Dominance Theory

_Lady_

WolfgangWeisen wrote: »

Hire a dog behaviourist/obedience trainer.

Ignore anything involving the words "pack" or "dominate/dominance".

Hey Wolfgang, was just wondering what the "pack" "dominance" thing is in reference to? I know there's one author out there whom I find extremely over the top with references to it and there've been campaigns against them in terms of this "touch" with your foot business which basically seems to be kicking dogs to me (without mentioning any names - don't want to break any rules) and that kinda horrifies me, but is there absolutely no merit towards the whole argument of the original pack canine instinct to try and dominate or has that been kind of bred of our woggies at this stage?

I'm working on the basis of the amount of love I give will be at least tenfold in return as well as trying to instill a bit of obedience with reassurance/treats/routine but do we need to be worried about the dominance thing when it comes to socialising puppies and the likes at all do you think?

Interested in this - as my fella is 6 months old today and while he plays rough with a dalmation that he regularly sees and is quite older than him and bigger (they have great craic wrestling and then usually collapse asleep beside each other ) he tries to do the same thing with another dog that is as old, but not as big (a terrier mongrel - great dog) and he doesn't know when to stop annoying him, the other fella is not interested in playing at all. Is that dominance or just foolish inexperience of a pup?

Thanks and sorry for long question!!

Whispered

Lady - can I suggest you start a thread on it, you'll get loads of responses I bet, it's a divisive topic but a very interesting one.

I personally doubt dominance issues occur dog/human, that is rather a dog pushing it's luck, testing boundaries, not knowing what behaviour is wanted or just being bold. I think it's a dangerous thing to advocate because then there is a tendency to blame everything on dominance. If you blame attention seeking behaviours, nervous defence behaviours or guarding behaviours on dominance, you would be inclined to punish the behaviour as opposed to attempting to understand and modify. You're really just suppressing the behaviour, not changing it.

I think dominance issues can occur between dogs, but I don't think it's a static thing, it flows and changes depending on who places a higher value on the thing or situation. I see that with my 2, one is very food orientated and the other respects that and tends to back off from shared foods, but the same dog will not give up a toy if the other wants it because he places a higher value on the toy. One demands attention, the other demands his space on the couch. It changes depending on their moods and there is no one "Alpha" in my little canine family.

_Lady_

Thanks Whisper - think I will!

WolfgangWeisen

Lady,

I was referring to the method of training that experienced a resurgence due to Cesar Milan. The fundamental concept is that the dog believes it's in a pack and that if somebody doesn't step up as "pack leader", the dog will. It comes from the now debunked belief that wolves act in packs in the wild. His training focuses on exerting your "dominance" on a dog and making it submit to a "calm, submissive state". A few years ago when he was just starting out and most likely at his most popular, it was apparent that his method of "dominating" the dog relied on physical "submission" including kicking the dog in the stomach, literally strangling it with a leash fashioned into a choke chain, choke chains themselves, electric shock collars and prong collars, all used after he had exhausted a dog on a treadmill or his rollerblades.

I watch the show a lot and admittedly he has become a lot more reasonable and it is obvious he does have an underlying love of dogs. He's a lot less physical with the dogs and I'll happily admit that I like some of the stuff he teaches, such as distracting a dog when it's building itself into an unwanted state and then rewarding it when it's chilled out. However, his success came from years of treating a dog very harshly on tv to ensure remarkable short term results without regard for the dogs long term health. Americans, naturally, snapped it up. Why put in the work when you can just beat the dog into submission and make it behave right now?! He still uses electric shock collars though, which is something I and many others fundamentally disagree with.

He's a lot more reasonable now, as I said, and seems to take a lot more time with the dogs he's shown to be helping, actively taking some for weeks at a time to work on them personally, or arranging reputable dog trainers to take the dogs if he can't. He seems to now push being calm and assertive, rather than dominant and harsh, and actually rewarding good behaviour (something he didn't advocate much at all for years).

However, the ethics and approach he preached that made him successful are still alive and are being kept alive by lazy dog owners both in the USA and here, despite their "messiah" having obviously moved on from the methods they're still advocating.

Hence, anything that stresses "dominance" or being a "pack leader" should be avoided.

_Lady_

Hey,

Thanks for setting this up - was wondering for a second did I actually do it and not notice?!

Yes, I picked up his book at the library when we got our fella first and took guidelines on housetraining and lead walking etc from it. But it was only when I looked him up to see some of the videos of the show on youtube that I came across the anti-cesar campaign with the videos of him being rather harsh and imho looking like a guy with a bit of a small man vs big dog syndrome!!!!

I was wondering about the dominance thing though - because that's one thing I did notice - in terms of simple stuff, like leading him out the door on the lead; how he pulls me along still when we're out walking (we're working on it still) and how he treats me vs how he treats my oh. Like he's already 16.9 kg and he'll come in and snuggle beside me on the couch basically draping himself across my lap, but with the oh he'll just nudge in beside him - doesn't overly push his luck unless he's right down on the floor beside him in play mode. Now I'm bonkers about him so within reason I'm happy to have the snuggles but I often wonder if i'm letting him away with murder!!

Kash

_Lady_ wrote: »

I was wondering about the dominance thing though - because that's one thing I did notice - in terms of simple stuff, like leading him out the door on the lead; how he pulls me along still when we're out walking (we're working on it still) and how he treats me vs how he treats my oh. Like he's already 16.9 kg and he'll come in and snuggle beside me on the couch basically draping himself across my lap, but with the oh he'll just nudge in beside him - doesn't overly push his luck unless he's right down on the floor beside him in play mode. Now I'm bonkers about him so within reason I'm happy to have the snuggles but I often wonder if i'm letting him away with murder!!

I haven't read very much on dominance theory, and found what I did read to be extremely biased one way or another. Personally, I believe you need to adapt to your dog in order for them to adapt to you.

But the scenario you mentioned above sounds less like dominance and more like a learned behaviour. I assume you welcome the cuddles, you're more touch feely with him, and that you probably laugh or smile when he tries to climb up beside you. I am guessing your OH does not, or isn't such a 'sure thing'. So the dog has learned that with you it's accepted, and with your hubby, it may not be allowed, so he's going to approach it carefully.

My two do this with peoples food - with me and my hubby, they know that they need to lie down at a distance while we eat. With other people, they will sit up close, and watch every bite (and usually get treats - grrr). They've know from experience that this is acceptable to other people, but not to us. Some schools of thought would say that this is because we are the 'alphas' but for me, it is just something they have learned.

_Lady_

Thanks Kash - this makes sense

And we are also training him to sit on his mat during meal times, he's getting better all the time...slowly slowly! But as you say, as soon as there's a visitor, he's in under the table lying at their feet waiting for crumbs lol (pure devilment - my Dad is the worst for it!)

Thanks for the reassurance. Sometimes you just wonder if you're not looking at the bigger picture and just taking things for granted that everything is ok but he's a v quick learner so I would readily believe that he's just learning boundaries that are acceptable. Cheers!

tk123

Kash wrote: »

I assume you welcome the cuddles, you're more touch feely with him, and that you probably laugh or smile when he tries to climb up beside you. I am guessing your OH does not, or isn't such a 'sure thing'. So the dog has learned that with you it's accepted, and with your hubby, it may not be allowed, so he's going to approach it carefully.

He's probably got a :eek: reaction from your OH at some stage when jumped/went to jump up - I like to call it 'the nutcracker' :pac: