Time to bow before the queen?

KeithAFC

woodoo wrote: »

So long as they keep pretending you mean.

If it can maintain the Union, then fine. Sinn Fein are no different on this stance.

HavingCrack

psychward wrote: »

What % of the population is split by sectarianism e.g Rangers/Celtic fans ?

I have come across some unbelieveable bigots in my time from Scotland who I approached with a very open mind but were impossible to get along with unless completely ignored. And I never expected to meet them either. When you think Scotland you think Braveheart etc etc

Generally speaking I found Scotland to be ok outside of Glasgow. Edinburgh is perfectly fine and I found Aberdeen and the Highlands not to have any sectarian undertones either. In the past these places had problems but they seem to have vanished.

The exception is Glasgow and some of the Ayrshire towns which have strong links to loyalist paramilitaries.

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

The DUP are a party I couldn't bring myself to vote for because to me they have not done enough to get rid of the old DUP / Free P image. That and the fact I find them distinctly unlikeable. The exception to this is Sammy Wilson, who personally I think is a fantastic Finance minister and goes against the grain slightly of your typical DUP MLA.

And yep, I agree. Middle class Catholics certainly haven't abandoned the idea of a United Ireland, or lost their aspirations for one, but they don't have a "United Ireland at whatever cost" outlook. They want it, but the effect it has on them and their families must be for the better.

As it stands with recessions and debt and what not, very few people in NI would be better off as part of a 32 county Ireland.

I personally like Sammy Wilson, although I don't necessarily support his decision to allow the Orange Order to march on Stormont for the 100th Anniversary of the Ulster Covenant.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/orange-orderrsquos-goahead-to-commemorate-ulster-covenant-at-stormont-16143345.html

I can certainly understand the desire for Unionists to celebrate the Centenary event with renewed enthusiasm. However, by including the Orange Order in the proceedings, they are effectively endorsing the organisation as being an accurate portrayl of the Stormont Assembley and the Union in it's current state.

Sound of Silence

HavingCrack wrote: »

Would this be considered a 'working class' "Nationalist" area by any chance? I find middle and upper class Nationalists are a lot more pragmatic. They aren't opposed to a United Ireland but they don't actively wish for it either.

It's a typically Middle-Class area. This being defined purely by what I understand to be the current level of lifestyle enjoyed by the local population.

The whole idea of class, however, is quite hard to define. I'm sure you're referring to wage brackets rather than occupations.

Sound of Silence

Bambi wrote: »

Or more military grade explosives than is practicable

Did you want to add something to the debate?

Sound of Silence

KeithAFC wrote: »

If it can maintain the Union, then fine. Sinn Fein are no different on this stance.

Clearly Sinn Fein have done comparatively little to suspend the disbelief of potential voters.

Just maintain the mask of tolerability and everything will be okay...

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I personally like Sammy Wilson, although I don't necessarily support his decision to allow the Orange Order to march on Stormont for the 100th Anniversary of the Ulster Covenant.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/orange-orderrsquos-goahead-to-commemorate-ulster-covenant-at-stormont-16143345.html

I can certainly understand the desire for Unionists to celebrate the Centenary event with renewed enthusiasm. However, by including the Orange Order in the proceedings, they are effectively endorsing the organisation as being an accurate portrayl of the Stormont Assembley and the Union in it's current state.

I think the Orange Order is one of the most misunderstood things in NI. In saying that, they contribute immensely to their own problems. They really are awful at public relations.

Nodin

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I personally like Sammy Wilson, although I don't necessarily support his decision to allow the Orange Order to march on Stormont for the 100th Anniversary of the Ulster Covenant.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/orange-orderrsquos-goahead-to-commemorate-ulster-covenant-at-stormont-16143345.html

I can certainly understand the desire for Unionists to celebrate the Centenary event with renewed enthusiasm. However, by including the Orange Order in the proceedings, they are effectively endorsing the organisation as being an accurate portrayl of the Stormont Assembley and the Union in it's current state.

He comes across as human, despite his differing views etc. There tends to be a competition to be voted 'Most Dour' amongst a lot of the others.

awec

Nodin wrote: »

He comes across as human, despite his differing views etc. There tends to be a competition to be voted 'Most Dour' amongst a lot of the others.

I'd say Reg Empey wins that hands down. A more bland individual I have never seen.

Nodin

awec wrote: »

I'd say Reg Empey wins that hands down. A more bland individual I have never seen.

Molyneaux, if you remember him, had a botox face before botox. Dodds is another party killer. You might get a smile out of willie mccrea, but you'd only get scared and then wonder if somebody had died.

awec

More likely to get a song out of Willie McCrea than a smile. His music is actually worse than the troubles.

woodoo

Nodin wrote: »

Molyneaux, if you remember him, had a botox face before botox. Dodds is another party killer. You might get a smile out of willie mccrea, but you'd only get scared and then wonder if somebody had died.

Willie McCrea is a fairly unlikable character too.

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

I think the Orange Order is one of the most misunderstood things in NI. In saying that, they contribute immensely to their own problems. They really are awful at public relations.

They will have to work very hard to distance themselves from what happened in Drumcree.

Trimble and Paisley's Drumcree "Victory Jig" seems to have left a lasting impression. Need I say more? :rolleyes:

At least we knew where we stood with the Stormont elite and the Orange institution.

Nodin

woodoo wrote: »

Willie McCrea is a fairly unlikable character too.

...that was sort of what I was getting at.

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

They will have to work very hard to distance themselves from what happened in Drumcree.

Trimble and Paisley's Drumcree "Victory Jig" seems to have left a lasting impression. Need I say more? :rolleyes:

At least we knew where we stood with the Stormont elite and the Orange institution.

Drumcree was a disaster from start to finish. Neither side has clean hands in that one.

Apt that we are talking about Willie McCrea, a man stupid enough to get up on a podium with Billy Wright and shake his hand.

That said, Brendan McKenna is one hateful man too.

Nodin

I remember the Rev McCrea referring to the activities of Wright and co as giving 'them' a 'taste of their own medicine'. Something got him on the platform allright, but it wasn't stupidity.

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

Drumcree was a disaster from start to finish. Neither side has clean hands in that one.

Apt that we are talking about Willie McCrea, a man stupid enough to get up on a podium with Billy Wright and shake his hand.

That said, Brendan McKenna is one hateful man too.

The Orange Order outright refused to accept the wishes of the Garvaghy Road residents. The violence that eventually ensued seemed to be entirely one-sided.

The burning down of a Catholic Church; the murder of five children under the age of ten and the subsequent discovery of a cache of firearms buried in the neighbouring field; the shooting dead of a local Catholic taxi-driver.

I don't even need to mention the numerous threats made by Loyalist Orangemen to burn Catholics out of their homes if the demands of the order weren't met, as such conditions go without saying. Even the UUP threatened to drop out of the peace process if the march didn't go ahead as planned.

And amidst all this violence, our senior political leaders were unshifting in their support for the parade despite all the terrible consequences. Now these same lodges have been granted permission to march on Stormont to mark the formation of the Northern Irish state.

Are these people truly representative of the Northern Irish people?

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

The Orange Order outright refused to accept the wishes of the Garvaghy Road residents. The violence that eventually ensued seemed to be entirely one-sided.

The burning down of a Catholic Church; the murder of five children under the age of ten and the subsequent discovery of a cache of firearms buried in the neighbouring field; the shooting dead of a local Catholic taxi-driver.

I don't even need to mention the numerous threats made by Loyalist Orangemen to burn Catholics out of their homes if the demands of the order weren't met, as such conditions go without saying. Even the UUP threatened to drop out of the peace process if the march didn't go ahead as planned.

And amidst all this violence, our senior political leaders were unshifting in their support for the parade despite all the terrible consequences. Now these same lodges have been granted permission to march on Stormont to mark the formation of the Northern Irish state.

Are these people truly representative of the Northern Irish people?

No doubt those things happened, I just find it very peculiar that it went ahead without issue for years until certain individuals moved into the area.

Sinn Fein set about a strategy of making marches contentious, and the Orange Order were stupid enough to fall for their little game. The Ardoyne is another one.

For what it's worth the Orange Order lost massive support in the wake of Drumcree and it has still not fully recovered. Personally I care little if they walk down it or not.

Just don't be fooled into thinking that the issue people like Brendan McKenna have is a bunch of Orange men walking down a particular street.

KeithAFC

The Orange Order walked right into that one alright. I think the Order should be looking at creating new routes to be honest.

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

No doubt those things happened, I just find it very peculiar that it went ahead without issue for years until certain individuals moved into the area.

Sinn Fein set about a strategy of making marches contentious, and the Orange Order were stupid enough to fall for their little game. The Ardoyne is another one.

For what it's worth the Orange Order lost massive support in the wake of Drumcree and it has still not fully recovered. Personally I care little if they walk down it or not.

Just don't be fooled into thinking that the issue people like Brendan McKenna have is a bunch of Orange men walking down a particular street.

The parade had been an issue of contention since the early 1880's.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/csc/reports/rituals3.htm

I'm also suprised how you've managed to defer blame to Sinn Fein rather than to the men who actually committed the violence themselves. Such men have been gifted with the capacity for individual thought, and as such should be accountable for their actions.

Even if Sinn Fein had not saw fit to raise the issue of contentious parades, the residents of the Garvaghy Road would almost certainly have continued to stress their grievances - but this time in silence.

Sound of Silence

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Orange Order walked right into that one alright. I think the Order should be looking at creating new routes to be honest.

Walked right into it...Twenty-six years in a row, apparently.

Saying that, in 1972 the Orange Order had little to no problem with the British Army tearing down the barricades to allow the marchers to pass through unnopposed. The marchers being accompanied by uniformed UDA members who would later go on to shoot dead three civilians that same night.

Clearly it was Sinn Fein who made the parade contentious.

KeithAFC

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Walked right into it...Twenty-six years in a row, apparently.

Saying that, in 1972 the Orange Order had little to no problem with the British Army tearing down the barricades to allow the marchers to pass through unnopposed. The marchers being accompanied by uniformed UDA members who would later go on to shoot dead three civilians that night same night.

Clearly it was Sinn Fein who made the parade contentious.

Its all in the past now. Time to move on IMO.

girl2

No no no no no no no. That's it now. No.

Didn't even read any other posts.

LH Pathe

I have many a Hello! with piddleton adorning the front strewn about the gaf. lavatory walls plastered with her; she's so great. And wonder why it's not the princely one, will.i.am..

I am not?! why can't Irish guysharbour the same aspirations. Delusions? But here's the funny thing; harry can't bag a wife. Chav trumps prince, even. Nobody wants to know this, modern regular lad. Royalty or not

Sound of Silence

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its all in the past now. Time to move on IMO.

You've moved on, have you?

Vol. David Swanson
Vol. Geoffrey Freeman
Vol. Aubrey Reid
Vol. Mark Dodds

RIP. 2nd Oct 1975

RIP Vol Gusty Spence (28 June 1933 - 24 September 2011)

I'm sure you have.

KeithAFC

Sound of Silence wrote: »

You've moved on, have you?





I'm sure you have.

Yes. People remember their war dead. Same with Bobby Sands on here and other IRA combatants. But the guns are gone.

LH Pathe

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think the Order should be looking at creating new routes to be honest.

we'll have to...

stick it in the paaaan

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

The parade had been an issue of contention since the early 1880's.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/csc/reports/rituals3.htm

I'm also suprised how you've managed to defer blame to Sinn Fein rather than to the men who actually committed the violence themselves. Such men have been gifted with the capacity for individual thought, and as such should be accountable for their actions.

Even if Sinn Fein had not saw fit to raise the issue of contentious parades, the residents of the Garvaghy Road would almost certainly have continued to stress their grievances - but this time in silence.

I am certainly not deferring blame to Sinn Fein. The blame for the violence belongs with those that engaged in it.

Sinn Fein however played a game of stroking up tension. This is undeniable.

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

You've moved on, have you?





I'm sure you have.

Did Keith post those things?

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

Did Keith post those things?

They're in his profile.

HavingCrack

Sound of Silence wrote: »

It's a typically Middle-Class area. This being defined purely by what I understand to be the current level of lifestyle enjoyed by the local population.

The whole idea of class, however, is quite hard to define. I'm sure you're referring to wage brackets rather than occupations.

Fair enough, my experiences with 'Nationalist' middle and upper classes in Northern Ireland has been quite different.

However as you point out defining class is extremely difficult. Some people use wage brackets but I think that's far too narrow an approach. Social class is to do with an awful lot more than wealth in the views of most sociologists. Occupations might be one of them. A builder from a council estate who left school at 16 living in a private middle class estate might be earning more money than the lawyer/architect/teacher living next door for example. However in some peole's eye's he might have money but would still be considered 'working class'. You find this phenomenon in England in particular, where 60% of people self-describe themselves as working class but using wage brackets alone the number would be closer to 30%.

Basically my point is that some apparently middle class Nationalist areas on the basis of income would still have a very working class 'mentality' so to speak. I usually find a good indicator is supposedly middle class areas in Belfast voting for Sinn Fein, a left wing socialist party. In the Republic Sinn Fein can't get elected in middle class areas because of their economic policies by comparison. Generally speaking parties as far to the left as Sinn Fein don't appeal to voters in western Europe. While a lot of Nationalist areas may be middle class by income, culturally they're still quite working class.

Anyway the whole area is a very contentious minefield as you pointed out so maybe I better stop before I go too far off topic.

Sorry I'm probably not explaining my point very well, hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to say .

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

I am certainly not deferring blame to Sinn Fein. The blame for the violence belongs with those that engaged in it.

Sinn Fein however played a game of stroking up tension. This is undeniable.

As mentioned in a previous post, the parade was abnormally violent even before any overt involvement on behalf of Sinn Fein. It was not the fact that Sinn Fein got involved that incensed the marchers, but the fact that the residents of the Garvaghy Road saw fit to raise their voices.

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

They're in his profile.

Sigh. Cringe.

I don't know who the other 3 are but I'm pretty sure your man Freeman blew himself up and well we all know about Gusty Spence, a man who murdered multiple people. Hardly worth remembering and certainly they are not "war dead" (especially given there was never any war).

Why Keith?

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

As mentioned in a previous post, the parade was abnormally violent even before any overt involvement on behalf of Sinn Fein. It was not the fact that Sinn Fein got involved that incensed the marchers, but the fact that the residents of the Garvaghy Road saw fit to raise their voices.

Out of interest, have you been on the Garvaghy road? Just being curious here.

(By the way I really hope it doesn't sound like I'm some sort of pro-orange super prod type who dislikes anyone from Garvaghy! :pac: )

HavingCrack

awec wrote: »

I am certainly not deferring blame to Sinn Fein. The blame for the violence belongs with those that engaged in it.

Sinn Fein however played a game of stroking up tension. This is undeniable.

Yeah I think a huge issue in Northern Ireland was politicans 'fanning the flames' and then saying the subsequent violence had nothing to do with them at all. Granted they had no direct involvement but stoking tensions is never a good thing to do, Paisley was easily the worst offender for this.

KeithAFC

awec wrote: »

Sigh. Cringe.

I don't know who the other 3 are but I'm pretty sure your man Freeman blew himself up and well we all know about Gusty Spence, a man who murdered multiple people. Hardly worth remembering and certainly they are not "war dead" (especially given there was never any war).

Why Keith?

Ask Irish Republicans that.

I feel this is going off topic now though. Completely irrelevant to the thread.

awec

Indeed, it has! And I said ages ago I was backing out! Feck!

fasttalkerchat

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ask Irish Republicans that.

I feel this is going off topic now though. Completely irrelevant to the thread.

Gusty Spence had little influence or role in the "war" between the IRA and british forces.

Sound of Silence

HavingCrack wrote: »

Fair enough, my experiences with 'Nationalist' middle and upper classes in Northern Ireland has been quite different.

However as you point out defining class is extremely difficult. Some people use wage brackets but I think that's far too narrow an approach. Social class is to do with an awful lot more than wealth in the views of most sociologists. Occupations might be one of them. A builder from a council estate who left school at 16 living in a private middle class estate might be earning more money than the lawyer/architect/teacher living next door for example. However in some peole's eye's he might have money but would still be considered 'working class'. You find this phenomenon in England in particular, where 60% of people self-describe themselves as working class but using wage brackets alone the number would be closer to 30%.

Basically my point is that some apparently middle class Nationalist areas on the basis of income would still have a very working class 'mentality' so to speak. I usually find a good indicator is supposedly middle class areas in Belfast voting for Sinn Fein, a left wing socialist party. In the Republic Sinn Fein can't get elected in middle class areas because of their economic policies by comparison. Generally speaking parties as far to the left as Sinn Fein don't appeal to voters in western Europe. While a lot of Nationalist areas may be middle class by income, culturally they're still quite working class.

Anyway the whole area is a very contentious minefield as you pointed out so maybe I better stop before I go too far off topic.

Sorry I'm probably not explaining my point very well, hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to say .

You've explained yourself perfectly.

As I had mentioned previously, it is incredibly difficult to navigate issues of class division, especially when such divisions have been relentlessly compounded by religious and sectarian tensions. In such an abnormal environment it becomes almost impossible to accurately predict any sort of identifiable trend among certain groups.

As such, Northern Ireland will often seem to defy many rational concepts of what would be considered normal in any other modern society. Whilst it may seem entirely illogical for a Middle-class Catholic family to support a left wing agenda, what is similarly confounding is the idea that a working-class Protestant family may feel the desire to vote for a right-wing party.

The traditional political spectrum could arguably be considered redundant in a society which is divided at significantly deeper level than simple wage-brackets.

Sound of Silence

awec wrote: »

Out of interest, have you been on the Garvaghy road? Just being curious here.

(By the way I really hope it doesn't sound like I'm some sort of pro-orange super prod type who dislikes anyone from Garvaghy! :pac: )

I've never been on the road itself, beyond driving through Portadown. Any interest I do have in the subject itself is unlikely to develop into some morbid fascination with the road, lol - well, certainly not enough to make me go sightseeing. I'm interested in the topic as being a pivotal moment in the history of the Troubles.

Don't worry, I never once considered you a "Super Prod" . You're a wholly reasonable Unionist, and I hope I'm an equally reasonable Nationalist!

It's just nice to hear opposing views, even if I happen to disagree with them on occasion. :P

mongoman

OP - I think you are trolling trying to hard.

awec

Sound of Silence wrote: »

I've never been on the road itself, beyond driving through Portadown. Any interest I do have in the subject itself is unlikely to develop into some morbid fascination with the road, lol - well, certainly not enough to make me go sightseeing. I'm interested in the topic as being a pivotal moment in the history of the Troubles.

Don't worry, I never once considered you a "Super Prod" . You're a wholly reasonable Unionist, and I hope I'm an equally reasonable Nationalist!

It's just nice to hear opposing views, even if I happen to disagree with them on occasion. :P

Phew!

Dyr

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Did you want to add something to the debate?

All I am saying, is give PBX a chance

Mance Rayder

NinjaK wrote: »

Why doesnt a Jew bow before Hitler? Its the same standard to any Irish Patriot. A West-Brit/Invader/brit then its more then understandable

I have Irish parents, Grandparents from boths sides of the border and one English great great and some Scottish ancestors.

You know what this means?

NOTHING. Thats what it means. Welcome to 2012.


Personally I would never bow before anyone. Those days are gone. I have no faith in the Irish government and our Republic, I have no faith in the UK. I just have faith in the good intelligent people who are out there on both sides of the divide. People who just want to move on, live in peace, and work towards a better future.

Mance Rayder

Mickeroo wrote: »

Did Ireland EVER exist as a fully fledged nation before the last century? Isn't the whole idea of sovereign nations as they exist today something that only really came about in the last 3 or 4 hundred years? Genuine questons.

Very interesting point. I must admit I have never thought about it like that.

Ireland was never united. In fact these islands have been the staging ground for 1000's of years of clans, nations and peoples jostling for power, for supremecy. Yes the Irish were persecuted by the British under their various guises, but so have the British by the same rulers. The point is, we are all brothers and sisters of these isles, regardless of our stormy history, we have more in common with each other then with any other nations on the planet.

psychward

Ireland was united in it's own way via a common language and culture unhindered by ''big government'' which rapes the taxpayer in the same way invading Vikings would have raped all and sundry in the 9th century. You can nit pick on what exactly government means. Most of the EU is democratic only in name but not in deed. Watch the charade of musical chairs replacing a turd sandwich with a giant douche at the next elections. Only freedom matters, not who gets to put their foot on your head. Ireland was free for a long time.

CiscoStudent wrote: »

we have more in common with each other then with any other nations on the planet.

Seems kind of strange to deny the existence of nations and then make a great leap to putting a fence around both nations saying they are the same nation especially when you are dealing with such a multicultural diverse neighbour as the UK where comparing Ireland to some parts of England could be the same as comparing Ireland to Pakistan.

Jay D

Can somebody give the OP a life please?