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Catholic Traditions

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    #182
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    hondasam wrote: »
    That's their sins not mine, why should I leave because of what others did. Is this the view you take on everything you don't agree with?

    your about as responsible for what a catholic priest , bishop , pope or any catholic for that matter does as a random individual protestant ( anywhere in the world ) is responsible for the actions of the haters in the orange order


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    #183
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    your about as responsible for what a catholic priest , bishop , pope or any catholic for that matter does as a random individual protestant ( anywhere in the world ) is responsible for the actions of the haters in the orange order
    The Roman Catholic Chorch is an Organization, Protestantism is a term used to decribed various Christian Groups who Left the RCC during and after the Reformation, how any sane person could assert that all protestants are guilty of the actions of a the Orange Order is beyond belief. However all Orangemen are equally guilty of the acts perpertrated by their orgainization in the same way as those who choose to remain members of the RCC share in the guilt of their organization.


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    #184
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    lividduck wrote: »
    The Roman Catholic Chorch is an Organization, Protestantism is a term used to decribed various Christian Groups who Left the RCC during and after the Reformation, how any sane person could assert that all protestants are guilty of the actions of a the Orange Order is beyond belief. However all Orangemen are equally guilty of the acts perpertrated by their orgainization in the same way as those who choose to remain members of the RCC share in the guilt of their organization.

    you misread my post , i said their was as much credibility in saying that hondasam was responsible for the actions of priests who abused as thier is saying any random protestant is responsible for the actions of the orange order

    im athiest but was raised catholic , what is a catholic who still believes supposed to do , are you seriously suggesting that they become an anglican , baptist , lutheran in order to assauge thier guilt by association

    the anglican and presbyterian churches in the uk supported the slave trade and the empire of britain , no religon is clean


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    #185
    F12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭F12


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    you misread my post , i said their was as much credibility in saying that hondasam was responsible for the actions of priests who abused as thier is saying any random protestant is responsible for the actions of the orange order

    im athiest but was raised catholic , what is a catholic who still believes supposed to do , are you seriously suggesting that they become an anglican , baptist , lutheran in order to assauge thier guilt by association

    the anglican and presbyterian churches in the uk supported the slave trade and the empire of britain , no religon is clean

    It's a tricky one and probably a question many Catholics have asked themselves over the past few years, but the reality is that if they still attend church and follow the ritual patterns of behaviour as they did before the scandals etc, then the hierarchy will naturally take it as a given that they don't or won't expect anything to change in the overall sense.
    It's a severe time for many who feel very betrayed but don't want to be disloyal to what they have been trained to accept, as the brainwashing runs very deep and they really don't appreciate how much of an effect it has on the formation of their attitudes.


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    #186
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    F12 wrote: »
    It's a tricky one and probably a question many Catholics have asked themselves over the past few years, but the reality is that if they still attend church and follow the ritual patterns of behaviour as they did before the scandals etc, then the hierarchy will naturally take it as a given that they don't or won't expect anything to change in the overall sense.
    It's a severe time for many who feel very betrayed but don't want to be disloyal to what they have been trained to accept, as the brainwashing runs very deep and they really don't appreciate how much of an effect it has on the formation of their attitudes.

    thier are so many assumptions in that post , i lost count by the end


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    #187
    F12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭F12


    battle_hardend wrote: »
    thier are so many assumptions in that post , i lost count by the end

    Well, maybe you just don't have the required attention span and weren't paying enough attention, but if you try counting the spelling errors in your posts to date, you might catch up. Their is the possessive case of they, and is not the same as there. You can learn all sorts around here matey.


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    #188
    Leeg17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,127 ✭✭✭✭Leeg17


    Being a spelling nazi is against the charter.


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    #189
    FrTony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭FrTony


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Nothign compared to the Catholic Church's obsession with covering up the rape and torture of kids. :rolleyes:

    It appears secular society is not much better either.

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/86096-army-officer-has-sex-his-daughter.html

    Oh and how many kids died under HSE care over the last decade?


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    #190
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    FrTony wrote: »
    It appears secular society is not much better either.

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/86096-army-officer-has-sex-his-daughter.html

    Oh and how many kids died under HSE care over the last decade?
    Nowhere near as many died in letterfrack and places like it.:mad:
    And unlike Cardinal Sean Brady , the HSE does NOT make abused children swear an oath to secrecy(on the bible) in order to protect the abuser.


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    #191
    Glenbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Glenbhoy


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Nothign compared to the Catholic Church's obsession with covering up the rape and torture of kids. :rolleyes:

    What happened and the church's part in it was appalling, but what I fail to understand is how the state and establishment of the time gets such an easy ride from so many people.

    The various reports into the abuse have all shown the state (irish society at the time too) to have at best turned a blind eye to what was going on and on many occasions the state was complicit.


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    #192
    Ted_YNWA
    Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    thread gone completely off topic ....

    but If the second coming was to happen now, how would Jesus be treated if he came up to you and said "i'm the son of God and have come to free the world of sin .."


    guaranteed to be greeted with .. keep taking them tablets bud


    Anyways I'll either be going to heaven for the climate or hell for the company (assuming they co-exist / exist)


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    #193
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    F12: I was about to respond to your point, but I realised that there was a whole lot of idle rhetoric and assumption in there.
    • Christians are illogical
    • Christians don't listen to fact.
    • Christians are like children.
    • Christians don't acknowledge truth.
    • Christians accept belief without consideration.
    and the list goes on.

    Except, none of them are actually true. Christianity makes a lot of internal sense where I find that atheism and agnosticism doesn't, insofar as where we came from, and why there is so much wrongdoing in the world to start with.

    I don't believe for a second that atheism or agnosticism is "rational" at all. Particularly when most of it seems to be based on a dislike of Christianity rather than any sound reason for believing it to be untrue.

    As for there being no evidence for Christianity, I disagree there's tons of it. There's evidence for numerous things that the Bible puts forward from a philosophical level, from an archaeological level, from a simple logical level. On a mere comparison between what the Bible talks about and looking at the world at large, about 5 years ago, I decided that I could no longer justify living the way I was as an agnostic and decided to follow Jesus.

    Where there is little to nothing to convince from my perspective is in the case of atheism or agnosticism.

    That's not a childish way of looking at it irrespective of what you or others might say about it. It's merely an ad-hominem and should be shown to be such.

    Likewise your point about being raised in a "Christian" culture. That point has little to no power in the 21st century given that most Christians live outside of the West in predominately non-Christian countries. Indeed, why isn't Chinese culture for example stopping over 100 million people from following Jesus, and worshipping in underground churches?

    This is a genetic fallacy.

    Also you claimed that if Christians had eternal life, they'd be immortal. From a Biblical point of view Christians like everyone else will die, and then be judged, if they have truly and sincerely repented of sin, they will be forgiven and will live eternally. The flipside is if we've treated God with contempt throughout our lives, we'll be condemned eternally.

    Here's a passage that might help out:
    Hebrews 9:27-28 wrote:
    And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

    If there are any specific things you'd like me to refer to other than this, I will. I was going to go step by step through it, but I found that it got rather long rather quickly.


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    #194
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    philologos i just wanted to say i've read through the thread, and your arguments alone have given me far better insight into christianity and catholicism than any of the 'angry atheist' posts.

    they claim that the church indoctrinated and coerced people, etc, yet having read through this thread, it seems posters who identify as atheist are not happy to let posters identify as catholic should they wish to do so.

    that, to me at least, is coercion in my mind, and im far from brainwashed, as another poster alluded to earlier. i see that for every one priest that has carried out abuse, there are plenty more priests that carry out good work. to me at least, people are people before they are priests, the same as people are people before they are for example swimming coaches, or GAA coaches, and so on.

    one's religion is a personal belief, individual to them, for what it means to them, and in the same way as some posters who identify as atheist protest about people being indoctrinated into catholicism, they are no better with their shoving atheism down people's throats.

    i identify as catholic, but that doesnt to me at least, mean i must recognise the catholic hierarchy, i recognise that a church is made up of the people, and while i dont base my life around my religion nor spout about it to everyone i meet, its still not up to anyone else in my opinion to tell me what i should and shouldn't believe, and that includes over-zealous atheists!


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    #195
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    xsiborg wrote: »
    philologos i just wanted to say i've read through the thread, and your arguments alone have given me far better insight into christianity and catholicism than any of the 'angry atheist' posts.

    they claim that the church indoctrinated and coerced people, etc, yet having read through this thread, it seems posters who identify as atheist are not happy to let posters identify as catholic should they wish to do so.

    that, to me at least, is coercion in my mind, and im far from brainwashed, as another poster alluded to earlier. i see that for every one priest that has carried out abuse, there are plenty more priests that carry out good work. to me at least, people are people before they are priests, the same as people are people before they are for example swimming coaches, or GAA coaches, and so on.

    one's religion is a personal belief, individual to them, for what it means to them, and in the same way as some posters who identify as atheist protest about people being indoctrinated into catholicism, they are no better with their shoving atheism down people's throats.Where do you see this happening on any significant scale?[/COLOR]...other than on boards that is?
    i identify as catholic, but that doesnt to me at least, mean i must recognise the catholic hierarchy, i recognise that a church is made up of the people, and while i dont base my life around my religion nor spout about it to everyone i meet, its still not up to anyone else in my opinion to tell me what i should and shouldn't believe, and that includes over-zealous atheists!
    So from where do you get your catholic beliefs if not from a hierarchy? Where is the cut off point before you stop being catholic and become something else? Isnt this like saying if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck it may actually be a dog because it identifies with dogs? By this logic cant any one from any where of any persuasion state that they are catholic and thus be one? Theres no rule against it i grant you but this still does not make such claims true.


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    #196
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    So from where do you get your catholic beliefs if not from a hierarchy?

    i get my beliefs from my own conscience really, is the most honest answer i can give to your question. sure there have been times when i questioned my faith, but that for me at least does not mean i go to the other extreme and believe in nothing, because for me, personally speaking, i like to believe in something beyond myself. do we not all scoff at scientology? yet it seems to work for those who believe in it's teachings. if atheism works for you, then that is your comfort, it's just not mine.
    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Where is the cut off point before you stop being catholic and become something else? Isnt this like saying if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck it may actually be a dog because it identifies with dogs? By this logic cant any one from any where of any persuasion state that they are catholic and thus be one? Theres no rule against it i grant you but this still does not make such claims true.

    i personally dont believe it's as black and white as that, there is a huge grey area in between, and that's why we as human beings question these things. questions are good, they make us think about things, i question myself all the time, and for me, catholicism works, it fits in with what i believe. atheism doesn't.

    to use your analogy- if enough people call it a dog, then it is identifiable to most people as a dog. just because i do not follow the gospel to the letter, does not instantly make me an atheist, it means i have a mind of my own and am at least open to qiestioning my faith. that is how religions form and evolve, and until i find something that more suits my way of thinking, then i shall remain quite happily a catholic. it doesnt mean either that i support what a small section of the catholic hierarchy has done, or even continues to do, but i dont believe one should tar the whole church with the same brush.


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    #197
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    xsiborg wrote: »
    i get my beliefs from my own conscience really, You miss understand me i think. When and how did you get introduced to catholicism? Was it from your parents? If so where did they get theirs. Its goes back to the hierarchy eventually unless you have in your possession some original scripture or scrolls that no body else has.is the most honest answer i can give to your question. sure there have been times when i questioned my faith, but that for me at least does not mean i go to the other extreme and believe in nothing, because for me, personally speaking, i like to believe in something beyond myself. do we not all scoff at scientology? yet it seems to work for those who believe in it's teachings. if atheism works for you, then that is your comfort, it's just not mine.

    Where is the cut off point before you stop being catholic and become something else? Isnt this like saying if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck it may actually be a dog because it identifies with dogs? By this logic cant any one from any where of any persuasion state that they are catholic and thus be one? Theres no rule against it i grant you but this still does not make such claims true.

    i personally dont believe it's as black and white as that, there is a huge grey area in between,but where does this grey turn into black? Arent you actually simply 'Christian'. Im not having a go here but there must be a cut off point , a place where once you reject enough of a specific religions teachings you are no longer aligned with that religion and that's why we as human beings question these things. questions are good, they make us think about things, i question myself all the time, and for me, catholicism works, it fits in with what i believe. atheism doesn't.

    to use your analogy- if enough people call it a dog, then it is identifiable to most people as a dog. just because i do not follow the gospel to the letter, does not instantly make me an atheist, Who said it does. It may make you simply "Christian" though.There are other alternatives than just "Catholic" or "Atheist" it means i have a mind of my own and am at least open to qiestioning my faith. that is how religions form and evolve, and until i find something that more suits my way of thinking, then i shall remain quite happily a catholic. it doesnt mean either that i support what a small section of the catholic hierarchy has done, or even continues to do, but i dont believe one should tar the whole church with the same brush.[/QUOTE]

    :)


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    #198
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    xsiborg wrote: »
    yet it seems to work for those who believe in it's teachings. if atheism works for you, then that is your comfort, it's just not mine.

    The difference between atheism and beliefs (and no, it's not a belief, you don't call people who don't collect stamp astampcollectorists) is that people don't become atheists for comfort, they tend to become it because they, you know, think it's the truth.


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    #199
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    i personally dont believe it's as black and white as that, there is a huge grey area in between,but where does this grey turn into black? Arent you actually simply 'Christian'. Im not having a go here but there must be a cut off point , a place where once you reject enough of a specific religions teachings you are no longer aligned with that religion and that's why we as human beings question these things. questions are good, they make us think about things, i question myself all the time, and for me, catholicism works, it fits in with what i believe. atheism doesn't.

    to use your analogy- if enough people call it a dog, then it is identifiable to most people as a dog. just because i do not follow the gospel to the letter, does not instantly make me an atheist, Who said it does. It may make you simply "Christian" though.There are other alternatives than just "Catholic" or "Atheist" it means i have a mind of my own and am at least open to qiestioning my faith. that is how religions form and evolve, and until i find something that more suits my way of thinking, then i shall remain quite happily a catholic. it doesnt mean either that i support what a small section of the catholic hierarchy has done, or even continues to do, but i dont believe one should tar the whole church with the same brush.

    :)[/QUOTE]

    here GB, mass is about to start, i'll come back and address your points afterwards, meanwhile you can check it out on www.novena.ie.

    church using modern technology? there's a first! :p;)


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    #200
    xsiborg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,635 ✭✭✭xsiborg


    Doctor DooM wrote: »
    The difference between atheism and beliefs (and no, it's not a belief, you don't call people who don't collect stamp astampcollectorists) is that people don't become atheists for comfort, they tend to become it because they, you know, think it's the truth.

    it's YOUR truth Doc, it works for you. it doesnt work for everybody.


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    #201
    F12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭F12


    philologos wrote: »
    F12: I was about to respond to your point, but I realised that there was a whole lot of idle rhetoric and assumption in there.
    • Christians are illogical
    • Christians don't listen to fact.
    • Christians are like children.
    • Christians don't acknowledge truth.
    • Christians accept belief without consideration.
    and the list goes on....snip

    Thanks for your reply Phililogos. I think you are looking at this the wrong way and making presumptions as to my reasoning and see it as some sort of 'attack', which is is not at all, but I appreciate that this is how you might see things as believers are taught that they need to defend what they believe, and can become confused about why anyone might find them difficult or even impossible to take at face value.
    No need to apologise for not replying point by point, as it would/could get a tad long, and I only mapped out my responses to your earlier post so I could provide a better rationale for replying to the ideas you presented.

    I'm going to be away for the next several days and will reply to your above message when I get back.

    Cheers,
    F


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    #202
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    FrTony wrote: »
    It appears secular society is not much better either.

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/current-affairs/86096-army-officer-has-sex-his-daughter.html

    Oh and how many kids died under HSE care over the last decade?

    social workers are taboo for criticism , religous orders are not


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    #203
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    lividduck wrote: »
    Nowhere near as many died in letterfrack and places like it.:mad:
    And unlike Cardinal Sean Brady , the HSE does NOT make abused children swear an oath to secrecy(on the bible) in order to protect the abuser.

    name one HSE employee who was named and shamed over the deaths of underage people in thier care


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    #204
    battle_hardend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 208 ✭✭battle_hardend


    philologos wrote: »
    F12: I was about to respond to your point, but I realised that there was a whole lot of idle rhetoric and assumption in there.
    • Christians are illogical
    • Christians don't listen to fact.
    • Christians are like children.
    • Christians don't acknowledge truth.
    • Christians accept belief without consideration.
    and the list goes on.

    Except, none of them are actually true. Christianity makes a lot of internal sense where I find that atheism and agnosticism doesn't, insofar as where we came from, and why there is so much wrongdoing in the world to start with.

    I don't believe for a second that atheism or agnosticism is "rational" at all. Particularly when most of it seems to be based on a dislike of Christianity rather than any sound reason for believing it to be untrue.

    As for there being no evidence for Christianity, I disagree there's tons of it. There's evidence for numerous things that the Bible puts forward from a philosophical level, from an archaeological level, from a simple logical level. On a mere comparison between what the Bible talks about and looking at the world at large, about 5 years ago, I decided that I could no longer justify living the way I was as an agnostic and decided to follow Jesus.

    Where there is little to nothing to convince from my perspective is in the case of atheism or agnosticism.

    That's not a childish way of looking at it irrespective of what you or others might say about it. It's merely an ad-hominem and should be shown to be such.

    Likewise your point about being raised in a "Christian" culture. That point has little to no power in the 21st century given that most Christians live outside of the West in predominately non-Christian countries. Indeed, why isn't Chinese culture for example stopping over 100 million people from following Jesus, and worshipping in underground churches?

    This is a genetic fallacy.

    Also you claimed that if Christians had eternal life, they'd be immortal. From a Biblical point of view Christians like everyone else will die, and then be judged, if they have truly and sincerely repented of sin, they will be forgiven and will live eternally. The flipside is if we've treated God with contempt throughout our lives, we'll be condemned eternally.

    Here's a passage that might help out:


    If there are any specific things you'd like me to refer to other than this, I will. I was going to go step by step through it, but I found that it got rather long rather quickly.


    i like many of the core teachings of christianity and believe that religous people are for the most part very decent , im athiest however


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    #205
    F12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭F12


    xsiborg wrote: »
    i get my beliefs from my own conscience really, is the most honest answer i can give to your question. sure there have been times when i questioned my faith, but that for me at least does not mean i go to the other extreme and believe in nothing, because for me, personally speaking, i like to believe in something beyond myself. do we not all scoff at scientology? yet it seems to work for those who believe in it's teachings. if atheism works for you, then that is your comfort, it's just not mine.

    I can see your point to some degree, but to think that the teachings and indoctriantion of the RCC didn't form the way your conscience was formed, doesn't really make sense, otherwise you would not identify with it.
    Conscience becomes formed from both the conscious and unconscious rules and ethos of the prevailing social systems, be they religious, political or tradtional, along with your own natural faculty of discernment, which varies from individual to another, which is why people see things so differently. Having an informed conscience or mind is essential to understand something, but religions are opposed to knowing things and promote belief (opinion), they promote an ethos where only a one-sided position is acceptable, must not be questioned, and when it is, tells the follower to accept or else.

    Most people are aware that there is a world outside the self, as that's obvious, but if there is and it is really there, then we don't need to invent things about it, believe things about it, but go and find out as much as possible. We can't and don't individually need to know everything, but by believing that we somehow know what we don't (believe), we can sometimes convince ourselves that we do, until we later find out that we don't. The reason that we don't is that we assumed we knew in the first place. That goes for anyone, anywhere, anytime, and is not particular to Catholics.


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    #206
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    xsiborg wrote: »
    Doctor DooM wrote: »
    The difference between atheism and beliefs (and no, it's not a belief, you don't call people who don't collect stamp astampcollectorists) is that people don't become atheists for comfort, they tend to become it because they, you know, think it's the truth.

    it's YOUR truth Doc, it works for you. it doesnt work for everybody.


    It's not my truth- I don't claim to know the truth. I fail to see any evidence for a god existing. If someone presents some I will reconsider.


    Whether it works for me or nor is irrelevant, as is if it makes me comfortable or not. I'd rather live life by understanding as much as I can rather than picking what works and makes me feel comfy.


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    #207
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    xsiborg wrote: »
    philologos i just wanted to say i've read through the thread, and your arguments alone have given me far better insight into christianity and catholicism than any of the 'angry atheist' posts.

    Thanks, but all I am doing is simply presenting God's word.
    xsiborg wrote: »
    one's religion is a personal belief, individual to them, for what it means to them, and in the same way as some posters who identify as atheist protest about people being indoctrinated into catholicism, they are no better with their shoving atheism down people's throats.

    I don't necessarily agree that it is entirely personal. People might believe X, Y or Z, but ultimately something is true. That's the only thing I pretty much agree with the new-atheists on. I.E - That there is something true.

    As for what is true. I believe it is that Jesus Christ came into the world and died for our sins and rose again three days later. That's the power of God, and it is the only way we can be forgiven.

    If that is true, it has real consequences irrespective of what people believe in.

    The reason I post that is clearly not out of personal gain, or a desire for human favour. It is simply because I believe people need to hear that truth.
    xsiborg wrote: »
    i identify as catholic, but that doesnt to me at least, mean i must recognise the catholic hierarchy, i recognise that a church is made up of the people, and while i dont base my life around my religion nor spout about it to everyone i meet, its still not up to anyone else in my opinion to tell me what i should and shouldn't believe, and that includes over-zealous atheists!

    That's fair enough. I think that Christianity is simply about God's relationship with mankind as is presented Biblically. Man can know God by seeking Him out, it isn't a hugely complicated procedure.

    I'd encourage you and all other Christians just to hang in there, and to seek Jesus first before the ways of the world. Read the Bible, pray, and live and speak for Jesus in daily life, and serve His kingdom. We can be sure that nobody else will help us do that, so we need to do this ourselves :)

    That's why Christian community is important.


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