Man Who Led Walking Protest Has His Dole Cut

iguana

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

When I was on the dole in 08/09, it was 180 something a week. What kind of dole is it where 310 Euro "keeps you going" for the four days docked? How much is he usually getting?

Do you really think a single person gets the same as 2 adults and a number of children?

The Waltzing Consumer

Biggins wrote: »

Or 61(under 25)/81(over 25) per week.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_200090.html

A single person here gets €114(?) or is it €141(?) - so not that much difference if you take into account the differences of prices between here and England for food, clothing, electricity, petrol, etc?

Biggins, you were the OP. Do you know what the story is with the 310 Euro paid to him by the SW office is? Is this guy making over 400 Euro a week on SW?

The Waltzing Consumer

iguana wrote: »

Do you really think a single person gets the same as 2 adults and a number of children?

Sorry? I did not see any mention of the OP saying the man and his wife had their SW cut? There is also no mention of kids either or other types of payments. Can you explain? Maybe you know more.

Biggins

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Biggins, you were the OP. Do you know what the story is with the 310 Euro paid to him by the SW office is? Is this guy making over 400 Euro a week on SW?

I'm assuming (open to be wrong) that he is collecting for himself and possibly wife and kids.
Going on the money he is supposed to be getting, it far over reaches the maximum for any single payment for a single or married person without kids.
So I, myself, is assuming he's collecting for kids also.

iguana

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Sorry? I did not see any mention of the OP saying the man and his wife had their SW cut? There is also no mention of kids either or other types of payments. Can you explain? Maybe you know more.

He is a married man with children. Families do no get a separate dole for each family member. One person gets their own dole plus a smaller sum for a dependent spouse and a much smaller sum for each dependent child. As he specifically says in the article that because of the cut he has no money for his family, I would have thought it more than obvious that he is in receipt of a family dole payment, not a single man's one.

Ms. Pingui

I don't really get it.... If you're on the dole are you supposed to just sit at home all day, every day in case somebody decides to offer you a job?

Can you not do voluntary work?
Can you even go out to walk the dog???

oppenheimer1

trooney wrote: »

With the advent of mobile technology you can be actively seeking work from any geographical location in the country (once you have a signal). Do they deduct SW payments for when you are asleep (and not actively seeking work)?

He could have been, but he wasn't. Thems the rules and thems the breaks

iguana

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

Can you not do voluntary work?

You can't just do voluntary work, no. You have to get permission from the dole office and present a letter from whoever is the volunteer manager where you wish to volunteer promising that they will not prevent you from looking for work and will release you immediately if you have a job interview or get a job. And even then it's down to the mood of the person you are dealing with if they will allow you to do it or not.

oppenheimer1

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I don't really get it.... If you're on the dole are you supposed to just sit at home all day, every day in case somebody decides to offer you a job?

Can you not do voluntary work?
Can you even go out to walk the dog???

Voluntary work is against the rules unless its approved by the Welfare office. There are also restrictions on the amount of time you can spend volunteering afaik.

Welfare is not there to provide cheap labour for charities. Its there as a safety net for people who find themselves out of work so that they can maintain a basic standard of living whilst looking for work.

Biggins

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

I don't really get it.... If you're on the dole are you supposed to just sit at home all day, every day in case somebody decides to offer you a job?

Can you not do voluntary work?
Can you even go out to walk the dog???

I think the dole officers expect an unemployed person at some stage every day, to be out looking for work and to be ABLE to be out looking for work.

If he was on a long 4 day march, by their assessment (I'm guessing) they considered him not to have (a) notified them of the days he wanted in advance and is entitled to and (b) was not in an ability to be looking and able to look, for any opportunities.

Of course walking the dog, etc is normal and expected.
Voluntary work by the way, you have to officially notify them of too.

gsxr1

400 a week? If this is true I am very upset. I work 40 hours a week for 500 and have to support my family.

I would love to take a 100 cut and sit on my hole eating cornflakes .


Please tell me its not true that non working feckers are getting as much working feckers.

fecking hell.

iguana

gsxr1 wrote: »

400 a week? If this is true I am very upset. I work 40 hours a week for 500 and have to support my family.

I would love to take a 100 cut and sit on my hole eating cornflakes .


Please tell me its not true that non working feckers are getting as much working feckers.

fecking hell.

The dole and ancillary benefits, like rent allowance, are very generous here. A lot of low to mid level earners would be financially better off on the dole at the moment if they do not have a mortgage and can find a suitable rental property within the rent allowance limits.

Ms. Pingui

It's a pity that voluntary work's not allowed. There are lots of charities that could really benefit from it. It's not like it would actually stop you from looking for work.... surely you would still have time to send e-mail and make phone calls etc?
Lots of people on the dole are suffering from depression as a result of not being able to find work. Letting people volunteer would be a great way of boosting the mental health of those that find themselves unemployed.

It's a great way to learn new skills and many organisations train you too so it could actually help you find work!

Biggins

Ms. Pingui wrote: »

It's a pity that voluntary work's not allowed.

It IS allowed.
You just have to notify them of it and say for how long each day your doing it.
There is limits I think on how much each day you can also do it.

For example:

A number of people would like to volunteer while being unemployed but due to fears on how this affects their social welfare payments, have not registered to do so.

The Department of Social Protection will not penalise anyone in receipt of job seeker supports for part-time volunteering; it is actually encouraged as it gets you out of the house, keeps your mind stimulated and as a whole is good for you.

However, each individual must still meet the conditions for receiving their unemployment benefit:

- You must still be actively and genuinely seeking work.

- Your volunteering is an activity that seeks to benefit others (beyond your family) for which you receive no pay (except out-of-pocket expenses).

- You should be available to take up work as soon as an opportunity comes your way. Volunteers should be aware that a commitment to full time volunteering may deem you unavailable for work, which may affect your entitlements.

Voluntary organisations who involve volunteers in receipt of Social Welfare must have approval from the individual’s local employment exchange before taking on the volunteer. To do this, the organisation must complete a VW1 application form and submit this to their local office of the Department of Social Protection.

http://www.volunteerdublincitysouth.ie/Volunteering-while-unemployed.html

Ms. Pingui

Biggins wrote: »

It IS allowed.
You just have to notify them of it and say for how long each day your doing it.
There is limits I think on how much each day you can also do it.

For example:


http://www.volunteerdublincitysouth.ie/Volunteering-while-unemployed.html

Oh right.... I'm a bit slow today!

phasers

^ I specifically asked a woman in my Social Welfare office about volunteer work and she told me that it is absolutely not allowed as it means you're not available to work. They really need to get their story straight and retrain staff, because there seems to be a lot of misinformation coming out of dole offices.

Biggins

phasers wrote: »

^ I specifically asked a woman in my Social Welfare office about volunteer work and she told me that it is absolutely not allowed as it means you're not available to work. They really need to get their story straight and retrain staff, because there seems to be a lot of misinformation coming out of dole offices.

You need to print the page off in the following link (and educate the fools there).
THEIR official site.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Pages/JobseekersVoluntaryWorkOption.aspx

Jobseekers - Voluntary Work Option

Information
A jobseeker who engages in voluntary work within the State may continue to be entitled to a jobseekers payment provided that, in engaging in the voluntary work, they continue to satisfy the statutory conditions of being available for and genuinely seeking work.

Examples of voluntary work in which jobseekers may engage include

helping the sick, elderly or persons with a disability
assisting youth clubs, church groups, sports groups, cultural organisations, local resident associations
The groups involved may be nationally organised groups or local voluntary or community groups.

Aims of the Voluntary Work Option
The aim of the Voluntary Work Option is twofold, namely – to encourage voluntary organisations to involve jobseekers to the greatest extent possible in their existing activities by creating new opportunities for voluntary work and to inform jobseekers of their freedom to involve themselves in voluntary work and to encourage them to do so.

Rules
While it is not possible to lay down hard and fast rules as to what constitutes voluntary work the position should be clear in most cases. Factors to be taken into account will include:

the type of work involved,
the aims and standing of the voluntary body,
the weekly hours worked,
amount of any payment received by way of out-of-pocket expenses
The voluntary work would normally involve only a few hours a day or a few days a week but full-time involvement in voluntary activities would not necessarily be ruled out. However, there should be no implication of Job Replacement or Cheap Labour. Any payment for the voluntary work should generally be limited to out-of-pocket expenses such as travelling expenses or meal allowances.

How to Apply
The jobseeker or the voluntary organisation/group involved should request an application form VW 1 from their Local Social Welfare Office.

Where to Apply
The completed application form should be sent to the Local Office and a Deciding Officer will determine whether the customer may take up the work in question without affecting entitlement to the jobseekers payment.

Decisions in relation to Voluntary Work
In considering an application, the Deciding Officer will determine whether the work concerned is voluntary within the meaning of the scheme and whether the jobseeker would continue to satisfy the statutory conditions for getting the jobseekers payment. The Deciding Officer will need to be satisfied that the jobseeker is available to take up employment, if offered it, and that they are making genuine efforts to find work. This applies whether the voluntary work is full or part-time.

Logical Fallacy

Batsy wrote: »

310 euros for dole?

Blimey, the Irish aren't half pampered.

In Britain you get around half that - per fortnight.

We have had it very easy here since we kicked out your murderous Monarchy Batsy.

LilyCricket

iguana wrote: »

He is a married man with children. Families do no get a separate dole for each family member. One person gets their own dole plus a smaller sum for a dependent spouse and a much smaller sum for each dependent child. As he specifically says in the article that because of the cut he has no money for his family, I would have thought it more than obvious that he is in receipt of a family dole payment, not a single man's one.

not heard of that before

MaxyJazz

Well I'm posting a cheque to Joe Murphy for €100 and he can spend it as he wishes fair play to him to protest on something he believes in...this government needs to realise that they can't pull the wool over our eyes no more,the amount of tax payers money wasted is just crazy,and it needs to start at the top...Phil hogan's quote when he was asked in 2009 to take a 10% pay cut on his estimated €200,000 salary & expences. Quote: “My personal circumstances don’t allow that at the moment"....yeah great example Phil keep up the good work.

Xenophile

Just look at all the free advertising he is getting, he should be back in business in no time!

woodoo

Could he not have said he was walking up to Dublin to ask Enda to help him get a job.

oppenheimer1

MaxyJazz wrote: »

Well I'm posting a cheque to Joe Murphy for €100 and he can spend it as he wishes fair play to him to protest on something he believes in...this government needs to realise that they can't pull the wool over our eyes no more,the amount of tax payers money wasted is just crazy,and it needs to start at the top...Phil hogan's quote when he was asked in 2009 to take a 10% pay cut on his estimated €200,000 salary & expences. Quote: “My personal circumstances don’t allow that at the moment"....yeah great example Phil keep up the good work.

Whats one mans waste is another mans necessity. Many people would argue that giving this man his normal payment would be wasteful since he was not seeking work.

The government are hardly pulling the wool over anyones eyes, or at least anyone who can do basic math. The government spends more than it takes in so it has to borrow the shortfall. Only the troika will lend to us so we have to play by their rules. There will be more tax increases and spending cuts and protests like Mr Murphys above will achieve nothing - simply because the books have to be balanced. People will suffer, but there is no alternative. People will moan about politicians salaries but that is ignoratio elenchi of the highest form. They are small beer compared to the big two, pay and welfare.

Yes that will mean people will be seriously worse off than before like Mr Murphy, but thems the breaks that life deals you. We'll just have to suck it up and move on.

A Disgrace

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's nothing to do with child benefit. They get the basic dole plus additions for each dependant.

It's a couples rate right? As far as I know, if a married couple are both unemployed, one single payment is made (to the husband usually) and it is considerably less than if the two individuals were claiming seperately (something to do with the means testing of two people rather than one)

xsiborg

wait a minute, did i read that properly? that when you are on social welfare you are allowed claim "holidays"?

fúcking heard it all now! :rolleyes:

"im on holidays, taking a break from sitting on my ass all day, maybe i might head into town and look for work"...

iguana

A Disgrace wrote: »

It's a couples rate right? As far as I know, if a married couple are both unemployed, one single payment is made (to the husband usually) and it is considerably less than if the two individuals were claiming seperately (something to do with the means testing of two people rather than one)

Yes it is. A family with 2 adults and 2 children gets less dole than 2 single people.

MaxyJazz

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

MaxyJazz wrote: »

Well I'm posting a cheque to Joe Murphy for €100 and he can spend it as he wishes fair play to him to protest on something he believes in...this government needs to realise that they can't pull the wool over our eyes no more,the amount of tax payers money wasted is just crazy,and it needs to start at the top...Phil hogan's quote when he was asked in 2009 to take a 10% pay cut on his estimated €200,000 salary & expences. Quote: “My personal circumstances don’t allow that at the moment"....yeah great example Phil keep up the good work.

Whats one mans waste is another mans necessity. Many people would argue that giving this man his normal payment would be wasteful since he was not seeking work.

The government are hardly pulling the wool over anyones eyes, or at least anyone who can do basic math. The government spends more than it takes in so it has to borrow the shortfall. Only the troika will lend to us so we have to play by their rules. There will be more tax increases and spending cuts and protests like Mr Murphys above will achieve nothing - simply because the books have to be balanced. People will suffer, but their is no alternative. People will moan about politicians salaries but that is ignoratio elenchi of the highest form. They are small beer compared to the big two, pay and welfare.

Yes that will mean people will be seriously worse off than before like Mr Murphy, but thems the breaks that life deals you. We'll just have to suck it up and move on.

Of course they are tryin to pull the wool over our eyes...So you want me to believe that the household charge fund will just go to local authority ?? Not a hope.
I agree with taxes...I pay them all except this household charge,im self employed and count myself lucky as I'm doing ok...I'm on a water meter and pay about €4,000 per year for it and also €5,000 of rates on my small business unit ..plus all the usual PRSI /VAT/USC plus income tax...I've no problem with that ...but enough is enough...freedom of information has showed me so much on government spending and salaries that Im disgusted at this "pay cap"
Have a good read on it then come back to me and tell me that this government isn't trying to pull wool over our eyes.

Millicent

xsiborg wrote: »

wait a minute, did i read that properly? that when you are on social welfare you are allowed claim "holidays"?

fúcking heard it all now! :rolleyes:

"im on holidays, taking a break from sitting on my ass all day, maybe i might head into town and look for work"...

So anyone on the dole is not allowed any enjoyment in their lives? Should we stick a fucking bell on them so we know who to spit on as they walk by?

What if they're going down the country somewhere to stay with family? Or dealing with an emergency that's going to be time consuming? Or scraping the pennies together to go away for a short while?

"Sitting on their ass all day"--what a lovely person you are. It sounds like you've never had to deal with the horrible realities of finding yourself unemployed and I sincerely hope you never will. That said, it might help to teach you some empathy.

oppenheimer1

MaxyJazz wrote: »

Of course they are tryin to pull the wool over our eyes...So you want me to believe that the household charge fund will just go to local authority ?? Not a hope.
I agree with taxes...I pay them all except this household charge,im self employed and count myself lucky as I'm doing ok...I'm on a water meter and pay about €4,000 per year for it and also €5,000 of rates on my small business unit ..plus all the usual PRSI /VAT/USC plus income tax...I've no problem with that ...but enough is enough...freedom of information has showed me so much on government spending and salaries that Im disgusted at this "pay cap"
Have a good read on it then come back to me and tell me that this government isn't trying to pull wool over our eyes.

I know what the government spends its money on. Yes the household charge will may as well go into the general government fund I agree, but does it matter? The household charge doesn't raise enough to cover the full cost of running the councils.

Enough is enough of what? The government doesn't take in enough money to meet its expenses so it needs to raise taxes and cut expenditure. The pay caps you mention are a tiny tiny drop in the ocean and you are getting hung up on a tiny detail whilst failing to see the bigger picture. General PS pay and welfare are the two big bills that need to be cut in order to achieve the deficit goals.

If you can't see that then the wool has been pulled over your eyes.

Alfasud

Biggins wrote: »

To be clear.
A person on the dole is entitled to a number of days 'off' but to be correct according to their dole receiving conditions, must in advance, notify their nearest social Security office of those desired days.

If he didn't in advance tell them of the days he was going to be 'unavailable' - technically he was indeed breaking their rules.
Now if it was done with a political bias really behind it - thats a whole worrying aspect altogether!

It sounds very like something one would expect from the Chinese Gov. but then Enda is mesmorised by them.

gsxr1

gsxr1 wrote: »

400 a week? If this is true I am very upset. I work 40 hours a week for 500 and have to support my family.

I would love to take a 100 cut and sit on my hole eating cornflakes .


Please tell me its not true that non working feckers are getting as much working feckers.

fecking hell.

iguana wrote: »

The dole and ancillary benefits, like rent allowance, are very generous here. A lot of low to mid level earners would be financially better off on the dole at the moment if they do not have a mortgage and can find a suitable rental property within the rent allowance limits.

This country is truly in trouble when not only do I have to support the dole with a large cut of my own money, but also find out that the dole people make as much as me.( or very near it)

It needs cut to bits in the budget. I am very angry right now.

Never thought I would ever say that. But there you go. I was on it, but got 180 then it was cut to 130 and then to 30 because my missis got up of her hole and got a job. As I soon did also. Thats the difference between lazy feckers and life long dole leeches.
Instead of going for long walks , we are at work.

I should be better off that those who do not work. Not the other way around.

Why would that Lazy Donegal fecker ever want to work again? :mad:

Smidge

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Voluntary work is against the rules unless its approved by the Welfare office. There are also restrictions on the amount of time you can spend volunteering afaik.

Welfare is not there to provide cheap labour for charities. Its there as a safety net for people who find themselves out of work so that they can maintain a basic standard of living whilst looking for work.

Is this not what the Jobridge is doing?
Except instead of helping a charity it is private enterprises who benefit from free labour?

Pottler

I think the big thing to take from all this is that people have to apply "FOR TIME OFF FROM BEING ON THE DOLE", I am now breaking my hole laughing, rolling around, trying to reach up and press a key every now and then between kinks. There is no emoticon thing made to express how feckin funny I find that. I thought the whole point of dole was you were, err, fecking OFF FROM WORK, like, on a fairly permanent basis????

oppenheimer1

mishkalucy wrote: »

[/B]

Is this not what the Jobridge is doing?
Except instead of helping a charity it is private enterprises who benefit from free labour?

Yes it is. Job bridge is being abused by a lot of employers.

MaxyJazz

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

MaxyJazz wrote: »

Of course they are tryin to pull the wool over our eyes...So you want me to believe that the household charge fund will just go to local authority ?? Not a hope.
I agree with taxes...I pay them all except this household charge,im self employed and count myself lucky as I'm doing ok...I'm on a water meter and pay about €4,000 per year for it and also €5,000 of rates on my small business unit ..plus all the usual PRSI /VAT/USC plus income tax...I've no problem with that ...but enough is enough...freedom of information has showed me so much on government spending and salaries that Im disgusted at this "pay cap"
Have a good read on it then come back to me and tell me that this government isn't trying to pull wool over our eyes.

I know what the government spends its money on. Yes the household charge will may as well go into the general government fund I agree, but does it matter? The household charge doesn't raise enough to cover the full cost of running the councils.

Enough is enough of what? The government doesn't take in enough money to meet its expenses so it needs to raise taxes and cut expenditure. The pay caps you mention are a tiny tiny drop in the ocean and you are getting hung up on a tiny detail whilst failing to see the bigger picture. General PS pay and welfare are the two big bills that need to be cut in order to achieve the deficit goals.

If you can't see that then the wool has been pulled over your eyes.

tiny or not they are wrong,they should get their house in order and tighten their belts first and show example to the public.
Or do we learn from Phil Hogan and copy him? Pot kettle black

xsiborg

Millicent wrote: »

So anyone on the dole is not allowed any enjoyment in their lives?

it's a welfare payment for unemployment, where is the logic in giving "holiday" payments to a person who is unemployed?

Millicent wrote: »

Should we stick a fucking bell on them so we know who to spit on as they walk by?

i dont know how in hell you extrapolated that from my post?

Millicent wrote: »

What if they're going down the country somewhere to stay with family? Or dealing with an emergency that's going to be time consuming?

they should inform their local social welfare office?

Millicent wrote: »

Or scraping the pennies together to go away for a short while?

this would surely then make them unavailable to take up work, but you've raised an interesting point that would indicate that if someone is able to save money when they are on social welfare, then they are getting too much! it's supposed to be merely a payment that allows you to sustain yourself or your family from week to week, or from one payment to the next.

Millicent wrote: »

"Sitting on their ass all day"--what a lovely person you are.

i apologise if that came across as flippant, it was merely meant tongue in cheek, as the small minority of those claiming social welfare who actually DO sit at home on their ass all day, are the ones who get the most exposure, as opposed to the majority that are out every day and actively looking for work, to get off social welfare.

Millicent wrote: »

It sounds like you've never had to deal with the horrible realities of finding yourself unemployed and I sincerely hope you never will. That said, it might help to teach you some empathy.

Millicent i actually HAVE had to deal with the harsh reality of finding myself unemployed, on many occasions in my life, i've also had to deal with the harsh reality of being self-employed and not having taken a holiday in four years, and the odd occasion that i take time off to take my son down to the park for a game of football, i have to try and avoid the able bodied layabouts who spend their days drinking in the park instead of actively looking for work or even so much as picking their cans up after themselves!

i do not envy anyone on social welfare, nor do i begrudge it to anybody who genuinely needs it, i understand fully the meaning of social responsibility and helping the vulnerable in our society, i know many people who are on social welfare who i would love to give them a job in the morning if i could afford to, but i cannot because i pay so much in taxes and so on.

i hope you can understand that it's very hard to empathise with anyone on social welfare that is unwilling to better themselves or "screw the system", etc, because if i was able to come back from social welfare many times, so should these young and able bodied people.

fine, one might argue that there are no jobs, but in the meantime as has already been suggested in this thread, even for these people apply to do voluntary work would at least be something, at least to keep them motivated and keep their brain from turning to mush (believe me, i DO know only too well how soul destroying and demotivating it can be to have rejection letters come in the post every, single, day!), and at least they will have something to get up for in the morning, to keep their minds occupied, even training or upskilling themselves.

as adults they should know by now that we all have to do things we dont like in order to provide for ourselves, provide for our families, pay the bills, put some savings aside for retirement, and THEN maybe think about being able to afford a holiday or some of the nicer things in life.

please can i just say before you make the argument for the elderly, disabled, or other exceptional circumstances that would prevent a person from working, that they are just that- exceptional circumstances, that would be evaluated on a means tested basis. it doesnt mean that the person cannot contribute to society in some other way, they just need to explore these avenues for themselves, as nobody else is going to do it for them.

im all for helping anyone i see making an effort and at least TRYING, as distinct from the tiny minority that seem to get the most exposure in the media and are therefore causing society to tar all unemployed people with the same brush, which is where i think you were coming from with that incredible extrapolation.

yore

trooney wrote: »

With the advent of mobile technology you can be actively seeking work from any geographical location in the country (once you have a signal). Do they deduct SW payments for when you are asleep (and not actively seeking work)?

Extend that logic to include someone going to UK for a few days for a holiday. Then extend it to the person staying over there to "look for work" over there too. Then extend it to the student that fecks off backpacking around Thailand for a few months. Are you seriously suggesting they should get dole by claiming they are checking their email on their iphone every day for jobs?

This is the reason why people on the dole get "holidays". If they aren't looking for work, then they have a holiday. They get a finite number of holidays so they can't gto on an extended holiday, or even just emmigrate and claim to be still here looking for work.

And in fairness, unless I picked up something wrong, they docked him for 4 days and the local staff gave him 320 to make up for this loss. That's 80 quid a day * 365 days = 29k a year. A married person making 34k takes home about this much a year according to http://www.redoaktaxrefunds.ie/budget-calculator-ireland .

My question is, how did those workers just arbitrarily decide to give this man 320 Euro? Can they do this? Who is checking this?



Edit: Sorry, it was 310. Still the points hold. That still comes to over 28k a year

K-9

iguana wrote: »

No but people with children and dependant spouses pay less tax than their single equivalents.

What tax you pay is irrelevant to an employer, PAYE is an employee deduction, none of their business.

DonQuay1

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Sounds too conspiracy theoy to me. He was on telly publicly showing he wasn't available for work. Tough luck but if them's the rules.

Agreed. You either want to work - or walk. I hope all the lads outside the central bank for months - before running home to mammys house every night for din dins and bed - were all cut in their dole too .....

conorhal

dvpower wrote: »

You're sick of the state because they don't send social welfare officers out to tackle gangland crime?

If you were a social welfare officer, would you call around to the the McCarthys and the Dundons?

When a social welfare officer signed a letter ending his dole payments, Cahill immediately had the man shot in both legs. Here was a civil servant simply doing his job - the decision to stop the dole had been made at a higher level - but that sort of logic was lost on a thug like Martin Cahill. He didn’t take kindly to personal slights.

If what you're saying is that the law (and people on this thread seem to be real sticklers for it in the case of this man) only applies to 'the little people', well isn't that a depressing state of affairs, and surely one of the reasons why people are so justifiably angry?

If however you're suggesting that the only way to axe the tax and force the government to listen is to knee-cap Phil Hogan, well there's a suggestion that I could get behind!

fishy fishy

toexpress wrote: »

Well on that basis they are just as screwed because it offends me that I pay a tax bill so that someone can head off and get a nice bottle of Voddie in Aldi for €10 and then behave in a way that is just not acceptable, end up in court, costing money to the state for both court time and legal aid

you tell us this NOW, on GOOD FRIDAY, try to be a bit more considerate next time and let people know about this excellent deal on a day they can purchase it. I'm sure lots of people on the dole would be very delighted to hear this. Beats Dunnes, hands down.

oh, I hope it keeps fine for you with your little business an your "I'm alright Jack" attitude. i'd say you'll get a fine round of applause from all those you insult, when it goes belly up for you.

dvpower

conorhal wrote: »

If what you're saying is that the law (and people on this thread seem to be real sticklers for it in the case of this man) only applies to 'the little people', well isn't that a depressing state of affairs, and surely one of the reasons why people are so justifiably angry?

If however you're suggesting that the only way to axe the tax and force the government to listen is to knee-cap Phil Hogan, well there's a suggestion that I could get behind!

No. I'm suggesting that ordinary public servants shouldn't have to risk their lives to do their jobs.

You failed to answer the question I put btw.

Biggins

Getting slightly back on track of my original post, I find it concerning that out of all the 20+ (maybe a lot more involved giving additional support) people walking on the mans protest march, only he was reportedly penalised for his involvement/action.

If we are to trust media reports, he was joined by others that was unemployed also - were they punished?
So far, there has been no word to say they have.
Who was punished? Just the organiser!

They all set out from one particular area.
I'm assuming (again, could be wrong) that at least the majority of those that joined him on this march, were from the same area and as such would be signing at the same area dole offices?
Why was he singled out then for punishment - maybe besides he being an organiser?

This is a worrying aspect for me.

Again, he did NOT do himself any favours if he didn't clear his days off previously - but if all of those on the march who didn't do similar, yet they were let off unpunished - his received punishment handed down by the state, smacks of clear victimisation against one person where all should (if equally guilty) be treated in the same respect.

fishy fishy

I cannot understand why he would have had to clear his days. He never said he was unavailable for work. I'm sure if he was offered a job he would have headed straight back.

He was still available for work.

did he get offered/called about a job on the days he was away

if he goes to a different county to visit relatives, would that be considered "unavailable" for work.

The had no grounds to do this - unless he stated he would be unavailable.

At least let them be fair and tell everyone on the dole that they must sit at their house by the phone at all times awaiting a call for work. If they venture out at all, it mean they are unavailable and can be docked.

What nonsense.

44leto

Its sending out a message we are getting tough on dole cheats, a zero tolerance, I am all for this, pity this is the man who was made an example of. I could certainly point towards some more suitable candidates as I am certain to say, all of us could.

Biggins

44leto wrote: »

Its sending out a message we are getting tough on dole cheats, a zero tolerance, I am all for this, pity this is the man who was made an example of. I could certainly point towards some more suitable candidates as I am certain to say, all of us could.

Thats partly my point.
(I'm all for seeing dole cheats seeing right punishment)
If the dole office involved wanted to punish all those on the march that broke the rules (if we like them or not) then ALL should have been punished.
They were all together on the march. It wouldn't have been rocket science to send a message by being fairer (via public view) by giving all any possible rule breakers, a deduction across each one - but they didn't.
They just punished the organiser!
I'd like to know why they just picked on him in particular.
It concerns me that someone in a state department can (a) over look the rest and (b) single out a person in such a way that it might look like he's being picked on just because he was the organiser and speaking out against the present government!

If the latter is clearly the case, who's next to be singled out for speaking against the state?

44leto

Biggins wrote: »

Thats partly my point.
(I'm all for seeing dole cheats seeing right punishment)
If the dole office involved wanted to punish all those on the march that broke the rules (if we like them or not) then ALL should have been punished.
They were all together on the march. It wouldn't have been rocket science to send a message by being fairer (via public view) by giving all any possible rule breakers, a deduction across each one - but they didn't.
They just punished the organiser!
I'd like to know why they just picked on him in particular.
It concerns me that someone in a state department can (a) over look the rest and (b) single out a person in such a way that it might look like he's being picked on just because he was the organiser and speaking out against the present government!

If the latter is clearly the case, who's next to be singled out for speaking against the state?

Simple really,,they knew his name, it was published, the others on the march were numbers but anonymous.

But all get the message.

Its like speed traps and drink driving tests your chances of getting caught are slim, there are only 14,000 guards who have to patrol all of Ireland. But catch as many as you can in opportune places and that sends out a warning to all the others to alter their behaviour. The risk isn't worth it. ETC

conorhal

dvpower wrote: »

No. I'm suggesting that ordinary public servants shouldn't have to risk their lives to do their jobs.

You failed to answer the question I put btw.

In answer to your question, if it was my job, yes I would, backed up by the Guards of course as that would be a necessary precaution.

What I'd refuse to do is dock this man's dole payment for having the temerity to peacefully protest against the state.
The example I cited should tell you all you need to know about the attitude of the state to it’s citizens, which is pretty much ‘fvck the little guy, he’ll take it’, and because he will, we won’t have to make the hard choices to tackle the golden circles, be the political, criminal or professional. They won’t dock bankers bonuses, they wont ask where travelers on the dole get a hundred grand to spend on a wedding ir why some consultants earn half a million quid, but if the masses who’s pockets they are picking to keep their gravy train on the rails get uppity, they come down on a ton of bricks deploying tactics that a Chinese autocrat or Russian premier would be proud of.
This government REALLY don’t want the ‘little guy’ getting any ideas above his station about his betters.

Biggins

44leto wrote: »

Simple really,,they knew his name, it was published, the others on the march were numbers but anonymous.

But all get the message.

You could be right to be fair.
Sadly however, by their singling out action, it certainly comes across to some as possible political victimisation - and the possibility of that arising is never a good thing to see.

44leto

Biggins wrote: »

You could be right to be fair.
Sadly however, by their singling out action, it certainly comes across to some as possible political victimisation - and the possibility of that arising is never a good thing to see.

True and in truth because I worked in similar bureaucracy's a move like this seldom comes directly from the head. But from a junior petty official obeying the rules from a new policy which came down from the head to a T,with little common sense.

The gravy train has to be stopped, I know people abusing it forever, I mean they drew the dole all their lives and worked but never paid income tax or a stamp. That is their lifestyle.