Time to bow before the queen?

steddyeddy

Right it seems to have turned into a debate about the famine being genocide or not. Thats a matter of opinion the only thing Ill say about it was that the British response to it was incompetent to say the least.

I would view inaction as a direct attempt to reduce population indeed some of the attitudes of those in positions of power at the time seemed to back that up "The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated... The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."

So genocide or not being under british rule at the time seemed to make things worse.

One good act I always like to remember is the donation by the choctaw people to the Irish during the famine. Any acts of relief by the british at this time in my opinion are nothing to shout about because it was sort of their responsibility to give relief not a charatible act. They ruled this country during a famine and in many cases made things worse. Thats my view on the famine.


Now I have to make clear that I dont hate the british in fact I like the british people, in general their very friendly and I have many British friends. Saying that I believe colianilism was an evil of the past and it should remain that way. The effect it had on indiginous peoples is still seen today. Im not just talking about the British but the belgiums, the french and any other colonial power you can think of. That was all in the past and we shouldnt dwell on but It would be an insult for a country to return to rule under any of those former colonial powers. So for that reason Im out!

MoonDancer

Not a f*ckin hope in hell!!!
The war us Irish had to go through to keep our land for us against the british... not a hope!!!

Nodin

xsiborg wrote: »

well i gave you examples there of how EU legislation has destroyed our fishing and agriculture industries, surely we can agree that was ingrained in our culture?
.

Those aren't examples of erosion of culture or "identity". You'll also find that small farming has declined Europe wide.

xsiborg wrote: »

sovereignty means fannyadams to me Nodin tbh, you put it to me would i rather not see us align ourselves with the Franco-German alliance as opposed to an alliance to Britain. i tried to outline my reasons why i wouldnt..

Well this is the thing - one minute it means "fannyadams" to you and the next it's "French and German overlords". I find your mixed messages somewhat confusing.

xsiborg wrote: »

i would still consider myself irish, and we're obviously speaking hypothetically here as it's never going to happen, but the english still consider themselves english if you get me? just under british government rule and british government policies, and they dont bend to the will of the EU quite as easily as the irish government have done.

So you aren't actually worried about Irish identity, culture and being dragged into the 21st century? Again, I'm confused as to your reasoning.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know what Cromwell was about.

May I suggest you look at wider European history at the same time.

Have a read of the atrocities thread on the history forum.

I'm fully aware of European history at the time. I've never made a claim of exceptalionism, either in terms of time or scale. Quite the opposite, in fact.

BWatson wrote:

If this man thinks the massacre of tens of thousands is something to celebrate.

Something under 4,000 would be a realistic figure.

FrattonFred wrote:

The only reason it is spoken of so often in Ireland is for political reasons.

...or, far more likely, because of its long lasting impact on culture and the demographics of the country.

woodoo

steddyeddy wrote: »

Now I have to make clear that I dont hate the british in fact I like the british people, in general their very friendly and I have many British friends. Saying that I believe colianilism was an evil of the past and it should remain that way. The effect it had on indiginous peoples is still seen today. Im not just talking about the British but the belgiums, the french and any other colonial power you can think of. That was all in the past and we shouldnt dwell on but It would be an insult for a country to return to rule under any of those former colonial powers. So for that reason Im out!

And they are all so proud of their past conquests. Maybe its easier to put to the back of their minds the suffering and murder/mayhem they caused the native people of these lands.

xsiborg

Nodin wrote: »

Those aren't examples of erosion of culture or "identity". You'll also find that small farming has declined Europe wide.

ok i cant really explain it any better Nodin, but you've just given an even better example of why joining the EU has decimated farming across europe, the EU agricultural policies have resulted in farmers getting paid very little for their produce, and then getting EU subsidies to leave land lying idle, and if you're not a big farmer producer, there's no money in farming so your children dont want to continue the farming tradition and so farming in ireland and as you say right across europe has declined. meanwhile we all know about the EU food mountains that are maintained in order to artificially inflate the price of food, and it's not going back into farmers pockets either.

genuine question- does this fall under the geneva conventions definition of suicide that the EU is capable of feeding the third world, yet chooses not to, because it would deflate the artificial market value of goods produced in the EU? effectively letting the third world starve, when the EU government is in a position to do something about it, yet chooses to do nothing?

could one then equate this to the way the british government treated the irish during the famine? as you posted earlier- who wants to be part of that?

Nodin wrote: »

Well this is the thing - one minute it means "fannyadams" to you and the next it's "French and German overlords". I find your mixed messages somewhat confusing.

sovereignty Nodin, means nothing to me, as in it's only a word to me. i just mean speaking purely from an economics perspective for the good of the country NOW, leaving aside all the history and what not, because how many nationalities live in ireland now? it's not as if we are exclusively an irish nation any more.

Nodin wrote: »

So you aren't actually worried about Irish identity, culture and being dragged into the 21st century? Again, I'm confused as to your reasoning.

i am actually worried about it, and that's why im saying as we move closer and closer to being integrated into the EU, we become just a tiny "do as you're told" island on the edge of a super-state ruled by france and germany, which as another poster earlier pointed out, are not as progressive as you might think. they are more interested in keeping themselves progressive at the expense of the other EU countries, and that scares me more than the thought of aligning ourselves with our closest geographical neighbours and still our biggest trade market, and with whom we have a hell of a lot more in common with than the rest of the EU.

it's more the direction we're being dragged in Nodin that i have a problem with, and i would've seen Britain as the lesser of two evils so to speak, and i dont mean evil in the hyperbolic sense of the word before anyone jumps on that!

galwayrush

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently, popcorn has an indefinite shelf life. So you can stock-up and it'll never go bad!
You'll probably expire before it does.

True, but i underetimated the tonnage i needed....:o

Nodin

xsiborg wrote: »

ok i cant (.......)either.!

That's one view of the situatiomn with regard to farming. It has nothing to do with "culture" and "identity" which is what you raised.

xsiborg wrote: »

genuine question- does this fall under the geneva conventions definition of suicide that the EU is capable of feeding the third world, yet chooses not to, because it would deflate the artificial market value of goods produced in the EU? effectively letting the third world starve, when the EU government is in a position to do something about it, yet chooses to do nothing?.

It's genocide and no.

xsiborg wrote: »

sovereignty Nodin, means nothing to me, as in it's only a word to me.?.

Yet you extensively bemoaned the loss of it earlier.

xsiborg wrote: »

i just mean speaking purely from an economics perspective for the good of the country NOW, leaving aside all the history and what not, because how many nationalities live in ireland now? it's not as if we are exclusively an irish nation any more..?.

The economic power in Western Europe is Germany. Once more, you give reasons yet avoid following the logic.

xsiborg wrote: »

i am actually worried about it, and that's why im saying as we move closer and closer to being integrated into the EU, we become just a tiny "do as you're told" island on the edge of a super-state ruled by france and germany, which as another poster earlier pointed out, are not as progressive as you might think. they are more interested in keeping themselves progressive at the expense of the other EU countries,
...

So you advocate we become a tiny "do as you're told" Island ruled by the neighbouring less wealthy country.....Again, giving reasons but not following the logic.

xsiborg wrote: »

and that scares me more than the thought of aligning ourselves with our closest geographical neighbours and still our biggest trade market, and with whom we have a hell of a lot more in common with than the rest of the EU.
...

So you think we have insufficient cultural identity to be marked as different from the British, yet seem to think it exists in sufficient strength to have been eroded by the EU....And you seem to have forgotten the whole "dragged into the 21st century" case you were making earlier.

scamalert

MoonDancer wrote: »

Not a f*ckin hope in hell!!!
The war us Irish had to go through to keep our land for us against the british... not a hope!!!

yeah and there wasnt any lube back then either,so the pain you had to go through,you must still feel it if you live in that era still.

forfuxsake

scamalert wrote: »

yeah and there wasnt any lube back then either,so the pain you had to go through,you must still feel it if you live in that era still.

Nonsense, lube has been around since Adam used Cain's blood to take Eve up the wrong'un.

xsiborg

Nodin wrote: »

That's one view of the situatiomn with regard to farming. It has nothing to do with "culture" and "identity" which is what you raised.



It's genocide and no.



Yet you extensively bemoaned the loss of it earlier.



The economic power in Western Europe is Germany. Once more, you give reasons yet avoid following the logic.



So you advocate we become a tiny "do as you're told" Island ruled by the neighbouring less wealthy country.....Again, giving reasons but not following the logic.



So you think we have insufficient cultural identity to be marked as different from the British, yet seem to think it exists in sufficient strength to have been eroded by the EU....And you seem to have forgotten the whole "dragged into the 21st century" case you were making earlier.

i dunno Nodin, at this stage im going to have to bow out of this one, i dont think any of us are going to see eye to eye on anything and this thread is going to go round and round in circles...

Nodin

forfuxsake wrote: »

Nonsense, lube has been around since Adam used Cain's blood to take Eve up the wrong'un.

Thats what the Protestants believe. Catholics reckon it was the other way around. The Great Anal Schism is one of reasons the Ecumenical dream will fail.

scamalert

until some people will live in the past,nothing will change,either way theres no borders now or anything blocking any people from moving from one side of country to another,so if evolution is intact eventually those old ones gonna die off,and the rest gonna get used to the idea that Irish or British no matter are the same people on the same group of islands

Mance Rayder

Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the British done for us?

lividduck

CiscoStudent wrote: »

Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the British done for us?

Law, eh , um they gave us our legal system....
eh Railways, they left us the rail system...:D

LordSutch

Our DNA?

lividduck

LordSutch wrote: »

Our DNA?

Dont be silly! the vikings and the normans gave us that, thats what makes us pure Irish-ish:D

CiscoStudent

CiscoStudent wrote: »

Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the British done for us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

steddyeddy

CiscoStudent wrote: »

Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the British done for us?

Can you prove that we wouldnt have developed that anyway? The irish have contriubuted to the all of those areas in profound ways.

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Our DNA?

Define British dna?

HavingCrack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Can you prove that we wouldnt have developed that anyway? The irish have contriubuted to the all of those areas in profound ways.

This is actually an aspect of 19th and 20th century (in particular) colonialism worldwide that can be quite an uncomfortable topic depending on your point of view. Can the evils of colonialism sometimes be outweighed by its 'positives'? For the vast majority of native peoples colonialism was a disaster but as you point out did their countries develop technologically faster as a result?

If North America was never colonialised would it have remained as a bit of a backwater or would the Native Americans reached modern Western technology in the same time period? The whole topic can have undertones of racism etc. if it is allowed to.

In the case of Ireland it's impossible to say. At what period is the point of divergence from the current timeline? Is it as far back as Strongbow and the Normans? The Plantations? 1798 Rebellion? etc.

HavingCrack

lividduck wrote: »

Dont be silly! the vikings and the normans gave us that, thats what makes us pure Irish-ish:D

Actually being slightly nerdy, the vast majority of Irish genes can be traced back to the original Mesolithic settlers in Ireland. The Viking/Norman/English influences are very small in the scheme of things (slightly more significant in the East for obvious reasons but still relatively low).

forfuxsake

HavingCrack wrote: »

Actually being slightly nerdy, the vast majority of Irish genes can be traced back to the original Mesolithic settlers in Ireland. The Viking/Norman/English influences are very small in the scheme of things (slightly more significant in the East for obvious reasons but still relatively low).

Would that be them'ins from Scotland? Anyway it's horse**** as the Mesolithic were ugly, inbred, lazy and frightened of their mothers.

Dyr

HavingCrack wrote: »

Actually being slightly nerdy, the vast majority of Irish genes can be traced back to the original Mesolithic settlers in Ireland. The Viking/Norman/English influences are very small in the scheme of things (slightly more significant in the East for obvious reasons but still relatively low).

For christs sake dont be telling people that, sure we're mongrels, we've always been multicultural blah blah

lividduck

forfuxsake wrote: »

Would that be them'ins from Scotland? Anyway it's horse**** as the Mesolithic were ugly, inbred, lazy and frightened of their mothers.

Not in the least like your typical Irish Male then!:D

steddyeddy

Jesus to the irish as a nation have low self esteem or something?

lividduck

CiscoStudent wrote: »

Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the British done for us?

Well the ONLY time we were ever a United Ireland was under British Rule.;)

KeithAFC

lividduck wrote: »

Well the ONLY time we were ever a United Ireland was under British Rule.;)

Which is the ironic thing about the whole thing.

CiscoStudent

CiscoStudent wrote: »

Apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the British done for us?

Don't forget they gave us our biggest export market.

steddyeddy

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't forget they gave us our biggest export market.

I hope your not implying the British gave us agriculture??

Galwayguy35

lividduck wrote: »

Well the ONLY time we were ever a United Ireland was under British Rule.;)

So thats your defination of "united", under a foreign ruler? Strange..
For me the only time the country was fully united was under Rory O Connor, even though it was for only a short period. JMO though.

m0ynihan

If the queen was Kate Middleton... gladly

Mickeroo

lividduck wrote: »

Well the ONLY time we were ever a United Ireland was under British Rule.;)

Did Ireland EVER exist as a fully fledged nation before the last century? Isn't the whole idea of sovereign nations as they exist today something that only really came about in the last 3 or 4 hundred years? Genuine questons.

lividduck

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So thats your defination of "united", under a foreign ruler? Strange..
For me the only time the country was fully united was under Rory O Connor, even though it was for only a short period. JMO though.

Ireland wasn't united under Rory O'Connor.
For definitions of "United" I suggest you look up a dictionary.

HavingCrack

Mickeroo wrote: »

Did Ireland EVER exist as a fully fledged nation before the last century? Isn't the whole idea of sovereign nations as they exist today something that only really came about in the last 3 or 4 hundred years? Genuine questons.

Ireland was never fully united as an independent state under anyone, I think Brian Boru got the closest.

The idea of the 'nation state' is very modern in the span of human history, particularly in Europe. Up until WW1 multi-ethnic and multi-religious empires were the norm -Austria-Hungry, Germany, Ottoman, Russian etc.

lividduck

Mickeroo wrote: »

Did Ireland EVER exist as a fully fledged nation before the last century? Isn't the whole idea of sovereign nations as they exist today something that only really came about in the last 3 or 4 hundred years? Genuine questons.

In a word yes

Nodin

steddyeddy wrote: »

Jesus to the irish as a nation have low self esteem or something?

You've noticed, then.

KeithAFC

Mickeroo wrote: »

Did Ireland EVER exist as a fully fledged nation before the last century? Isn't the whole idea of sovereign nations as they exist today something that only really came about in the last 3 or 4 hundred years? Genuine questons.

It is a lot of nonsense. Ireland had kings at one point too in history. Yet Irish Republicans would have you believe the Island was once United as a Republic before the "Brits" came along.

Of course when this is pointed out, you get no response back.

Freddie59

smash wrote: »

there's more to Ireland than NI you know.

Yeah - it's schizophrenic. The North; The Six Counties; "Ulster"; Northern Ireland......etc.

Galwayguy35

lividduck wrote: »

Ireland wasn't united under Rory O'Connor.
For definitions of "United" I suggest you look up a dictionary.

Im entitled to my view and dont need sarcastic comments thanks.

Galwayguy35

lividduck wrote: »

Ireland wasn't united under Rory O'Connor.
For definitions of "United" I suggest you look up a dictionary.

Im well aware what united means.

Nodin

KeithAFC wrote: »

It is a lot of nonsense. Ireland had kings at one point too in history. Yet Irish Republicans would have you believe the Island was once United as a Republic before the "Brits" came along.

We would?

KeithAFC

Nodin wrote: »

We would?

Talked to many Republicans up here in Ulster and they say we want our country united again. Nonsense is what it is.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Talked to many Republicans up here in Ulster and they say we want our country united again. Nonsense is what it is.

Yea thats very believable.

manutdfan0345

hahahaha TROLL

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea thats very believable.

You never met Republicans? I think everyone has.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

You never met Republicans? I think everyone has.

Keith to be perfectly honest with you I dont think a unionist with 9000 plus posts on an irish site has talked to many unionists either.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

Keith to be perfectly honest with you I dont think a unionist with 9000 plus posts on an irish site has talked to many unionists either.

Ok, I don't want to go off topic too much. But I don't understand this post? It is a quality forum for everyone.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ok, I don't want to go off topic too much. But I don't understand this post? It is a quality forum for everyone.

No problem then we can return to topic. Why would Ireland be better under Britian as opposed to america say? you also previously stated that america would be better under British rule. What would the benifit be?

steddyeddy

manutdfan0345 wrote: »

hahahaha TROLL

Dont worry its easy to stump him once you ask questions that arent to complex