. Someone has the money.

I used to think that too. But now i'm thinking that it was just zeroes disappearing off a screen and we are working the rest of our lives to put those zeroes back on the screen.

Same as it ever was.

K-9

Noreen1 wrote: »

Where is the proof that this gentleman was guilty of tax evasion, though?

Never said he was.

Where, for that matter, is the proof that the majority of Greeks were guilty of tax evasion?

I never said the majority were guilty.

Its been widely reported that it is a serious problem in Greece and unless you've read nothing about Greece's problems I don't understand how you wouldn't be aware of it. Is it a majority? Well that's a question I doubt anybody knows as well, its hard to collect stats on the black economy, but it is estimated 1/3 of the economy is the black market:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/8714615/Greece-Its-the-corruption-stupid.html

In a country were corruption, the black economy and tax evasion is endemic, it's very hard to solve:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki

Would it not make sense to strip the assets of those who were guilty of tax evasion, rather than embark on austerity measures that condemn old men to rummaging in rubbish bins for food, or having to sell vegetables at the side of the road to pay for medicine?

Well 4,152 cases with bills of nearly €15 Billion is a start, bills in the millions:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/24/greece-tax-dodging-crackdown

It makes 80's Ireland look tax compliant!

What about the children who are fainting in school, because they haven't enough food?

Are they guilty of tax evasion, too?

Well put it this way and ignoring the emotions, if everything was solved tomorrow in Greece, they'd still need to tackle tax evasion.

shedweller

All this talk is just noise. We have forgotten (already) about what the overall problem is. Yes, a person can be the ultimate expert on all things financial. But at the end of the day the taxpayer foots the bill.
All the talking just distracts us from that fact.

So spare me the details and arguments. The banks made obscene money (on a computer screen) and then lost it all. Not too dissimilar to playing a computer game really. But now we have to actually use up whatever life we have left in our bodies to pay back that virtual money!

Remember how much we bitched about the port tunnel? We need another "hoover dam"
Look up the reasons why that was built; it was to generate jobs, ergo tax.

We are idiots for tolerating this. They are laughing at us. Cu**s.

Manic Moran

My mother is 100% Greek born and bred, she has absolutely no sympathy. Much though she's like Gus in My Big Fat Greek Wedding (The Greeks invented everything as far as she's concerned) she has nothing but scorn for the sense of entitlement that the Greeks as a general rule have, and their willingness to let the good times roll to their own detrement.

Its been widely reported that it is a serious problem in Greece and unless you've read nothing about Greece's problems I don't understand how you wouldn't be aware of it

This statement is accurate. Prosecutions for tax evasion, on the rare occasions that they even bother, tend to take eight or nine years to process, so it's just not worth it for the State to deal with. With the result that it's not particularly unusual for people to evade their taxes: They know it's not worth it for the investigators to bother investigating the average individual family.

NTM

turbobaby

Agreed, the sense of entitlement that has populated the West in modern times had led to the problems we see today.

Everyone wants something for free now, but what they don't realise is that nothing is free. The government needs to take it from somebody else (tax) or borrow it in order to give it to the voters for free.

In Greece's case, the government borrowed in order to please the masses with early retirement, low taxes etc. They are now suffering as a result, as the bill needs to be paid.

Of course, they should just tell the lenders to f*** off, and start again with a sustainable economy with a massively devalued Drachma.

This poor man was a victim of others' greed and entitlement, mainly the poor in fact.

Coming to a town near you.

previous user

I think in this country they're still drip feeding people hope on the dole because they're afraid that if they completely take away peoples hope,
what will they have to lose? and instead of harming themselves they'll turn on the people who created this mess and continue to perpetuate it.

thecommietommy

Earlier today, we remarked on the story of a 77-year old Greek, now identified as Dimitris Christoulas, who at around 9 am took his life in the middle of Athens' central Syntagma Square with a bullet to his head. His full suicide note has been released. The note, presented below, ends in a solemn call to arms to "hang the traitors of this country."

Terrible. As someone once said on I think it was UTV, the thing about the collapse of the banks is that the only ones not hurt were the super rich bankers.

thecommietommy

previous user wrote: »

I think in this country they're still drip feeding people hope on the dole because they're afraid that if they completely take away peoples hope,
what will they have to lose? and instead of harming themselves they'll turn on the people who created this mess and continue to perpetuate it.

As the someone once said, unemployment assitance is for the protection of the rich, not the poor. Think about it.