Time to bow before the queen?

_Gawd_

I've no problem simply for the fact that the Queen is British.

My refusal to bow to anyone be they Irish or other stems from the fact that I believe nobody has the right to rule by divine right and that being proud of something comes from personal merit and accomplishment as opposed to some random circumstance of you being here or there.

youreadthis

_Gawd_ wrote: »

I've no problem simply for the fact that the Queen is British.

My refusal to bow to anyone be they Irish or other stems from the fact that I believe nobody has the right to rule by divine right and that being proud of something comes from personal merit and accomplishment as opposed to some random circumstance of you being here or there.

Isn't that what most nationalism is? :pac:

steddyeddy

Theres more people in america who claim to be Irish or of Irish descent so based on the op's idea why not become a state of america instead?

PS: not that I would want to!

Robdude

steddyeddy wrote: »

Theres more people in america who claim to be Irish or of Irish descent so based on the op's idea why not become a state of america instead?

PS: not that I would want to!

From what I've seen, we'd be better off under the rule of the Queen *or* as a state in the United States.

_Gawd_

youreadthis wrote: »

Isn't that what most nationalism is? :pac:

I'm not nationalistic.

youreadthis

_Gawd_ wrote: »

I'm not nationalistic.

Wasn't accusing!

xsiborg

Nodin wrote: »

you might recall there was the odd kerfuffle before 1916. Laws that were a bit harsh, one way holidays to the caribbean, not allowed in the swimming pool if you were of the catholic persuasion....

im no great historian but yes, i do remember the penal laws and the penal colonies in australia, but honestly Nodin, that was how long ago now? i also remember from my history books reading about the famine and can you honestly say we would have survived as a nation had the british not decided to hand out meal? talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

yes of course i'll admit that the british government back then committed terrible atrocities, but by that same token, have the IRA not done the same since in the name of war? canary wharf, omagh, to name but two! we cant totally paint ourselves out to be innocent either if one wants to go down that route.

as for catholics in swimming pools- sure you're nearly not welcome on boards.ie now if you're catholic! you only need look at the amount of catholic bashing threads in AH that are allowed run and run to see evidence of that!

WoollyRedHat

I practice my curtsy skills every day and am well versed in the various type of crumpets and how best to serve them, should the Queen ever come to visit and I in her presence.

The Internet Explorer

BONDHOLDERS ! ! !

psychward

Deleted User wrote: »

I vote yes to the newly named United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Not only should we come under British rule but we should be part of the commonwealth and sever our ties with Rome just as Henry VIII did.

The highlighted part above explains your true agenda. Not a true and fair partnership but ''Ruled by''.

It also is symptomatic of the agenda of everything from foreign kings to foreign parliaments which even to this day try to turn the Irish into subjects (e.g EU pretend democracy) instead of citizens.

As for Irish relations with Rome , we already closed our embassy. Ahhh and did I mention your hypocrisy in relation to the fact that as British subjects we would be forced to maintain and keep open the British embassy in the Vatican and pay for it out of our taxes (effectively reopening the Irish embassy) just so the British could feel important :rolleyes:

bout3fiddy

_Gawd_ wrote: »

I've no problem simply for the fact that the Queen is British.

My refusal to bow to anyone be they Irish or other stems from the fact that I believe nobody has the right to rule by divine right and that being proud of something comes from personal merit and accomplishment as opposed to some random circumstance of you being here or there.

Now back to the workhouse, peasant.

Nodin

xsiborg wrote: »

im no great historian but yes, i do remember the penal laws and the penal colonies in australia, but honestly Nodin, that was how long ago now? i also remember from my history books reading about the famine and can you honestly say we would have survived as a nation had the british not decided to hand out meal? talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

yes of course i'll admit that the british government back then committed terrible atrocities, but by that same token, have the IRA not done the same since in the name of war? canary wharf, omagh, to name but two! we cant totally paint ourselves out to be innocent either if one wants to go down that route.!

You're talking about acts of ethnic cleansing and massacre that targeted tens of thousands of people over hundreds of years vs a bomb in london. While both constitute atrocities I'd suggest a sense of scale is required.

Secondly, as pointed out, there were far more that suffered at the hands of the Empire, and, in many cases, they suffered far worse. Nor do we have to go back hundreds of years eg a tiny sample

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_bazaar_massacre

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/mau-mau-torture-files-were-guilty-secret-2281456.html

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/sum.htm

Who would want to be associated with that?

entropi

Well played OP, well played!

Fratton Fred

Doc Ruby wrote: »

The EU won't have britain because they never came near meeting the criteria to join the EU. Still though I'd accept britain as a vassal state since the total market value of their property for sale is approximately £6 trillion, which is about equal to the reparations due after accounting for several million people murdered due to malice, incompetence, and outright genocidal tendencies. And lets not even talk about the displaced.

After weeding out the ones that don't bow at the waist to a harp (and they are well used to bowing, being subjects), we'll still have probably 70% of the population not evicted, which is a good thing because it would take a while for us to repopulate the place and wear and tear would render most of the country worthless in the meantime.

Lets hope they can learn Irish quickly.


Whose flag is it flying over government buildings again? Oh wait, not the UK. Its an Irish flag. So they lost. Failed. Figured out, slowly, that you need more than a machine gun to occupy a country. The shortest lived empire in history. Embarrassing really, I'd be ashamed to be associated with it.

Britain don't meet the criteria to join the euro, but Greece, Ireland and Portugal do.

What exactly is the criteria, corrupt incompetent governments?

When and where was the genocide by the way?

corktina

_Gawd_ wrote: »

I've no problem simply for the fact that the Queen is British.

My refusal to bow to anyone be they Irish or other stems from the fact that I believe nobody has the right to rule by divine right and that being proud of something comes from personal merit and accomplishment as opposed to some random circumstance of you being here or there.

The Queen of England doesn't rule by divine right, she rules by the consent of the People. Runnymede and all that old chap.

nxbyveromdwjpg

NinjaK wrote: »

Over 30% saying yes:rolleyes: Only on boards:rolleyes:

No, not only on boards. I'd definitely vote to re-join Britain if offered the opportunity.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britain don't meet the criteria to join the euro, but Greece, Ireland and Portugal do.

What exactly is the criteria, corrupt incompetent governments?

When and where was the genocide by the way?

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[

India, Kenya, here, Australia.....

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

India, Kenya, here, Australia.....

You're so funny Nodin. You would be almost credible if you knew your history.

awec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britain don't meet the criteria to join the euro, but Greece, Ireland and Portugal do.

What exactly is the criteria, corrupt incompetent governments?

When and where was the genocide by the way?

I think you're taking him a little too seriously...

xsiborg

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I meant the eurozone, which The Great British Public couldn't join if they wanted to.

the fact that the british chose not to join the eurozone i think you'll find is one of the main reasons for it's failure. if the british had joined it would have put more weight behind the euro, but the fact that the euro was not backed by britian (as one of the G8 countries), was seen economically at least, as a vote of no confidence.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

There are plenty of very serious problems with the Irish government, but none that could not be made worse by being subordinate to britain.

we agree here at least Doc, we irish have shown that we are quite capable of fúcking up on our own!

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh they made plenty of efforts to wipe us off the planet, and failed. It was war? What's your definition of war, prone civilians getting bayoneted by professional soldiers? Britain has a deep debt to pay, and not just to Ireland. I wouldn't want to be british, being honest, the future will not be a pleasant place.

you're talking about history 800 years ago as if you actually lived through it. you didn't! it's time to move on, the rest of the world has, you can't play the helpless oppressed victim mentality forever, and certainly not if you didnt live through it!

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You mean the USA and Australia surely, where the vast, vast bulk of the Irish diaspora currently resides.

i meant england Doc, where many irishmen even went and fought for britain in the war, and then many more emigrated there to build britain back up after the war, and did so again in the 80's, at least i can say i was around then to witness the mass emigration to england during the last recession.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

As ignorant comments go, that's the best one so far. No resources means write the place off and get yer murder on, never mind the people living there. Besides being painfully wrong, since we do in fact still have a fairly impressive GDP, it really highlights the halfassery that was britain.

ah here Doc, i certainly hadnt meant to come across as ignorant, but there honestly was no point left in the british occupying ireland, it's not like we had any resources like diamonds in south africa, all we had was spuds ffs!

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Long live Scotland and Wales, whenever they become free! May they join Ireland in determining their own destinies, away from the ankle grabbing english.

im half expecting now that you'll turn around and hitch up your kilt and start slapping your bare árse in my face braveheart style! come on Doc, that's just old rhetoric, and as for ankle grabbing- i'd be more worried about the irish government expecting us to bend over and grab our ankles!

Nodin wrote: »

You're talking about acts of ethnic cleansing and massacre that targeted tens of thousands of people over hundreds of years vs a bomb in london. While both constitute atrocities I'd suggest a sense of scale is required.

Nodin i'd respectfuly suggest a sense of perspective is required.

Nodin wrote: »

Secondly, as pointed out, there were far more that suffered at the hands of the Empire, and, in many cases, they suffered far worse. Nor do we have to go back hundreds of years eg a tiny sample

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa_Khwani_bazaar_massacre

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/09/malaya-massacre-villagers-coverup

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/mau-mau-torture-files-were-guilty-secret-2281456.html

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/sum.htm

Who would want to be associated with that?

Nodin i clicked on the first link- 1930, is it not time to move on? as i have suggested already?

lets leave the history in the past where it belongs lads, none of us were around in 1930 in fairness, lets just talk about now.

Nodin

xsiborg wrote: »

lets leave the history in the past where it belongs lads, none of us were around in 1930 in fairness, lets just talk about now.

...but convenietly skipped the one from 1948 that was still being covered up in the 1990's, the one from the 1950's thats still being evaded today, the one from the 1970's they accepted some blame for......

If you want to talk about today how about
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/iraq-death-secret-detention-camp

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You're so funny Nodin. You would be almost credible if you knew your history.

So how many hundreds of thousands Indians were massacred in reprisal for the sepoy rebeliion in 1857?

Do you dispute that 320,000 Kenyans were placed in prison camps and a further million in guarded villages during the mau mau rebellion?

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

So how many hundreds of thousands Indians were massacred in reprisal for the sepoy rebeliion in 1857?

Do you dispute that 320,000 Kenyans were placed in prison camps and a further million in guarded villages during the mau mau rebellion?

How many Irishman received VC's during the sepoy rebellion again? Quite a few Iirc. Still not genocide though.

Nor was rounding up mau maus to prevent a civil war escalating and the very real possibility of actual genocide taking place, not the makey uppy stuff you read about in terrorist sympathiser weekly or whatever the fanzine is called.

Going back to the original OP, As we're ruled by the Germans and the current royal lineage is German, would there be any difference??????

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

...but convenietly skipped the one from 1948 that was still being covered up in the 1990's, the one from the 1950's thats still being evaded today, the one from the 1970's they accepted some blame for......

If you want to talk about today how about
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/iraq-death-secret-detention-camp

Has Gerry told the families of the missing where the bodies are yet?

Let he who is without sin caste the first stone.

Doc Ruby

xsiborg wrote: »

the fact that the british chose not to join the eurozone i think you'll find is one of the main reasons for it's failure. if the british had joined it would have put more weight behind the euro, but the fact that the euro was not backed by britian (as one of the G8 countries), was seen economically at least, as a vote of no confidence.

The fact that the british didn't join the eurozone was due to the fact that the british were unable to join the eurozone. The subsequent failures were due to some fairly impressive failures to anticipate problems on the part of the architects of the eurozone, nothing to do with britain.

xsiborg wrote: »

you're talking about history 800 years ago as if you actually lived through it. you didn't! it's time to move on, the rest of the world has, you can't play the helpless oppressed victim mentality forever, and certainly not if you didnt live through it!

Not 800 years by a long shot boyo. And I'm making no excuses for the problems afflicting Ireland today either.

xsiborg wrote: »

i meant england Doc, where many irishmen even went and fought for britain in the war, and then many more emigrated there to build britain back up after the war, and did so again in the 80's, at least i can say i was around then to witness the mass emigration to england during the last recession.

I witnessed mass emigration to the USA for those who could afford it. As for the rest, if someone is handing out money, who can blame people for taking it.

xsiborg wrote: »

ah here Doc, i certainly hadnt meant to come across as ignorant, but there honestly was no point left in the british occupying ireland, it's not like we had any resources like diamonds in south africa, all we had was spuds ffs!

South Africa was occupied by the Dutch. And Ireland was at one point known as the bread basket of the empire, as evidenced by british controlled massive food exports during the height of the famine.

The sorry trail of complete incompetence and half assed political manipulation left behind by the british in every arena they tainted does not inspire me to be inclined towards ever giving those idiots a hint of influence in this country or any country ever again. In fact it would be for the best if the governance of their own country were taken away from them for their own safety.

Doc Ruby

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Has Gerry told the families of the missing where the bodies are yet?

Let he who is without sin caste the first stone.

True, at least jolly old engerlund has the locations of a few of the mass graves.

dlofnep

Yeah, because we really want English MP's to be dictating Irish affairs like they do in the rest of the UK. Thanks, but no thanks. I enjoy my freedom (well, what's left of it anyway).

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many Irishman received VC's during the sepoy rebellion again? Quite a few Iirc. Still not genocide though..

I'll put that in again -

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

(my bold & underline)

I'd say 400,000 to 500,000 civillians killed as reprisals gets a mention there, certainly. Now you can argue - when we get to it - the millions of famine deaths in the late 1870's due to British policy, but direct massacres? I think not.

Just as a matter of interest, how has that anything to do with the fact it was carried out on behalf of the British Empire?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nor was rounding up mau maus to prevent a civil war escalating and the very real possibility of actual genocide taking place, not the makey uppy stuff you read about in terrorist sympathiser weekly or whatever the fanzine is called.

Yep, yez were just there to do good. The "white mans burden". And if all the most fertile land is seized by colonists and untold thousands kicked out along the way, and those who resist or protest shot down like dogs in the street, sure that's an awful thing thats really the natives fault. Even Churchill was taken aback at the way the Kenyans were treated on occassion.

The idea that it was a civil war went out with Empire apologia....though I suppose if you're still apologising for the Empire you never got that memo either.

Here's a few fanzines for you...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Histories-Hanged-Britains-Dirty-Empire/dp/0297847198

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-Reckoning-Untold-Story-Britains/dp/0805080015/ref=pd_cp_b_0

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Making/dp/1859843824/ref=reg_hu-rd_add_1_dp

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Has Gerry told the families of the missing where the bodies are yet?

Let he who is without sin caste the first stone.

Well thats a shock. I was expecting a "But the Belgians...."

emmmm...the thread title is "Time to bow before the Queen"? When Gerry becomes either a Queen or the Queen of across the water, it may be a relevant point. Until then, however......

KeithAFC

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Has Gerry told the families of the missing where the bodies are yet?

Let he who is without sin caste the first stone.

Plus 1641 and 1798. The accusations of genocide towards the British can be put towards the Irish too.

psychward

xsiborg wrote: »

ah here Doc, i certainly hadnt meant to come across as ignorant, but there honestly was no point left in the british occupying ireland, it's not like we had any resources like diamonds in south africa, all we had was spuds ffs!

Almost every inch of Ireland was covered in hardwood forests. The image of Ireland you see today has feck all relation to the Ireland which a Gael would have seen before the English arrived. All our forests went to build the ships necessary for expansion of the empire and fuel their industrial revolution. At least Russia left the Latvians with forestry. They call it their national treasure. Not even taking anything else into account, it would be impossible to put a value on forestry lost alone. What happened to Ireland and the Irish nation was a nightmare on any scale of measurement.
They left us with ground rent, mass emigration, millions of dead, sick and poor and a population a fraction of the size of Holland with 3 times the land, the Catholic Church and Fianna Fail. And funnily enough I don't hold it against ordinary British citizens. I hate the ignorant instead and those who delight in being proud of or dismissing historic wrongs as insignificant.

Doc Ruby

KeithAFC wrote: »

Plus 1641 and 1798. The accusations of genocide towards the British can be put towards the Irish too.

Oh gosh, invaders put to the sword. Oh woe is me. When you stand on someone's neck long enough, don't be surprised when they bite your damn leg off.

KeithAFC

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh gosh, invaders put to the sword. Oh woe is me. When you stand on someone's neck long enough, don't be surprised when they bite your damn leg off.

I don't see what that has got to do with my point.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Yeah, because we really want English MP's to be dictating Irish affairs like they do in the rest of the UK. Thanks, but no thanks. I enjoy my freedom (well, what's left of it anyway).

You mean English MPs like Tony Blair or Gordon Brown? Maybe even David Cameron?

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Well thats a shock. I was expecting a "But the Belgians...."

emmmm...the thread title is "Time to bow before the Queen"? When Gerry becomes either a Queen or the Queen of across the water, it may be a relevant point. Until then, however......

Well, Gerry did take up paid employment of the queen.

Actually, the relevance is that British people of today played any part in the empire, however, people like you who voluntarily chose to support the IRA are in no position whatsoever to start spouting your morally superior bull****.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

I'll put that in again -



(my bold & underline)

I'd say 400,000 to 500,000 civillians killed as reprisals gets a mention there, certainly. Now you can argue - when we get to it - the millions of famine deaths in the late 1870's due to British policy, but direct massacres? I think not.

Just as a matter of interest, how has that anything to do with the fact it was carried out on behalf of the British Empire?



Yep, yez were just there to do good. The "white mans burden". And if all the most fertile land is seized by colonists and untold thousands kicked out along the way, and those who resist or protest shot down like dogs in the street, sure that's an awful thing thats really the natives fault. Even Churchill was taken aback at the way the Kenyans were treated on occassion.

The idea that it was a civil war went out with Empire apologia....though I suppose if you're still apologising for the Empire you never got that memo either.

Here's a few fanzines for you...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Histories-Hanged-Britains-Dirty-Empire/dp/0297847198

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-Reckoning-Untold-Story-Britains/dp/0805080015/ref=pd_cp_b_0

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Late-Victorian-Holocausts-Famines-Making/dp/1859843824/ref=reg_hu-rd_add_1_dp

great, you can read.

Maybe you should read discworld, then you could start quoting facts about how the world is actually carried by elephants.

HavingCrack

I know it's only a boards poll but only 44% against :eek:. While something like that ever happening is pretty much non existent is there really anywhere near that much neo-unionism around?

woodoo

psychward wrote: »

I hate the ignorant instead and those who delight in being proud of or dismissing historic wrongs as insignificant.

Good statement and it seems to be shot down by people as feeling sorry for ourselves or victimhood.

We should have a proper commemoration but we should also move on. The present day British are not to blame.

Doc Ruby

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't see what that has got to do with my point.

So one group of people that were murdered and brutalised returning the favour makes no never mind to you.

HavingCrack wrote: »

I know it's only a boards poll but only 44% against :eek:. While something like that ever happening is pretty much non existent is there really anywhere near that much neo-unionism around?

No, its the nod squad in action again, having heard that boards is the place to be. For example, I have not voted in such a patently retarded poll.

woodoo wrote: »

The present day British are not to blame.

Aboslutely. However if the present day british want to make an issue of it, they can expect no less than their asses served up to them on a plate.

Fratton Fred

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh gosh, invaders put to the sword. Oh woe is me. When you stand on someone's neck long enough, don't be surprised when they bite your damn leg off.

1641 was an act of genocide commited against settlers. The only genocide commited on this island.

In short, the Irish are no better than the British.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Well, Gerry did take up paid employment of the queen.

Actually, the relevance is that British people of today played any part in the empire, ...........

So theres nobody alive that contributed to what happened in Kenya, Aden, NI etc and theres no problem* with admitting that the whole Imperial enterprise was wrong? No one in the 1990's covered up those killings in Malaysia? That Iraqi fella wasn't kicked around the place on a British helicopter on the way to a "secret" prison?

*Except for yourself, of course.

Fratton Fred wrote:

people like you who voluntarily chose to support the IRA

Let's say that I support the Nepalese Maoists, Arsenal FC and like the X Factor as well. Precisely how would that impact on (a) any of the facts I've related (b) the morality of an Empire (c) the desirability of joining a constitutional monarchy that has never fully acknowledged the wrongs its done world wide?

Fratton Fred wrote:

great, you can read.

Maybe you should read discworld, then you could start quoting facts about how the world is actually carried by elephants.

A terrifyingly in-depth rebuttal, particularily with regard to the dead and displaced No doubt historians of India and Kenya are revising their positions in it's light.

lividduck

Fratton Fred wrote: »

1641 was an act of genocide commited against settlers. The only genocide commited on this island.

In short, the Irish are no better than the British.

Admit it you are Ian64

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean English MPs like Tony Blair or Gordon Brown? Maybe even David Cameron?

I mean, the 89% of the UK parliament which is made up of MP's based in England. English MP's have an extreme influence in UK politics. I do not want them to dictate any affairs of Ireland. It's quite simple really.

KeithAFC

I think the Irish government should have a referendum put to the Irish people on rejoining the United Kingdom. There does seem to be some support growing for it.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think the Irish government should have a referendum put to the Irish people on rejoining the United Kingdom. There does seem to be some support growing for it.

What support? There's no support for it. There's no political parties in Ireland running on the idea of joining the UK, and if they did - they would be destroyed in the elections.

We don't want to be a part of the UK.

youreadthis

dlofnep wrote: »

I mean, the 89% of the UK parliament which is made up of MP's based in England. English MP's have an extreme influence in UK politics. I do not want them to dictate any affairs of Ireland. It's quite simple really.

That's because England is bigger and has by far the biggest population. It's logical it will have more MP's than Wales. Splitting everything 25% would be obscene. The real answer is for England to be devolved into regions, which is something desperately needed. Areas of Scotland and Wales should probably be further devolved too.

dlofnep

youreadthis wrote: »

That's because England is bigger and has by far the biggest population. It's logical it will have more MP's than Wales. Splitting everything 25% would be obscene.

Joining a union, where one country dictates the majority of the affairs would be obscene. I was outlining the reasons why I would not want to join the UK. It is valid.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

What support? There's no support for it. There's no political parties in Ireland running on the idea of joining the UK, and if they did - they would be destroyed in the elections.

We don't want to be a part of the UK.

Perhaps not a majority but this thread has a decent number saying yes. We seen the support the Queen got last year from people in Cork. If her life wasn't under threat from dissident threats, thousands of people could have been out to see her. I think there is support for it. I would like to see just how much.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Perhaps not a majority but this thread has a decent number saying yes. We seen the support the Queen got last year from people in Cork. If her life wasn't under threat from dissident threats, thousands of people could have been out to see her. I think there is support for it. I would like to see just how much.

Boards is not an accurate reflection of the views of the Irish public. There is no support for joining the UK, I assure you. Being courteous to the British Queen, and wanting to join the UK are two different things. You're under a serious illusion if you think the Irish public want to be a part of a union like the UK.