Methanol in Petrol all over the country

skyhighflyer

And yet honest retailers still have people coming in and complaining that their fuel is 3c more expensive per litre than the lad down the road who's just set up selling fuel out of his barn :cool:

Yeah, I would be more inclined to buy from a local retailer and prefer to stick to the big oil companies. But in the end I suppose what's to stop any petrol station owner from selling illegal fuel to make money ?

Higher fuel prices is only going to make the problem much worse!

Yawlboy

Yawlboy wrote: »

Can you explain what you mean by "soft and opensid displays". I have a BioPower and would like to check.

TIA
YB

The opensid needs to be enabled in the engine management software. With that you can view realtime information on what's going on in Trionic engine management, check error codes etc. The ECU needs to be updated with software version that has opensid enabled.

All the info you need is for example here: http://www.trionictuning.com

Dardania

Dardania wrote: »

This explains so much - like a couple of other posters I have been head scratching as to why the efficiency had dropped, despite the car being serviced...

From looking at my spritmonitor log, it seems the Applegreen in cellbridge (beside the cell bridge west exit of the m4) isn't the worst, but that a particular maxol isn't the greatest.

I'm going to see if my obd scanner can report back percentage of alcohol in the fuel mix

Just to report back, I tried scanning my Renault Clio 2 and a 2011 VW Golf for OBD PID 01 52 ( which is meant to report alcohol percentage in fuel according to : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs#Standard_PIDs), but both of those cars reported back no data. It looks as though standard cars don't have that sensor built in.

I will try with a Clio 3 in the family, as I understand the modern 1.2 Renault engine is E85 capable (http://www.renault.com/en/vehicules/renault/pages/clio.aspx) and so should have the alcohol sensor...

September1

What about just taking fuel and adding water to it? It seems to be pretty simple to measure alcohol content:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ethanolTest.html
Then things get not easy as you would need some chemical work to determine if that is methanol or ethanol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodoform_test
NaOH -> use maybe caustic soda
KI -> propably shops pet supplies as it is sometimes added to water in aquarium

Other way would be to distille the mixture and see at what temprature alcohol boil, but I think that is more difficult.

alexlyons

Pottler wrote: »

As an example one guy I deal with a lot was paying for his diesel by card ahead of me in a ss queue and his bill was €524 for 330 litres. I commented on that along the lines of "jasus" and he said "sure thats every day Pottler", (that was for just 1 lorry!)

at 10 hours driving a day getting the average 15mpg that's an average speed of 110mph....

average uk/irl speed limit for hgvs is 55mph (80kph and 60mph max) so it would take 20 hours driving to use that...

cadaliac

alexlyons wrote: »

at 10 hours driving a day getting the average 15mpg that's an average speed of 110mph....

average uk/irl speed limit for hgvs is 55mph (80kph and 60mph max) so it would take 20 hours driving to use that...

How do you make that out?

alexlyons

He said he was using 330 liters of fuel a day. That's 73 gallons or so. Quick google tells you average 18 tonne hgv does 15mpg or so. That's 73x15=1095 miles. Divide that by ten for 10 hours driving. That's 109.5mph.
If his mpg was better than 15 he'd have to be going even faster.

Matt Simis

cadaliac wrote: »

How do you make that out?

He used his brain and the figures provided!

330litres at 15mpg would cover a distance of 1100miles.
10hrs a day is the assumed shift of the truck driver, 1100miles over 10hrs is 110miles per hour.

The variables are the shift time and the average MPG.

cadaliac

alexlyons wrote: »

He said he was using 330 liters of fuel a day. That's 73 gallons or so. Quick google tells you average 18 tonne hgv does 15mpg or so. That's 73x15=1095 miles. Divide that by ten for 10 hours driving. That's 109.5mph.
If his mpg was better than 15 he'd have to be going even faster.

Cheers,
I thought the average mpg was closer to 8 or 9 mpg.

@ Matt,
get out of the wrong side of the bed or something?

bfocusd

Matt Simis wrote: »

cadaliac wrote: »

How do you make that out?

He used his brain and the figures provided!

330litres at 15mpg would cover a distance of 1100miles.
10hrs a day is the assumed shift of the truck driver, 1100miles over 10hrs is 110miles per hour.

The variables are the shift time and the average MPG.

Do they use the trucks for two shifts in 24hrs? If not thats still expensive for two days work on fuel! How can anyone make profits with the price so high?!

Matt Simis

cadaliac wrote: »

Cheers,
I thought the average mpg was closer to 8 or 9 mpg.

@ Matt,
get out of the wrong side of the bed or something?

Lol, did you? Relax!

fasttalkerchat

cadaliac wrote: »

Cheers,
I thought the average mpg was closer to 8 or 9 mpg.

@ Matt,
get out of the wrong side of the bed or something?

That would be miles per litre probably.

cargo

HGV's (40 tonne) would return nearer to 6-8mpg than 15mpg. 15 would be for a handy rigid (less than 20 tonne) so the figures might be closer than you think.

Also I think a comment in a SS is a general throwaway remark and not a statement of fact. The owner probably means it feels like that amount everyday when it may be every 1.5 days.

But if the truck was running 24/7 I'm sure it'd far pass that figure.

Anyway back OT isn't there now a mix of ethanol in all petrol sold on this island to try hit our 2020 Kyoto targets? Added through the old national refinery on Whitegate Island (now owned by ConocoPhilips) in Cork? Think it's E5 (5% ethanol)

eth0

coylemj wrote: »

There is 5% ethanol in all Maxol unleaded....

http://www.maxol.ie/general-content/maxol-bioethanol-e5

This is mandatory for all petrol sold in Ireland now. Maxol used to sell E85

Markdub2000

SouperComputer wrote: »

In terms of the valve and port damage, that makes sense as both of these are a high octane therefore they have a long(er) burn time compared to petrol. This can cause the exhaust valve, seats and ports to be exposed to flames for longer than they would be normally exposed to. The actual burn temp and latent heat of vaporization for meth and eth is much lower than petrol however.

Last year I sent 2k replacing engine exhaust system, seals, valves, lamda sensors etc on an audi a4 petrol - this makes a lot of sense - although I don't really have a regular pump I visit - which begs the question what the hell have I been sold?

Chimaera

EN 228 (the standard for petrol) allows up to 3% methanol and 5% ethanol by volume. Anything beyond this must be explicitly stated at point of sale. It also doesn't demand that these materials be added to the fuel. That is a regulatory decision for the government.

The biofuel obligation scheme mandates a minimum of 4% content by volume of biofuel in transport fuels. http://www.nora.ie/biofuels/biofuels_obligation_scheme.476.476.html

Regarding detection of alcohol, if a mixture is made up of two liquids of known density, then the proportion in which they're mixed can be determined from the density of the mixture. If x is the volume fraction of alcohol, pt the mixture density, pa the alcohol density and pp the petrol density, then x=(pt-pp)/pa-pp)

The density of methanol is generally 792 kg/m^3, and ethanol is 789 kg/m^3. EN 228 allows for the density of petrol to lie in the range 720-775 kg/m^3.

This creates a problem for detection since we can't be sure of the density of the original petrol. This original petrol may have also included methanol and/or ethanol, so we're getting the amount of additional methanol/ethanol added but without knowing how much was in there to start with (though we may be able to guess based on the standard and the biofuel obligation).

To take an example here: lets take a filling station that wants to add 30% v/v of methanol to EN 228 compliant petrol. If the petrol density is at the bottom of the allowed range, the density of the resulting mixture is 742 kg/m^3 which is well inside the approved range for petrol, so it's inconclusive. If the petrol is at the top of the allowed range, the density of the mixture will be 780 kg/m^3 which is slightly outside the range. The minimum mixture which could be guaranteed to contain methanol based on this test is 76%.

There are chemical tests for methanol and ethanol, but I'm not familiar with them and how specific they are to these alcohols. It's unlikely to get a chemical test that'll differentiate between the two since the chemistry of these alcohols is very similar. There are other techniques that can be used, but they are outside the scope of the amateur, or indeed the professional in a roadside setting.

In an engine, the detection is probably based on combustion characteristics. Alcohols modify the octane rating of fuel which will change the combustion characteristics and the engine management can pick this up and compare to a table of known values.

Regarding fuel system problems, methanol can be corrosive to certain rubbers and plastics. At higher concentrations this could be a problem for some cars.