Sweden crying out for engineers and IT people. Where's all the Irish?

Phill Ewinn

Teh government should set up a coder dojo scheme for adults. Such simple ideas that cost a fraction of the IT ''degrees'' derp that Irish unis are pushing on the unemployed and broke people.

Helix

salonfire wrote: »

That guy from Havok is peddling total bullsh1t.

Irish IT grads come from the same background, have the same work ethic, come from the same universities as grads in Engineering, Medicine, Nursing, Business, Maths, etc

Why is it that Irish IT grads are so bad?
Are Irish Medicine grads bad as well? Have we Nursing grads going round accidently killing people?


I have the feeling that something else is at play when IT grads are always being talked down

they're not getting taught by the same people though. obviously any issue with IT grads being so bad that they're not being hired by arguably ireland's biggest technological export means that the level of teaching is to blame

i doubt they've any reason to pedal bull about this. theyre a big enough company not to care where they get their staff from

biko

franciebellew wrote: »

With the huge demand for engineers, programmers and IT specialists in Sweden I'm surprised there's no Irish coming over?

Is it the same back home? Is everyone working in these professions?

Source?
Sweden currently has a 7.5% unemployment rate (half of Ireland's) but that's overall.

Red_Wake

Chuchoter wrote: »

I hate all this ****e about computer engineering jobs and how great they are. Sure, maybe the starting salaries are great when your starting, but they more or less stay that way the more experience you get and its barely enough to keep a family going.

What company do you work for?:eek:

I've got one raise so far this year, and can expect 2 more this year.

longhalloween

What's the best way to get the skills and training required for these jobs?

wes

Chuchoter wrote: »

I hate all this ****e about computer engineering jobs and how great they are. Sure, maybe the starting salaries are great when your starting, but they more or less stay that way the more experience you get and its barely enough to keep a family going.

I am earning nearly twice what I started on, so I have no idea what your talking about.

titan18

salonfire wrote: »

That guy from Havok is peddling total bullsh1t.

Irish IT grads come from the same background, have the same work ethic, come from the same universities as grads in Engineering, Medicine, Nursing, Business, Maths, etc

Why is it that Irish IT grads are so bad?
Are Irish Medicine grads bad as well? Have we Nursing grads going round accidently killing people?


I have the feeling that something else is at play when IT grads are always being talked down

Nah, it's true. I'm in college atm and some of our lecturers are a bit useless. Most of my class (final year) can't program, and due to bell curve marking, you just need to be better than them to get a 1H. I'm actually good though thankfully

Also I'm available for work if anyone has IT work in Cork. I have experience with C#, Android, Web development/design and have done some testing on placement last summer

jester77

jester77 wrote: »

Any experience with capybara rspec/cucumber and selenium/webdriver?

No, no experience in any of those. It was manual testing, not automated at all. Not very efficient I know...


Btw, I got one PM!

token101

srsly78 wrote: »

But after that when you flip out and start killing people the prison/hospital they put you in will be really nice and have saunas etc.

Or you could save your dole money for a year, go to Thailand and ride everything you see.

Whatever, I'll be at Moes.

srsly78

Chuchoter wrote: »

I hate all this ****e about computer engineering jobs and how great they are. Sure, maybe the starting salaries are great when your starting, but they more or less stay that way the more experience you get and its barely enough to keep a family going.

You're doing it wrong.

Overflow

salonfire wrote: »

I am available to work in IT. I'd be willing to move anywhere for a job at this stage.

I have 3 years testing experience with good SQL skills.

Anyone working for those companies can just shoot me a PM :cool:



/awaits flood of PMs

I came to Norway 6 years ago, after finishing a 3 year diploma in Multimedia and a Comptia A+ and Networks+ FAS course. Zero work experience. I had a job within 2 months as a Junior Dev. Now im working as the Chief Systems Architect and IT Manager for a offshore shipping company. I had 4 different jobs since arriving here and all this through the 'recession'.

There are so many IT job opportunities in Scandinavia right now, you just have to go for it.

Not being able to speak the native language has never been a problem for me, so dont worry about that.

Mr Benevolent

Put it like this. I'm paid €25k in Ireland for cloud CRM support. I'm certified and know a lot more than the people who call me - and they're the system admins. In the UK the same job pays €50k inc 10% bonus, health insurance, creche vouchers, gym membership... the list goes on. In the rest of Europe the pay is even higher. I'm setting up a consultancy here, none of the Irish customers have anywhere to turn for help, especially since phone support is being withdrawn.

Bogger77

titan18 wrote: »

Nah, it's true. I'm in college atm and some of our lecturers are a bit useless. Most of my class (final year) can't program, and due to bell curve marking, you just need to be better than them to get a 1H. I'm actually good though thankfully

Also I'm available for work if anyone has IT work in Cork. I have experience with C#, Android, Web development/design and have done some testing on placement last summer

http://careers.mcafee.com/search?q=cork

MysticalRain

Helix wrote: »

isnt the standard of irish IT graduates seen as being fairly abysmal these days? i remember in an interview i did with one of the guys from Havok where he essentially said that the standard is so poor in ireland they'll rarely entertain any irish applicants

I would be very cautious about taking what you read about the IT industry in the Irish media complete at face value. Given the nature of their business, what Havoc are really looking for is not so much programmers as math/physics geeks. Those kinds of graduates are always going to be in short supply no matter where a company is located.

I heard another employer complaining to the media a while ago that he couldn’t find IT grads to work for his company. But what did he expect when his location was…Kinsale of all places? Not too many people willing to relocate down there these days.

Helix

MysticalRain wrote: »

I would be very cautious about taking what you read about the IT industry in the Irish media complete at face value.

well, technically i didnt read it - i wrote it

LorraineMcFly

its the language barrier i think. Irish people dont speak Swedish. If english was spoken there as standard id say we would be gone in our droves

syklops

longhalloween wrote: »

What's the best way to get the skills and training required for these jobs?

Google and a bit of effort.

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

If english was spoken there as standard id say we would be gone in our droves

For the most part it is. Same for all of europe. Practically everyone below the age of forty can speak at least some level of English.

Robdude

I'm very confused about the world's IT supply.

According to Ireland's government - Ireland has a shortage of skilled IT workers. IT jobs are one of the handful of jobs you can get a Green Card for without passing the labour test and without earning 60k.

Sweden also has an IT shortage.

Why would people flock from Ireland to Sweden if they both have a shortage?

Officially, there is also an IT shortage in the United States; and they have their H1-B Visa program to streamline talent entering the US.

And then, unofficially, no matter which country I'm in (from the US, working in Dublin, in IT) the natives insist that there is no shortage and that wages are depressed because there are too many people in the industry.

LorraineMcFly

syklops wrote: »

Google and a bit of effort.




For the most part it is. Same for all of europe. Practically everyone below the age of forty can speak at least some level of English.

Yes but in the work place swedish is spoken 99 per cent of the time. Been to Sweden a few times and people can speak in English to get by but everyone i met speaks swedish in work

yosser hughes

Domo230 wrote: »

Worked in IT, did Computer science and am glad I do not work in IT any more.


I worked enough CS jobs to know that I am happier with a different job. On a plus side no matter where I have ended up, having programming skills on my cv has helped me a bit. I would rather be ****ing awesome at the low paying job I love than be **** at a high paying job I detest.

What are you dong now Domo? Is it IT related at all?I used to work in IT and left for probably the same reasons you did.However I'm now getting back in to it,but more on the software side as opposed to the hardware/networking side that i was in.

haminka

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

Yes but in the work place swedish is spoken 99 per cent of the time. Been to Sweden a few times and people can speak in English to get by but everyone i met speaks swedish in work

I think it's really cheeky from the Swedes to speak Swedish in Sweden. It's time for them to cop on and understand that English is the language of future!
Seriously, people, what's the problem with learning foreign languages? You get grads crying that they can't get a job. You tell them, here, Sweden, Germany, whatever, all looking for IT people, even grads. The reply? But but but - the language! Well, if you want to be able to understand what your colleagues are saying during their coffee break, learn the bloody language! Half of the world is learning English, why are the English speakers so lazy?

skyhighflyer

stupidusername wrote: »

when I asked why they were looking for an intern (JobBridge) they said purely financial reasons, they wanted someone good but couldn't afford to pay them.

Fcuking hate this attitude on the part of employers :mad: Guess what, I'd like a Ferrari. Can't afford to buy one though :rolleyes:

haminka

token101 wrote: »

Their women are the business. But after the inevitable rejection for being amongst the ugliest people in the country, it would get dark at lunchtime, the offy would be closed, and you would be forced to trudge home in the dark through 6 feet of snow, sober as a judge. After the first month the boredom would make you mentally ill, and it wouldn't be much consolation that the healthcare is free.

I spent one of my most beautiful summer vacations in Sweden. The nature is breathtaking, we took plenty of walks, near the lakes, could just imagine how great it could be in winter. It's a great country, if you like nature and don't think you need to spend most of your weekend as a booze pickle.

Pure_Cork

MysticalRain wrote: »

I would be very cautious about taking what you read about the IT industry in the Irish media complete at face value. Given the nature of their business, what Havoc are really looking for is not so much programmers as math/physics geeks. Those kinds of graduates are always going to be in short supply no matter where a company is located.

I heard another employer complaining to the media a while ago that he couldn’t find IT grads to work for his company. But what did he expect when his location was…Kinsale of all places? Not too many people willing to relocate down there these days.

If someone isn't prepared to move to a beautiful place like Kinsale, only half an hour from a city, in search of work then they're not hungry for work or just plain stupid in my opinion. ****ing hell like. Any recent graduate that I know working in a good job now was prepared to move anywhere for work, they didn't just apply for jobs within a 1km radius of their mam's tits.

yosser hughes

haminka wrote: »

I think it's really cheeky from the Swedes to speak Swedish in Sweden. It's time for them to cop on and understand that English is the language of future!
Seriously, people, what's the problem with learning foreign languages? You get grads crying that they can't get a job. You tell them, here, Sweden, Germany, whatever, all looking for IT people, even grads. The reply? But but but - the language! Well, if you want to be able to understand what your colleagues are saying during their coffee break, learn the bloody language! Half of the world is learning English, why are the English speakers so lazy?

I agree haminka,people really need to improve their language skills and there has been enormous failure in our education system in this regard.
I am currently trying to learn German, but it isn't easy and certainly not something that can be done quickly. Living in the country where the language is spoken is obviously the way to go.It's hard to learn a language when you're living in Ireland.
Do you have any hints/suggestions on learning languages by the way?
Thanks.

syklops

Robdude wrote: »

I'm very confused about the world's IT supply.

According to Ireland's government - Ireland has a shortage of skilled IT workers. IT jobs are one of the handful of jobs you can get a Green Card for without passing the labour test and without earning 60k.

Sweden also has an IT shortage.

Why would people flock from Ireland to Sweden if they both have a shortage?

Officially, there is also an IT shortage in the United States; and they have their H1-B Visa program to streamline talent entering the US.

And then, unofficially, no matter which country I'm in (from the US, working in Dublin, in IT) the natives insist that there is no shortage and that wages are depressed because there are too many people in the industry.

You have to remember the IT industry is the biggest industry there is nowadays, with a myriad of specialist areas. So one company cant get enough DBAs and so there is a shortage, and so to people at the top or in politics this translates into a shortage of IT people(because IT is all the same right). Another country can't get enough testers, so again this translates into a shortage of IT people. The fact of the matter is, IT people as a whole don't exist. A Network Engineer cant turn his hands to software development over night, and vice versa. A skilled dev may not necessarily have the right aptitude for Quality Assurance etc etc.

Yes but in the work place swedish is spoken 99 per cent of the time. Been to Sweden a few times and people can speak in English to get by but everyone i met speaks swedish in work

Its mostly the same over here. Despite it being all american companies I worked in, Czech was spoken by all the Czech workers first. If they came to me and don't know I am Irish they start in Czech and i say can we switch to English and they do. It hasn't hindered me in any way. In fact many will prefer to talk to you in English once they know you are a native speaker because they want to improve their English. This is my experience from the Czech Republic, I am not saying Swedes are the same, but I would be surprised if they are much different.

haminka

yosser hughes wrote: »

I agree haminka,people really need to improve their language skills and there has been enormous failure in our education system in this regard.
I am currently trying to learn German, but it isn't easy and certainly not something that can be done quickly. Living in the country where the language is spoken is obviously the way to go.It's hard to learn a language when you're living in Ireland.
Do you have any hints/suggestions on learning languages by the way?
Thanks.

Practice is the most important thing. Just don't be ashamed and try to speak as much as possible. Read the newspapers, listen to their news, try to cover all areas of life.
Whereabouts do you live? Post on your county forum looking for German speakers in your particular area, maybe they would be interested in meeting you?
I am fluent in German myself, also English and found it the best to just put aside all the hang ups I had about making a fool of myself by making mistakes and just went and started speaking and writing and I read a lot and paid attention to how the native speakers were expressing themselves and it helped a lot. What helped me most was to start thinking in that language. If you want to express yourself in German, think in German, don't translate.

BostonB

There generally a shortage of skilled and experienced IT staff. Mainly because most IT companies don't train people. They just skim the best people off the top. As a result those at the bottom of the ladder find it hard to get work, those at the top have no problem. That said while wages are better than average, they are not at Y2K levels yet, I'm guessing. As if you pay enough people would move from anywhere.

Dboy85

All this talk about shortages in Ireland is just so ceos can hire my Indian buddy with more experience and wayy lower wage demands. There are plenty of good developers in Ireland but nobody willing to pay them. In regards to Scandinavian work, I'm in Norway I have basic Norsk but they are all fluent in English. Its polite to learn a working knowledge of the native language though just for culture reasons. Plenty of work over here with higher salaries but the cost of living is higher. I'm not even finished college yet, its an intern position, but I have been asked to stay and have had a few other offers on the table.

Mr Benevolent

haminka wrote: »

I spent one of my most beautiful summer vacations in Sweden. The nature is breathtaking, we took plenty of walks, near the lakes, could just imagine how great it could be in winter. It's a great country, if you like nature and don't think you need to spend most of your weekend as a booze pickle.

The cost of living is enough to make your eyes water and the alcohol is ridiculously expensive. Add to it a self-righteousness that's a sight to behold and Sweden is a very boring place if you don't like forests, lake and silence.

haminka

MysticalRain wrote: »

I would be very cautious about taking what you read about the IT industry in the Irish media complete at face value. Given the nature of their business, what Havoc are really looking for is not so much programmers as math/physics geeks. Those kinds of graduates are always going to be in short supply no matter where a company is located.

I heard another employer complaining to the media a while ago that he couldn’t find IT grads to work for his company. But what did he expect when his location was…Kinsale of all places? Not too many people willing to relocate down there these days.

I assume you were ironic? The employer should move closer to where IT grads live because they won't be able to work without having their mum preparing their lunch boxes and tuck them in? Any IT grad - and let's just for once assume the vast majority aren't dads or mums with kids going to school, mortgages etc. - who whinges about not having a job and then refusing a job offer because it's not in the close radius of where he/she lives should have their benefits cuts unless they have a very valid reason for not being able to relocate.

srsly78

haminka wrote: »

I assume you were ironic? The employer should move closer to where IT grads live because they won't be able to work without having their mum preparing their lunch boxes and tuck them in? Any IT grad - and let's just for once assume the vast majority aren't dads or mums with kids going to school, mortgages etc. - who whinges about not having a job and then refusing a job offer because it's not in the close radius of where he/she lives should have their benefits cuts unless they have a very valid reason for not being able to relocate.

It's more likely the pay was ****. Same story with Havok. They have outrageous job requirements, but aren't willing to pay market rate for it. Consider the fact that Havok compete directly with investment banks for that skillset.

haminka

srsly78 wrote: »

It's more likely the pay was ****. Same story with Havok. They have outrageous job requirements, but aren't willing to pay market rate for it. Consider the fact that Havok compete directly with investment banks for that skillset.

If you are an IT grad complaining about not being able to get any job at all, why not take a job that would nicely fill up your CV? After a year or two you can start looking for something that pays nicely but at least you are not sitting at home and when someone tells you : so, what's your job experience, the answer would be a real company and not a shoulder shrug. They just left the school so either they have jobs coming their way and then it's happy days or they don't and then they should take one and consider it a working experience while they have no families depending on the salaries they bring home.

haminka

Domo230 wrote: »

Youve clearly never met many computer programmers :P

Most of the IT work I was ever involved in could have been done via telecommuting imo.

Best way to live would be find a tropical island in the pacific where standards of living are really low (like live as a king for 500 euro low) and telecommute to work while enjoying your high Irish standard IT salary.

Now that's living like a boss.

I work in IT and while my job is not really IT geeky, my other half is a SW architect. A tropical island would be nice though ...

srsly78

Already looked into it. Tropical islands have the strictest immigration laws in the world. They only want tourists, not immigrants. I telecommute to work in London, dunno why I still live in Ireland at all

haminka

srsly78 wrote: »

Already looked into it. Tropical islands have the strictest immigration laws in the world. They only want tourists, not immigrants. I telecommute to work in London, dunno why I still live in Ireland at all

You like the weather, the people and the sheep on the fields. London simply doesn't cut it ...

stupidusername

I moved to dublin to up my chances of getting a job. there's hardly nothing going in the rest of the country, at least here there's things to apply for. i'm not moving again.

Dboy85

stupidusername wrote: »

I moved to dublin to up my chances of getting a job. there's hardly nothing going in the rest of the country, at least here there's things to apply for. i'm not moving again.

Germany is crying out for developers, especially in Munich. Why not emigrate for the sake of building your CV. Come home like a champ in 2-5 years and live comfortably.

MysticalRain

Pure_Cork wrote: »

If someone isn't prepared to move to a beautiful place like Kinsale, only half an hour from a city, in search of work then they're not hungry for work or just plain stupid in my opinion. ****ing hell like. Any recent graduate that I know working in a good job now was prepared to move anywhere for work, they didn't just apply for jobs within a 1km radius of their mam's tits.

The guy from Kinsale was talking about attracting experienced IT people, not grads with zero experience. So it's a big ask for people living in other parts of the country to move to Cork if it involves convincing partners to quit their jobs so they can move too, yanking kids out of schools, and/or selling their house if they have one.

Fresh grads with no partners, kids or mortgages are obviously a lot more mobile. But that guy in Cork is still fighting against the laws of statistics in that there will always be a certain proportion of graduates who are neither willing or able to move to the more rural parts of Ireland outside of the big smoke.

Dostoevsky

stupidusername wrote: »

I moved to dublin to up my chances of getting a job. there's hardly nothing going in the rest of the country, at least here there's things to apply for. i'm not moving again.

I assume there's loads going there then!

Ellis Dee

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

its the language barrier i think. Irish people dont speak Swedish. If english was spoken there as standard id say we would be gone in our droves

Actually, Swedish is probably the easiest language for an English speaker to learn. No noun cases, no verb declensions and a vocabulary that overlaps considerably with that of English. I was able to get by in Swedish after a couple of months in Stockholm. There are excellent courses for immigrants.:cool:

The only real problem is that so many Swedish people speak good English and are eager to do so, with the result that it's not easy for a foreigner to practise speaking Swedish.:)

As for high taxes, what really matters is what you have in your pocket after them, and that's a good lot in Sweden. In return for the high taxes, you get a lot back by way of services, infrastructure, education, health care, and will be well looked after if you become too sick to earn a living, something that hopefully won't hapen to you.

If you are an outdoors type, the outdoor amenities in Sweden are superb, winter or summer, and there's plenty to do in big cities as well once you start getting a grasp on the language and orient yourself.:)

stupidusername

Dostoevsky wrote: »

I assume there's loads going there then!

what?

starlit

Domo230 wrote: »

No I work in marketing. I do have to do the occasional piece of work to do on a computer but it's stuff most office workers could do on a computer (no programming). I spend a lot of my job actually talking to people and I am happy that I get to do that in this job.

Domo230, What area of Marketing are you in? Digital/Social Media?

token101 wrote: »

we also learned an apparently dead language that no one uses :rolleyes:

What programming language is that? vb? python?

So what is the major programming language that employers wish employees have then? What's the most popular or most commonly used programming language at the moment, that be big in?

markpb

Pure_Cork wrote: »

If someone isn't prepared to move to a beautiful place like Kinsale, only half an hour from a city, in search of work then they're not hungry for work or just plain stupid in my opinion. ****ing hell like.

You can take that approach if you like but the truth is that most IT jobs are and will be, in cities because that's where the majority of people are. Setting up in Kinsale and hoping to find enough suitable professionals in a town with a population of 2k is very naive.

You can't just set up a company anywhere and expect people to move there - it doesn't work like that.

Any recent graduate that I know working in a good job now was prepared to move anywhere for work, they didn't just apply for jobs within a 1km radius of their mam's tits.

Companies can't exist on graduates alone and a company hoping to employ sought-after IT graduates in a remote location are daft. If you're setting up a building company, maybe you'd have some hope there.

jaykay74

I moved to an IT job in Stockholm last year. Best move I ever made

NSNO

doovdela wrote: »

Domo230, What area of Marketing are you in? Digital/Social Media?



What programming language is that? vb? python?

So what is the major programming language that employers wish employees have then? What's the most popular or most commonly used programming language at the moment, that be big in?

Any half-decent programmer with a good degree/experience can pick up a programming language fairly easily in a couple of weeks. Employers want development experience, be that in enterprise or open-source contributions.

starlit

NSNO wrote: »

Any half-decent programmer with a good degree/experience can pick up a programming language fairly easily in a couple of weeks. Employers want development experience, be that in enterprise or open-source contributions.

Basically work experience in programming development and projects? Along with a various amount of skills in various programming languages not just having one or two in tow but a number of them.

Easy enough self learning programming languages just practise them you can learn them and the principles. Completing projects in your own time I suppose is handy to have done.

titan18

doovdela wrote: »

Domo230, What area of Marketing are you in? Digital/Social Media?



What programming language is that? vb? python?

So what is the major programming language that employers wish employees have then? What's the most popular or most commonly used programming language at the moment, that be big in?

If he did the same course as me, it's VB6. It was removed a year later from the course and VB.NET is thought from 1st year.

WillieFlynn

stupidusername wrote: »

jobs.ie, fas.ie, adverts.ie/jobs
they're pretty much all just showing the same jobs anyway. since i can't get an intern job I haven't bothered looking much at paid IT jobs tbh.

For computer jobs in Ireland monster.ie is the best site. http://ec.europa.eu/eures/ has some jobs trough out the EU but not so many IT ones.

BTW when I was looking for a job a couple of months ago (after my work was moved to Russia). I could have found work much quicker in Cork or Limerick, they find it very difficult to get IT staff, as most people in the industry have moved to Dublin over the years and settled, as there were better prospects.

starlit

titan18 wrote: »

If he did the same course as me, it's VB6. It was removed a year later from the course and VB.NET is thought from 1st year.

Oh right. I did VB a few years ago but it was with visual studio 5 not version 6 and VBA with MS access. So is VBA of any use these days?

One thing I get confused is what language is C is that VB, C Sharp and C++ are they both java?

I know there are more than one versions of Java which is a pain as the language changes a bit from time to time depending what version you programme.

Unix/Linux, PHP, CSS and HTML at least stay the same and don't change! Which is good news for me! Windows programming wouldn't be too bad mostly commands like linux. They be the languages I be best at the OS and Web programming languages though don't have Javascript and only touched on perl and python (not a fan of python or java!) Though java seems to be a must have along with other programming languages I've mentioned but depends on job in question. Each job spec can be slightly different.