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Catholic Traditions
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Thank you for taking the time to reply, though I can't for the life of me understand how we should be subject to the whims or judgement of a deity who violates the basic humane principle of standing up on our hind legs and rising above the level of a beast of burden, and taking sole responsibility for our actions. If that's the lowly standard he sets for mankind, is it any wonder we fail and get our lives so screwed up in following such immoral ideology?
I don't see how God does this. Simply put. This is our problem.
We've all done wrong, we've all turned our backs in God in one way or another and rejected Him, and done what was clearly immoral. As a result, we're guilty before Him and will be judged. That's no matter how many good works you do.
Simply put by way of an analogy. If I murdered someone, and if I lived a completely perfect life afterwards if that were possible. Am I still guilty of murder? - Yes, absolutely.
Likewise, if I have sinned in any way before God, I am still guilty of that sin no matter how many good works I do.
This is our problem. When we come before God at the end of time. We're all guilty. We all deserve to be condemned.
However, the good news is that God in His mercy sent Jesus into the world to pay penalty that we should have paid before God, on the cross. As a result those who believe and accept His mercy will be forgiven, whereas those who reject Him will be condemned. If you reject the means of forgiveness, one can't be forgiven. As a result of this forgiveness, we are born again. Dead to sin, and come to new life through Jesus' resurrection to live new lives living and speaking for Jesus in the here and now until His return.
There's nothing immoral about that. There's a lot immoral about turning our backs on Him though, even as He came to die in our place on the cross. That's what Christians remember this Good Friday.If you say that we are somehow still subject to God's judgement anyway, what use was all this stuff about Jesus 'saving' us? If the 'standards' of this imagined and baleful entity is to heap pain and death on someone else - especially their supposedly only begotten son - for another's evil and stupidity, what does that say? I'd call it pure evil, but it's a policy that many a king and priest have used to justify pure insanity and the furtherance of their selfish lust for powers over their peoples/slaves. To be tricked we have to accept trickery.
See above. - Jesus stood in our place on the cross so that we can be forgiven.
Call it pure evil if you want. I don't particularly care for what any king or priest may or may not say. I do care about God's word though and making sure that it is known at the very least.
The main point of the Christian message is that we've done wrong and we can be freed through Jesus' death and resurrection. By the by, that is even true for kings, rulers, the wealthy as well as the desperately poor, all need to come to Jesus and trust in Him alone for their salvation.We know that the festival of Easter is a pagan-origined sun-worship cult, linked with the pagan fertility goddess Eostre, from which we derive the word for the female hormone oestrogen, and that the date set for Easter Sunday is set by astrology and based on lunar cycles. It's a very primitive system of deity worship, so how would it tie in with Jesus unless his Judaism was also primitive? Surely we know better today? Does religion not allow for improvement in understanding, or do we have to always follow rote behaviour even if we know better?
Not really. That may have been the case before Jesus Christ.
However, historically Jesus was crucified on the Jewish passover. There's a number of historical accounts that back this event up outside of the New Testament. So, Jesus' crucifixion happened at this time of year, therefore it is entirely valid to commemorate it at this point.
If you don't want to, sure, do what you will. I'm here simply to explain the Christian message.There is no way that man could have paid for ones own sin, because man is ultimately guilty.
This sounds quite a lot like the excuses we've been hearing for the collapse of the banking system and the loss of credibility in the churches, and as long as we accept feeble excuses like this we remain as puppets, and deserve no better than be abused all over again. It looks like we have been brainwashed to accept abuse by literally following the 'turn the other cheek' dogma. If I can't pay my debt, why on earth should I expect someone else to pay it, or at least not until we agree how and when I might pay it back?That's not up to outside parties to decide.
I don't understand what you mean by 'ultimately guilty'. Guilty of what? I'm not responsible for what others do, just my own actions and inactions.
I don't know why you are bringing the banking system into this. As much as I need to understand that Jesus came into the world to save us, bankers, bureaucrats, up to the wealthiest, and down to the poorest individuals amongst us can find forgiveness in Jesus.
There's no "excuse". If you have sinned, you are guilty. There's no way you can put that right with God in and of your own effort. Ultimately it comes down to accepting that Jesus came to save us, and that you can be forgiven. Likewise, there will be no "excuse" for rejecting Him when He returns.
Unless you're telling me that you've never done anything wrong in your life, then you're guilty before God of violating His standards in His world, just as I am. It is for that reason that we need forgiveness, the freedom from the sinful nature that Jesus can give us.I agree, there are just laws and unjust laws, and laws should be a tool in the acquisition of justice, but nonsensical rules and laws that are based on belief and fantasy, and not logic or common sense, will cause injustice, which is what we see a lot of today. I would ask as to how we can 'turn the other cheek' and believe that a man who was flogged and nailed up on a certain date 2000 or so years ago, be remotely considered as 'moral', as it's all about abuse? If Gof can justify this, what else can it excuse?
There's nothing all that nonsensical about this as far as I can tell. Perhaps you can explain to me more thoroughly how my answer doesn't make sense.
Jesus' death shocks because it is a man who never did any wrong, putting Himself in the place of you and I for forgiveness. He chose freely to do so on our behalf, because He loved us, because He wanted to see us live eternally with Him rather than be condemned to hell.
It's an account of God's love for man. I don't see what is immoral about that, ultimately, it is beautiful. Ultimately, Jesus conquered the grave, and in doing so as Christians we died to sin and came to new life in Him.That's my point on morality, doing the right and just thing. Running away and hoping that a deity who supposedly allowed his son to be murdered by the people he made and designed, and will inexplicably wipe your evil and thoughtless actions like some sort of magic duster, is an abandonment of moral precepts. That's not morality. In fact it's the complete opposite.
To my way of looking at it, this is the worst kind of thinking possible, as it is blatantly opposed to any sense of rational thinking. Sure, accept that you did wrong, and choose not to do it again, and stop excusing bad behaviour, is the right and very simple path of humane thinking, as it is just and fair. This transference of responsibility to unseen forces is simply a cop out. Our nation is psychologically tainted by it.
God intended for Jesus to die, and to rise again so that we might be forgiven. That's a beautiful truth and I will stick by it, irrespective of what you might say about me.
Explain to me what this "rational thinking" you are talking about is. I think that the rational thing to do in the light of the Gospel is to accept Jesus and follow Him rather than reject it. Perhaps that's just me, I don't know.Theoreticaly yes, if there is a clear distinction between both. Not if the State is founded under the authority of the Christian God, which this State is. Have you read the preamble to the Irish Constitution?
I have. I'm not under that jurisdiction any longer. Just because the Constitution claims something doesn't mean it is so.
You're confusing human authority with God's ultimate authority. Humans were given dominion by God over His creation. They are to legislate, to keep order, to manage the livestock and the land, to keep this world and use it for their purposes in a responsible manner.
However, ultimately this world is His, and everything in it, and He has the last call when we come before Him in judgement.
It isn't a case of human authority vs God's authority. It's that humans have limited authority given to them by God.A 'state' like Ireland, or any other, is a legal fiction, something willed into existence by human minds. It has no capacity to act or do anything of its own accord, and acts through laws and policies supposedly generated by or on behalf of the inhabitants of that piece of land over which it claims jurisdiction. The Irish State is ruled under the power of the Christian Holy Trinity, and the agencies of that Trinity must therefore be the Government, police, army, educational system or any other agency given licence to exert influence over the minds and management of the public at large.
It claims to be ruled under the power of God. Which is true ultimately. It doesn't mean that man will ultimately reflect God's standard though.A deity/god, or any other such believed-in thing, is a religious fiction, something willed into existence by religious and believing minds. If mankind ceased to exist, so would the notion of deities. It or they have no capacity to act or do anything of their own accord, and act through laws and policies generated by or on behalf of the members of that practice, and by consequence, the assets over which that corporation claims jurisdiction. The Christian god, through its various priesthoods and followers, claims right over the whole Universe, and that all must be brought under its rule, which we see in so many counties throughout history and to the present day. They don't operate under the will of the people, but the people are subject to their dogmas and laws, which is unfair and therefore unjust.
That's an assumption I'm afraid. How do you account for our existence by the by? I'm just curious to know.
I don't think God is unfair or unjust. God has simply given us His standards because He cares for us and wants the very best for us in this world. That's quite simple.The Church of Rome is a non-democratic external agency acting in the name of a religious fiction called 'God', claiming rights to act outside the laws of the State but existing as an influential agency within the lands of the State, but as that State is already founded on the supposed will of the deity anyway, they see no demarcation in where one level of authority begins and the other ends. This explains the lack of respect they have for any notion of democracy, which is supposed to be government of the people for the common good by way of individual responsibility and rational will. Religion contradicts the democratic principle by asserting that some third party must take the blame for another's actions. This is also why the business of the State must stop on astrologically determined dates for religious festivals and deity worship, as the god might be offended. Is this not how it is? If I'm incorrect, please let me know what you think.
I'm an evangelical Christian. I personally don't care what you claim about the RCC. I argue solely for Biblical Christianity on boards.ie. I.E - I put Jesus first before any human institution. So forgive me if I don't have the most to say about that particular church.OK, so which takes precedence, State law or God's law? If I punch you in the face, won't you call the Gardaí? And rightly so if I do that evil act, but according to God''s law you must turn the other cheek and allow me to hit you again. Which law takes precedence in your view and in this situation?
'God's' law to me is not democratic, as it's dogma, can't move, as it's a one way street and he/it has complete limited liability in making good any damage done, so how can two such parties seek equity under any form of judgement? There is no point in telling me that some form of celestial justice might be provided on some as yet undetermined day of judgement, as it has nothing to back it up and justice should be dispensed quickly, as delay causes even further resentment, which compounds the insult.
God's standards are ultimately what I seek after first.
God's law isn't democratic I agree. It's based on His will. Truth isn't democratic either. No matter how much we all wish that we could fly after jumping out of our top windows, we still won't be able to do it
I don't care if God's standards are democratic. I can be assured that insofar as God has created all things, I can trust that He knows what is best for me, and for all mankind. I trust in Him because He has shown me His goodness personally through the saving grace of Jesus on the cross.We can't go around dispensing forgiveness on behalf of other injured parties, and then wash our hands and act as though it didn't happen. You or I can choose to forgive whoever does us wrong, but have no right beyond that, so why would Jesus even dream of jumping in and doing such a thing, as it's completely immoral and unjust? If he was a moral and just man who gave sensible and useful rules to live by, and advised people to stop excusing bad behaviour and take responsibility for themselves, I'd shake his hand, but to allegedly come along and say that you should tolerate abuse is not right at all. To me, this is Morality 101 material, so he was either mad or misquoted.
We can't - God can. It's really that simple. The reason we can't is because we're guilty. Jesus was absolutely blameless.0 -
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Ok, which God are you talking about ? Allah, Buddah,Lucifer?philologos wrote: »I don't see how God does this. Simply put. This is our problem.
We've all done wrong, we've all turned our backs in God in one way or another and rejected Him, and done what was clearly immoral. As a result, we're guilty before Him and will be judged. That's no matter how many good works you do.
Simply put by way of an analogy. If I murdered someone, and if I lived a completely perfect life afterwards if that were possible. Am I still guilty of murder? - Yes, absolutely.
Likewise, if I have sinned in any way before God, I am still guilty of that sin no matter how many good works I do.
This is our problem. When we come before God at the end of time. We're all guilty. We all deserve to be condemned.
However, the good news is that God in His mercy sent Jesus into the world to pay penalty that we should have paid before God, on the cross. As a result those who believe and accept His mercy will be forgiven, whereas those who reject Him will be condemned. If you reject the means of forgiveness, one can't be forgiven. As a result of this forgiveness, we are born again. Dead to sin, and come to new life through Jesus' resurrection to live new lives living and speaking for Jesus in the here and now until His return.
There's nothing immoral about that. There's a lot immoral about turning our backs on Him though, even as He came to die in our place on the cross. That's what Christians remember this Good Friday.
See above. - Jesus stood in our place on the cross so that we can be forgiven.
Call it pure evil if you want. I don't particularly care for what any king or priest may or may not say. I do care about God's word though and making sure that it is known at the very least.
The main point of the Christian message is that we've done wrong and we can be freed through Jesus' death and resurrection. By the by, that is even true for kings, rulers, the wealthy as well as the desperately poor, all need to come to Jesus and trust in Him alone for their salvation.
Not really. That may have been the case before Jesus Christ.
However, historically Jesus was crucified on the Jewish passover. There's a number of historical accounts that back this event up outside of the New Testament. So, Jesus' crucifixion happened at this time of year, therefore it is entirely valid to commemorate it at this point.
If you don't want to, sure, do what you will. I'm here simply to explain the Christian message.
I don't know why you are bringing the banking system into this. As much as I need to understand that Jesus came into the world to save us, bankers, bureaucrats, up to the wealthiest, and down to the poorest individuals amongst us can find forgiveness in Jesus.
There's no "excuse". If you have sinned, you are guilty. There's no way you can put that right with God in and of your own effort. Ultimately it comes down to accepting that Jesus came to save us, and that you can be forgiven. Likewise, there will be no "excuse" for rejecting Him when He returns.
Unless you're telling me that you've never done anything wrong in your life, then you're guilty before God of violating His standards in His world, just as I am. It is for that reason that we need forgiveness, the freedom from the sinful nature that Jesus can give us.
There's nothing all that nonsensical about this as far as I can tell. Perhaps you can explain to me more thoroughly how my answer doesn't make sense.
Jesus' death shocks because it is a man who never did any wrong, putting Himself in the place of you and I for forgiveness. He chose freely to do so on our behalf, because He loved us, because He wanted to see us live eternally with Him rather than be condemned to hell.
It's an account of God's love for man. I don't see what is immoral about that, ultimately, it is beautiful. Ultimately, Jesus conquered the grave, and in doing so as Christians we died to sin and came to new life in Him.
God intended for Jesus to die, and to rise again so that we might be forgiven. That's a beautiful truth and I will stick by it, irrespective of what you might say about me.
Explain to me what this "rational thinking" you are talking about is. I think that the rational thing to do in the light of the Gospel is to accept Jesus and follow Him rather than reject it. Perhaps that's just me, I don't know.
I have. I'm not under that jurisdiction any longer. Just because the Constitution claims something doesn't mean it is so.
You're confusing human authority with God's ultimate authority. Humans were given dominion by God over His creation. They are to legislate, to keep order, to manage the livestock and the land, to keep this world and use it for their purposes in a responsible manner.
However, ultimately this world is His, and everything in it, and He has the last call when we come before Him in judgement.
It isn't a case of human authority vs God's authority. It's that humans have limited authority given to them by God.
It claims to be ruled under the power of God. Which is true ultimately. It doesn't mean that man will ultimately reflect God's standard though.
That's an assumption I'm afraid. How do you account for our existence by the by? I'm just curious to know.
I don't think God is unfair or unjust. God has simply given us His standards because He cares for us and wants the very best for us in this world. That's quite simple.
I'm an evangelical Christian. I personally don't care what you claim about the RCC. I argue solely for Biblical Christianity on boards.ie. I.E - I put Jesus first before any human institution. So forgive me if I don't have the most to say about that particular church.
God's standards are ultimately what I seek after first.
God's law isn't democratic I agree. It's based on His will. Truth isn't democratic either. No matter how much we all wish that we could fly after jumping out of our top windows, we still won't be able to do it
I don't care if God's standards are democratic. I can be assured that insofar as God has created all things, I can trust that He knows what is best for me, and for all mankind. I trust in Him because He has shown me His goodness personally through the saving grace of Jesus on the cross.
We can't - God can. It's really that simple. The reason we can't is because we're guilty. Jesus was absolutely blameless.
As for the rest of your post , well since jesus if he ever existed was probably a homosexual jewish communist and God whoever she could be clearly doesn't exist, your post is consequently irrellavent!0 -
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philologos wrote: »God intended for Jesus to die, and to rise again so that we might be forgiven. That's a beautiful truth and I will stick by it, irrespective of what you might say about me.
I'm not really saying anything about you at all, just the ideas like these. You are the one telling us all about how you think and don't think by what you write. In anyone's book, the idea above is intentional and premidated murder or at least culpable homicide, which goes against his own laws, making him a hypocrite, but if you think salvation can come from that, best of luck, as it can't, as the ideas behind it are preverse.philologos wrote: »God's standards are ultimately what I seek after first. God's law isn't democratic I agree. It's based on His will. Truth isn't democratic either. No matter how much we all wish that we could fly after jumping out of our top windows, we still won't be able to do it
I don't care if God's standards are democratic.
I rest my case, and have nothing further to add. What you are stating is that this deity doesn't really care what his pet people think. You've just confirmed my until now reserved judgement of whether or not there might be some value in Christianity as some sort of at least well intended outlook.
Anyone who is so messed up as to imagine they can fly out of a window, is definitely for the birds anyway, and that's the truth. Truth is completely democratic, as you get what you deserve by following it, and you get what you deserve by not following it. The truth is that you can't fly on your own anyway, and if you choose to do so, then you will most likely die when you hit the ground, and that's an obvious truth, unlike the belief idea that you can fly in the first place.
Belief in the unbelievable is not truth, or even closely related to it, as it's just make-believe. To think and act according to truthful fact is a choice exercised in the mind of any actual human, and depends on no string-pulling activities of any baleful deity. Anyone who lays down in and ideology that supplicates to the bizarre and the ridiculous, will rise up with the dust of such invention attached to them, making their origins obvious to all others.0 -
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