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Catholic Traditions
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I believe that if a person is a member of a church where their current cardinal made child sexual abuse victims swear an oath to secrecy then by continuing to remain in that church they are giving tacit approval to his and the church's actions.
You think because I'm a catholic I am responsible for what every other catholic does or what some priests have done? How is me leaving the catholic church going to make a difference?0 -
By leaving you choose to disassociate yourself from the actions of your current Cardinal, by staying you accept that he and the church were correct to force the child victims of sexual abuse to swear an oath secrecy in order to protect Fr. Brendan Smyth.You think because I'm a catholic I am responsible for what every other catholic does or what some priests have done? How is me leaving the catholic church going to make a difference?0 -
By leaving you choose to disassociate yourself from the actions of your current Cardinal, by staying you accept that he and the church were correct to force the child victims of sexual abuse to swear an oath secrecy in order to protect Fr. Brendan Smyth.
That's their sins not mine, why should I leave because of what others did. Is this the view you take on everything you don't agree with?0 -
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No it is not the view I take on all things I dislike.That's their sins not mine, why should I leave because of what others did. Is this the view you take on everything you don't agree with?
It is however the view of I have in relation to child sexual abuse and those who chose to remain members of an institution whose members engaged in it, covered it up, added to the pain of the victims and obstructed state investigations and statutory inquiries.
If you hold a different viewpoint on the membership of such an institution that is your right.0 -
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No it is not the view I take on all things I dislike.
It is however the view of I have in relation to child sexual abuse and those who chose to remain members of an institution whose members engaged in it, covered it up, added to the pain of the victims and obstructed state investigations and statutory inquiries.
If you hold a different viewpoint on the membership of such an institution that is your right.
You still don't get it, I am not responsible for what others did, I cannot make decisions that affect my life based on the sins of others. We are all responsible for out own actions.
Are you trying to say I and other Catholics are as bad as them who committed these crimes?0 -
Only thing is, how will anyone change things or hold anyone to account by leaving the same institution?No it is not the view I take on all things I dislike.
It is however the view of I have in relation to child sexual abuse and those who chose to remain members of an institution whose members engaged in it, covered it up, added to the pain of the victims and obstructed state investigations and statutory inquiries.
If you hold a different viewpoint on the membership of such an institution that is your right.0 -
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I really dont know, thats between you and your consience. You wish to remain a catholic you do so in the full knowedge of the actions of your institution and your leaders, stay and support them by all means if that is what you want to do.You still don't get it, I am not responsible for what others did, I cannot make decisions that affect my life based on the sins of others. We are all responsible for out own actions.
Are you trying to say I and other Catholics are as bad as them who committed these crimes?0 -
I really dont know, thats between you and your consience. You wish to remain a catholic you do so in the full knowedge of the actions of your institution and your leaders, stay and support them by all means if that is what you want to do.
I'm staying for me, not to support anyone. I can assure you my conscience is clear. Do you have any Catholic friends or relations?0 -
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Well Gerry appartently this is what happens when someone tries to change things from within.Only thing is, how will anyone change things or hold anyone to account by leaving the same institution?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20565978190 -
senorwipesalot wrote: »This thread didnt turn out as expected.
I was hoping for some light hearted banter about fish or hot cross buns.
Never mix hot cross buns and fish - they really don't go well together, especially when you use mackerel or sardines.0 -
Only thing is, how will anyone change things or hold anyone to account by leaving the same institution?
Good question, but sitting on their hands and doing nothing will only serve to keep things ticking along until it is all let pass away as though it never really happened.
Having said all that, I do feel sorry for many decent people who have done the best they could to live as honestly as they could and thinking that the organisation they were part of was a just one. They rightly feel betrayed and conned, which they have been in the mosr sick of ways.
There are still a lot of deniers and excusers in this matter, who treat it like some sort of storm in a teacup, and there are others who may have only remotely imagined that such horrific stuff was going on right next door. Then again, it all depends on who is steering the ship, and it looks like it's being done from the usual crew up on the bridge.0 -
I'm staying for me, not to support anyone. I can assure you my conscience is clear. Do you have any Catholic friends or relations?
You do realise dont you that being a christian means you believe in the religion, being a catholic means you support the RRC and all of its representitives actions. That is the offical line of the Catholic church itself, they say if you are Catholic you are declaring your full support for all the church does.
The archbishop of Dublin said "Its great to see the numbers of people that are showing up to mass and showing support with how we have dealt with this issues regardless of what the media says".
By saying "I am a Caholic" you are saying you support everything every priest has done and that's the definition of it.0 -
By saying "I am a Caholic" you are saying you support everything every priest has done and that's the definition of it.
Nonsense. By saying you're a catholic you're saying you believe in the creed. Priests are human and can sin just like everyone else.
What you are saying is like saying to an Irishman that you support everything every Irish government official has ever done.0 -
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That's one of the worst comments I've seen in a long time. It's just utter anti-Catholic bigotry.
But the archbishop of Dublin said it himself on RTE. I'm not going to argue any more, Catholics will stay Catholic no matter what you say to them. I just think some people should learn what a religion means before they sign themselves up to it.0 -
That's one of the worst comments I've seen in a long time. It's just utter anti-Catholic bigotry.
It's a tricky area, but as many Roman Catholics don't seem to fully realise or think about what it means, they also give others the impression that they don't really understand what it means.
What exactly does being a member of the RCC mean to the everyday RC in the street? Do they know that the Nicene Creed, named aftet the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD and further ratified as in 381 AD, is essentially the same as for the Protestant and Eastern Orthodox Churches, apart from a piece called the filoque, which was inserted by the Western (Roman) Church in 589 AD.
The various churches fought both verbally and with armies for centuries over which version was 'right', but the Roman branch claimed and right of authority because of its unsubstantiated claim to the body of Peter, which is nowhere mentioned in the gospel texts. All Christians claim to be part of the 'catholic' church, but the ones aligned with the papacy are simply called 'Roman' Catholics, to distinguish them.0 -
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Apologies for the delay. I've been away for a bit.I'm not really saying anything about you at all, just the ideas like these. You are the one telling us all about how you think and don't think by what you write. In anyone's book, the idea above is intentional and premidated murder or at least culpable homicide, which goes against his own laws, making him a hypocrite, but if you think salvation can come from that, best of luck, as it can't, as the ideas behind it are preverse.
As far as I'm concerned, by identification with these ideas, it is saying something about me.
I don't believe it is murder insofar as Jesus gave Himself up as a sacrifice for mankind, dying in our place on the cross. Indeed, what Christians were celebrating the world over today is also that Jesus was raised from the dead. As a result through Him, we have died to our sins, something that is not significant unless we also were given new life in His name.
It is a victory, Jesus prevailed over sin and death, freely deciding to free us from the burden of our sin. For that I am profoundly grateful. It is also important to understand that Christians believe that Jesus is living and active in this world, even as active as He was when He first stood on the earth.I rest my case, and have nothing further to add. What you are stating is that this deity doesn't really care what his pet people think. You've just confirmed my until now reserved judgement of whether or not there might be some value in Christianity as some sort of at least well intended outlook.
Anyone who is so messed up as to imagine they can fly out of a window, is definitely for the birds anyway, and that's the truth. Truth is completely democratic, as you get what you deserve by following it, and you get what you deserve by not following it. The truth is that you can't fly on your own anyway, and if you choose to do so, then you will most likely die when you hit the ground, and that's an obvious truth, unlike the belief idea that you can fly in the first place.
Do you understand what the term democracy means?
Demos - people
kratia - power
People do not have power over truth. It is what it is. No matter how hard people try, they do not have any real power over what happens if they jump out a window. They can't decide to stay in the air. Saying that the truth is democratic, is an absurdity. No matter how hard we wish, the truth is what it is and we can't run from it. You can't decide who your biological parents are, they are who they are, whether you like it or not. You were born whether you were born, whether you like that or not.Belief in the unbelievable is not truth, or even closely related to it, as it's just make-believe. To think and act according to truthful fact is a choice exercised in the mind of any actual human, and depends on no string-pulling activities of any baleful deity. Anyone who lays down in and ideology that supplicates to the bizarre and the ridiculous, will rise up with the dust of such invention attached to them, making their origins obvious to all others.
I don't honestly see how it is unbelievable or ridiculous to see that God exists and has authority over His creation, no matter how many times new-atheists might present it as such. It is clearly more reasonable to believe that this universe is ordered and has a logical cause rather than to believe that it is meaningless, purposeless and came out of nothing.
Simply put God's standard is not democratic, because He knows best about His creation, and indeed His standards are for our ultimate good rather than for our detriment no matter how far we might run from them, or how we may ignore what He says. Ultimately, God knows more about me, than I know about myself. God cares about me, more than I care about myself. Indeed, God knows what is best for me, more than I know what is best for myself. That's a good reason from my perspective to trust in Him first and foremost in my life.
There's a stubbornness in humanity that doesn't want to accept - Yes, Lord I've screwed up, please forgive me, please guide and strengthen me, I want to know you and trust in you and live for you.
That's the innate honesty that one has to reach before one becomes a Christian, one has to accept that one is actually guilty of wrongdoing before God, and acknowledge that they need forgiveness and mercy which come through Jesus.
I'm glad that I have come to that understanding, as it makes a whole lot of sense of everything else.
The Bible does say something quite interesting on how it will be accepted:1 Corinthians 1:18 wrote:For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.0 -
Pherekydes wrote: »You should practice what you preach and think critically for yourself, instead of simply regurgitating church dogma.
I suppose you are right, I've realise not every Catholic supports the actions of certain members of the RCC. The problem is though that the RCC believes that they do and that encourages the RCC not to change.0 -
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What complete, unadulterated bollocks.:rolleyes:
Maybe it is, but that is the belief of the church, they think that if you are Catholic you support them completely, read the post above anyway and you will see I have changed my opinion on it.
But if I'm not right with what I said, declaring yourself a Christian means you believe in God, Jesus and basically everything else the bible teaches. Declaring yourself a Catholic is an extension of that, so what extra beliefs do Catholics have past the standard beliefs of a Christian?0 -
You do realise dont you that being a christian means you believe in the religion, being a catholic means you support the RRC and all of its representitives actions. That is the offical line of the Catholic church itself, they say if you are Catholic you are declaring your full support for all the church does.
The archbishop of Dublin said "Its great to see the numbers of people that are showing up to mass and showing support with how we have dealt with this issues regardless of what the media says".
By saying "I am a Caholic" you are saying you support everything every priest has done and that's the definition of it.
Spot on. It's time these sexually frustrated brainwashed cult members (i.e. any practicingCatholic) were told a few home truths.0 -
Declan Lander wrote: »Spot on. It's time these sexually frustrated brainwashed cult members (i.e. any practicingCatholic) were told a few home truths.
Ah, sweeping generalisations. nothing like it. I fell sorry for you really. The obsession with Catholicism among some souls borders on hysteria .:rolleyes:0 -
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philologos wrote: »As far as I'm concerned, by identification with these ideas, it is saying something about me. I don't believe it is murder insofar as Jesus gave Himself up as a sacrifice for mankind, dying in our place on the cross. Indeed, what Christians were celebrating the world over today is also that Jesus was raised from the dead. As a result through Him, we have died to our sins, something that is not significant unless we also were given new life in His name.
You can't 'die from your sins', as that sort of thinking simply makes no sense at all. You either stop doing negative and stupid things or you don't. You and you alone are solely responsible for your actions and inaction, and avoiding reality and placing some sort of ghostly dead man from 2000 years ago into your stead and pretending that he can mysteriously absolve you from what you choose to do, is immoral, at least in my book. And I don't need some deity to define the simple morality of my thinking on this, as it's plain simple – do stupid and senseless things, you get stupid and senseless results, so the reality is to clean up your thinking and wise up and learn from your mistakes. It's dead simple.
Jesus did not die for you or anyone, as you will die just like all the rest of us, and to me any such fanciful and self-pleasing notions are like a comfort blanket for babies to suck on when they are scared.
No he didn't, for if he did triumph over death then you and other Christians would be immortal, like your god, which is what you wish to become in some supposed life-when-you're-dead dream-world. You literally want to be godlike, with 'powers' that you can use to impose your will on others.It is a victory, Jesus prevailed over sin and death, freely deciding to free us from the burden of our sin. For that I am profoundly grateful. It is also important to understand that Christians believe that Jesus is living and active in this world, even as active as He was when He first stood on the earth.
If you had been born or raised in a Muslim or Shinto culture you would be claiming similar things from their respective gods. If you feel grateful for a man either being sacrificed by his supposed father, who is also at the same time himself, or if he wilfully walked to his death and died by proxy suicide, that's up to you, but to me it simply is way beyond anything I could ever accept as being remotely sensible, and I would consider that there's something really messed up in this storyline.
Jesus is not alive in the world, apart from certain ideas that are purporteldy origined from him, and that's all. The same goes for Plato, Socrates, Buddha, for as long as man's ideas are alive in the minds of men, then they are still alive in that sense. People act on ideas, and the reason that they world is in the state it is today is due to the ideas that permeate the minds of mankind all over the world. Some ideas are good, and some are downright insane, and that's why we such a mixture of ideas even in the same mind. Jesus, as a man, said some sensible things, but he also supposedly said things that I would consider immoral, such as insisting that I let people who have already abused me not only continue to do so, but to actively condone and encourage such further abuse. To me, that's insane, as is the idea of not caring what tomorrow brings, as the things of tomorrow comes from the actions and inactions of today and all days before.
You are confusing me now. Firstly, would you mind telling me where did I even remotely say anything about people having 'power over truth'?Do you understand what the term democracy means?
Demos - people
kratia - power
People do not have power over truth. It is what it is. No matter how hard people try, they do not have any real power over what happens if they jump out a window. They can't decide to stay in the air. Saying that the truth is democratic, is an absurdity. No matter how hard we wish, the truth is what it is and we can't run from it. You can't decide who your biological parents are, they are who they are, whether you like it or not. You were born whether you were born, whether you like that or not.
To my understanding, truth is a state of actuality, a state of being real, not some imagined or simply conjured up thing in the imagination, so it has absolutely noting to do with belief or 'powers' or the assumed will of a deity.
I'm quite aware of what democracy is in the sense that it is an elective system of governance of the being according to the principles of direct egalitarian responsibility of the individual within his or her own and the wider collective domain. I do not exist alone, so my thoughts and actions must take others into account, or otherwise I would be a singular, thoughtless, self-obsessed animal, and to me that's not a good way to live.
In making choices I can choose to face the facts, or I can choose to ignore them. This is a choice, an express vote or action to do or not do something, so the outcome will depend on my choices, which is fair, just and equitable. My first responsibility is to govern myself, to think and act in accordance with reason, which is a path to truth, as I need to know what I need to do, what I have and have not in my possession before I set out to do it, and what the most probable outcome will be in accordance with that disposition. Therefore, the idea of some person standing in and taking the hit for my badly informed and stupid thoughts and consequent actions, is contrary to my morality, but you of course may not agree with this outlook.
I really don't know what your obsession with jumping our widows has anything to do with truth. The 'power', as a possible synonym for 'ability', that anyone has in such a situation is the faculty to reason enough that not jumping to your death is a good thing to do. A small child, for example, might not have enough reason to know any different, due to lack of awareness of danger and lack of experience, but any adult to wants to override and ignore common sense fact, deserves all they get and the world would be a better off place without such stupidity.
The obvious truth of my jumping from a tenth floor window onto a concrete pavement is pretty obvious, but if I were gullible or unreasoned enough to think I could manipulate such a reality and somehow survive such an impact, then I deserve what I get – dead.
The same goes for someone wishing they were born to different parents. The facts are as they are because they are actual, and not make-believe. You can change your beliefs quicker than your underpants, but truth is reality, so we have two choices, face it or don't. If you choose not to, then you are a believer (an accepter of non-fact) and you have become lost to your own reality and don't even realise it. It's what children do, as their capacity to reason is limited, but adults are supposed to be responsible for their thoughts and actions, aren't they? Does the bible not say something like,"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"?
Of course you don't, and I know that you don't see, as you accept belief as though it were fact. You have chosen to accept opinion over fact, so in your world these things are 'real' to you, even if you have no evidence for the god you allege exists that allegedly 'rules' like some kind of male king over his kingdom. Yet again your inclination to speculate on what you seemingly think me as being conveniently labelled as a 'new-atheist', whatever that is, is symptomatic of the need to exert 'power' over the world around you, so as to make unfounded judgments on things or situations. If you make the proposition that this God, an invisible male being of some sort, exists, then you need to produce evidence, and not hearsay and received authority under some supposedly scriptural origin.I don't honestly see how it is unbelievable or ridiculous to see that God exists and has authority over His creation, no matter how many times new-atheists might present it as such.
I disagree. Believing is not reasonable, as belief relies on lack of evidence or fact. You can only discover truths by way of using reason as a tool, to reach the truth that was there all along. The Universe obviously has a logical cause and order, but making up beliefs about something we simply don't know is not the way to gain insight into it.It is clearly more reasonable to believe that this universe is ordered and has a logical cause rather than to believe that it is meaningless, purposeless and came out of nothing.
Let's for example, start off with the pretty obvious and observable fact that the Universe is structured and then using belief to somehow subjectively justify the lack of effort we didn't make to extend that observation towards a fuller realisation or understanding, therefore improving our perspective, to come to a conclusion, will mean a futile attempt in finding the truths we supposedly set out to find in the first place. This is the path of self deception, but some will insist on following it nevertheless, and may even congratulate themselves for merely moving from one realm of fantasy to another and still think they have advanced their thinking. It's like tying a donkey to a waterwheel and setting it off going around and it has no idea that it is simply going around in circles. Motion while going nowhere doesn't signify advancement.
To say that God knows best is to firstly presume/believe that you know what God thinks, and to do that you would have to have the same mind and ability as such a god, which would mean that you yourself would know what's best for you, which is something you are saying you actually don't and can't know anyway. Does this make any sense whatsoever to you Phililogos?Simply put God's standard is not democratic, because He knows best about His creation, and indeed His standards are for our ultimate good rather than for our detriment no matter how far we might run from them, or how we may ignore what He says. Ultimately, God knows more about me, than I know about myself. God cares about me, more than I care about myself. Indeed, God knows what is best for me, more than I know what is best for myself. That's a good reason from my perspective to trust in Him first and foremost in my life.
To say that you are the possession of a god, like some piece of property or cattle, says that you cannot take actual responsibility for your actions, as no matter what you do you will wait for him to decide things on your behalf. 'God' doesn't 'say' things – people who claim to talk and listen to him say that he says things, that's all, as it's what you want it to be for as long as you want it to be, which is ever-changing according to the whims of your mind, and therefore cannot be based on truth, as truth is reality and is consistent with itself at all times.
I agree that there is a stubbornness in humanity, but it is one that insists on accepting the incredible, believing the unbelievable, denying the undeniable and excusing the inexcusable. This is belligerence.There's a stubbornness in humanity that doesn't want to accept - Yes, Lord I've screwed up, please forgive me, please guide and strengthen me, I want to know you and trust in you and live for you.
If you give me good evidence and a reliable process for discernment of truth through logic and reason, I will have no issue with accepting it in the light of truth and reason, as the truth of the matter becomes apparent and beyond doubt. Belief involves doubt, so you have to put your beliefs to one side and take a good hard look at reality and face the facts – or remain dead to the truths of them.
On the other hand, insisting that I might be the product of a deity, somehow loved and cared for by some invisible babysitter, rather than face the fact that I am basically and animal with an innate capacity to reason and to learn to become a better being, would be a wilful stubborn attitude. It's the same old attitude that for hundreds of generations that man has insisted upon, bowing and scraping and moaning to the various deities and their attendant priesthoods, and yet still remaining oblivious to the fact that it is that lowly and grovelling attitude of submission to the skilfully created and fearful reactions to shadows formed on the walls of the cave of men's minds, that causes the same old tragic and predictable results to be repeated and repeated in every single generation. The reason there is so much insanity in the stupid things man does, is that so much of him is driven by a deficiency of reason and a love of what pleases his imagination.
Honesty is the capacity to act without dissimulation, to recognise the value of truthful practice, to be straight in our dealings in all aspects as far as is reasonably possible. Therefore, you can only be honest if you know the facts, and if you either don't know the facts or stubbornly refuse to see that you in fact don't have them, then you can't actually be honest in the first place, though you my fool yourself that you are. All we do in those circumstances is to put the cart before the horse, and wonder why things fail to work out. Religions and other such belief systems ignore the fact that they are not actually working from the correct starting point, as they set our with the intent to confirm what they want to selectively believe, rather than look at the evidence that might possibly lead them to a better position to know of better. In fact, it's a skilled methodology of avoiding the evidence so that you don't have to face the facts that you already know that you don't want to hear in the first place, like the drunk who 'doesn't have a problem with drink'.That's the innate honesty that one has to reach before one becomes a Christian, one has to accept that one is actually guilty of wrongdoing before God, and acknowledge that they need forgiveness and mercy which come through Jesus. I'm glad that I have come to that understanding, as it makes a whole lot of sense of everything else.
The Bible does say something quite interesting on how it will be accepted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
There you go again Phililogos, on about 'power'. What has all this obsession with 'power' really done apart from causing waste, misery and intransigent blindness of one set of believers against the other? There are thousands of Christian sects, all claiming to be attached to the 'power' of the same 'God', but historically they have been fighting, killing, murdering, burning, accusing and hating each other and other religion since the whole thing began. It was the same in previous times, where the Jews fought amongst themselves, when the Philistines and the Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Persians, all claiming 'rights' and the 'powers' that allegedly came from their deities. Where are they now? In the dust, where all belief and fantasy systems end up, and rightly so.
The idea that there is some 'truth of the cross' is a complete contradiction, as the bible clearly states in a number of places that Jesus was 'hanged on a tree', so even 'the cross' cannot be true.
Truth is the one imperishable indivisible thing in the Universe, and once you go off into orbit about the planet called Belief, then you will eventually crash-land after spending a long time going around in ever-decreasing circles. All effects have causes, so you simply can't afford to avoid the truth, but you can try to if you want, as that's a choice you do have.
Cheers
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